Modern Day Communism Boils Away Oppression

[Farm Boy]

Gotsta win against them drugs.

 

[bhsup]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. You know it's illegal when you break the law, so I'm not exactly sympathetic towards those sitting in prison when they could have, you know, chosen to not be criminals.

 

[Borachio]

The question remains why so many Americans choose to be criminals. (Working with the assumption that they have.)

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. You know it's illegal when you break the law, so I'm not exactly sympathetic towards those sitting in prison when they could have, you know, chosen to not be criminals.

I have no problem with it particularly. Once a sufficient portion of the population has seen 'United States of America vs <your name here>' for the disenfranchised to reach critical mass the day of reckoning arrives. I just make sure the disenfranchised know that the people who printed 'United States of America' on that paper were absolutely not speaking for me, just in case it arrives in my lifetime.

 

[red_elk]

I heard conditions in the gulags were tough. Really tough. Like high mortality tough.

Yep, in peacetime tens of thousands per year. 2%-3% mortality.

I haven't heard the same of US prisons. (Although the incarcerations rates are indeed astonishingly high, and rising.)

Mortality 4-5 thousands a year, IIRC.

 

[Daw]

I heard conditions in the gulags were tough. Really tough. Like high mortality tough.

I haven't heard the same of US prisons. (Although the incarcerations rates are indeed astonishingly high, and rising.)

First, as, like I said, gulag is a management department, there were pretty fine conditions and just usual mortality level (apart that its 4 first "directors" were later arrested and put in front of a firing squad, and unknown number of personnel followed them or joined the prisoners). In the camps it managed though yes, it was tough and the mortality level was high.

But those were tough times to start with. Camps started in the Civil War, which lasted for 5 years, and left economy and infrastructure devastated by 1923. To make things worse there were poor crops for several years leading to famine. Before those got overcome completely WWII broke off. Then there was hard time to rebuild...

Under all those circumstances it's needless to say that prisoners were the last to be cared about, but first to be used as so desperately needed workforce.

However, attempts were made to improve their conditions, although for practical reasons rather than humanitarian ones. For instance, L.P.Beria (known for his cannibalism short of being literal) wrote on 09-Apr-1939 to V.M.Molotov asking to increase spending on prisoners welfare:

The NKVD GULag appointed ration of 2000 calories is designed for a sitting in jail and not working person. Practically, this already insufficient norm is supplied at only 65-70%. Therefore, a significant percentage of the camp's labor force is in the undernourished and useless at work people category. On March 1, 1939 useless in the camps and colonies were 200'000 people and therefore the total workforce is not above 60-65 percent.

WWII made conditions even tougher, in 1942-1943 mortality was up to 20% (other assessments place it up to 24%).

A large percentage of mortality falls on respiratory diseases and exhaustion; respiratory diseases are due to the fact that there are prisoners who go out to work poorly dressed and shod, barracks often because of a lack of fuel are not heated, resulting in the prisoners overcooled in open-air cannot not warm themselves in cold barracks, which brings up flu, pneumonia, and other respiratory diseases.

After the war conditions got better, and in 1948 the daily food ration was (in grams):

• Bread 700 (800 for the heavy jobs)
• Wheat flour 10
• Groats variety 110
• Pasta 10
• Meat 20
• Fish 60
• Fat 13
• Potatoes and vegetables 650
• Sugar 17
• Salt 20
• Tea surrogate 2
• Tomato puree 10
• Pepper 0.1
• Bay leaf 0.1

The gravest things there were, however, total corruption, embezzlement, and humiliations by personnel, plus no better internal hierarchy among convicts. Those things resulted in totally unbearable life conditions there indeed.

 

[timtofly]

The question remains why so many Americans choose to be criminals. (Working with the assumption that they have.)

Nobody expects to be caught when they have successfully avoided being caught on a regular basis. America is not a police state, but it may be slowly turning into one, because a lot of people have failed to police themselves and they do not expect to be caught when they are.

 

[bhsup]

One could possibly argue that most of the rest of the world just sucks at policing, even.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

One could possibly argue that most of the rest of the world just sucks at policing, even.

At this particular moment a fellow American saying 'the rest of the world sucks at policing' is pretty embarrassing.

 

[timtofly]

Would that mean that the rest of the world just sucks at being policed?

 

[Daw]

My long persisting opinion which I am unsure of but as well fail to convincingly outargue is that police is only needed to deal with personalities flaws which parenting and education failed to deal with. If it's true, the need for police is inversely proportional to parenting & education quality.

 

[Borachio]

I think there's much in what you say.

People who consistently and deliberately break the law are very often marginalized, poorly socialized individuals who think they have no real stake in the wider world.

Looking at the average criminal spending time in prison from time to time, the rewards for breaking the law are very often not that great and the costs can be very high, when you average it all over a lifetime.

On the other hand, there's a point of view that those who rise to the top of the pile are the real criminals - they're just not caught out very often. And in their case it definitely is worth it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think there's much in what you say.

People who consistently and deliberately break the law are very often marginalized, poorly socialized individuals who think they have no real stake in the wider world.

Looking at the average criminal spending time in prison from time to time, the rewards for breaking the law are very often not that great and the costs can be very high, when you average it all over a lifetime.

On the other hand, there's a point of view that those who rise to the top of the pile are the real criminals - they're just not caught out very often. And in their case it definitely is worth it.

You missed something there...they think that and they may very well be correct.

You look at the 'high costs' of spending time in prison...but the only costs of spending time in prison are opportunity costs. So when you look at it you see the cost based on opportunities that you would have available. That makes the 'expense' a variable, with an extremely wide range. That's the driving force behind recidivism being so high...someone who has been to prison has extremely limited opportunities, so for them the cost of going back to prison is very low.

 

[Borachio]

I don't agree. I think everyone has a real stake, and responsibility, in the wider world.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't agree. I think everyone has a real stake, and responsibility, in the wider world.

The question is...and not intended as an offense so please don't take offense...is that really your belief, or is your belief the very similar sounding but actually vastly different:

Everyone should have a real stake, and responsibility, in the wider world.

I agree totally with the latter, but the former would have to be proven to me because I am almost sure I could point to counter examples...en masse.

 

[timtofly]

The question is...and not intended as an offense so please don't take offense...is that really your belief, or is your belief the very similar sounding but actually vastly different:

Everyone should have a real stake, and responsibility, in the wider world.

I agree totally with the latter, but the former would have to be proven to me because I am almost sure I could point to counter examples...en masse.

Borachio is not wrong. The problem remains with those humans who do not share his view. Admitting that though would mean that people are "uninformed".

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Borachio is not wrong. The problem remains with those humans who do not share his view. Admitting that though would mean that people are "uninformed".

Look, you can tell people who don't believe they have a stake in the world that they 'really really do, and they need to be responsible too'...but last time I tried that kind of argument I lost, badly.

A single mother gets more support from the state than she can get from a husband with a slightly better than minimum wage job...meaning she is barely at the poverty line either way. What stake does the father have in his family, much less the world?

The military offers a good leg up out of the basement of the economy...as long as you don't mind the possibility your leaders might send you off to kill people who genuinely do not deserve it. If you have that bit of bloody mercenary work on your conscience what stake can you claim in the world?

Good jobs involve being a small cog in a big process that produces something mostly useless for people you never see to buy to keep themselves entertained. Is that a 'stake in the world'?

Most jobs aren't good jobs, and involve handing tacos to unappreciative jerks. Is that a 'stake in the world'?

Now, I believe that everyone should have a stake in the world. I also believe that every person I just described can shake themselves off and claim that they do indeed have a stake in the world right where they are, and then govern themselves accordingly. I also believe that if they do so, with great diligence and discipline, that it will pay off in ways they can't even imagine.

The problem is that it probably only will pay off in ways they can't imagine. It won't make them rich, or even comfortable probably. It won't mean they will not spend most of their life surrounded by jerks. The payoffs only become explainable after they start to come in.

So I personally have no compelling argument. When one of the people I described says 'it's easy for you to talk about 'having a stake in the world', but blah blah blah' there is really not much to say.

 

[timtofly]

I understand that it is a wrong educated from experience position that many people have concluded about life, and without annihilating them all, change has to start somewhere. Giving kids an early start and letting them experience how to use money wisely and productively would be the place I would go. Attempting to change the patterns of an adult is going to be harder. I may be wrong but most parents would hide the fact from their kids that it takes a government to make great citizens, because they want to take all the credit for themselves, and hide all their faults. Instead kids just grow up accepting the same thing and bad experiences their parents did without any change at all.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I understand that it is a wrong educated from experience position that many people have concluded about life, and without annihilating them all, change has to start somewhere. Giving kids an early start and letting them experience how to use money wisely and productively would be the place I would go. Attempting to change the patterns of an adult is going to be harder. I may be wrong but most parents would hide the fact from their kids that it takes a government to make great citizens, because they want to take all the credit for themselves, and hide all their faults. Instead kids just grow up accepting the same thing and bad experiences their parents did without any change at all.

I am admittedly not greatly successful...but...I have a suggestion.

Telling people they have drawn the wrong conclusion from their experience generally doesn't go far. Especially if they have a very strong feeling that your familiarity with their experience is best described as nil.

 

[bhavv]

Insert video of American police arrest innocent bystander and shoot his dog here.

OFC he was black too, might be a coincidence.