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Modern day conservatism boils down to the denial of oppression

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, Aug 15, 2014.

  1. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Okay. Seems like a great way to wallow in miscommunication, but go right ahead.

    I'll continue to use the words differently, and let other people's natural reading of the context allow them to understand the intent.
     
  2. Oruc

    Oruc Reactionary

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    Well self-declared progressives are always people I disagree, so you keep using it like that I'll keep pointing it out.
     
  3. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    What's the point? I already know you disagree.
     
  4. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    Ah, but do you know what he means by the word "disagree"? Perhaps, to someone who relishes ambiguity, it includes the meaning "agree."
     
  5. Oruc

    Oruc Reactionary

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    If we're going to start questioning the point of making posts, nobody would come here at all.
     
  6. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

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    Mostly he's picked subpar examples. I dislike the current breed of activists for increased school teacher pay in Chicago. They might have some other good things they want, but if and when they rustle for what I think is a badness, I don't like them and I'll get thrown in your little anti-activist spin.

    I love conservation. I love investments in green technology(lets see if we stop killing bats and lighting flying birds on fire, woot woot). I loathe some of the side issues that people tend to internalize as "environmental activism."

    I think I can even manage to be outraged at race relations in the US and still despise some black activists. This is the problem. People see the loud, annoying, and stupid activists. They get play and there are plenty of them to see. It's no different than people dumping on the loud, annoying, and stupid Christians they see. There are plenty of those to look at too. Dave isn't being any worse than any number of posters even here that like to dump on followers of the Jesus for the stupider of their brethren.
     
  7. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Or maybe just the people bound and determined to stymie conversation will post less?
    The majority of people whose posts I enjoy responding to could easily often answer the question "why did you post that?".

    Are you false flagging the self-identifying conservatives right now?
     
  8. Oruc

    Oruc Reactionary

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    I did answer that, you chose to ignore it. Progress is an ideology there is more meaning behind the word then simply "change I like" or people would not define themselves as progressives.
    So don't pretend I'm the problem.

    I'm not conservative
     
  9. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Liberalism.
    Spoiler :
    :D
     
  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Progress is not an ideology, it's a noun.
    Your distaste for the ideology is hampering your ability to have a reasonable discussion, where I tried to have two different nouns mean two different things.

    I've already acknowledged that progressives often accidentally conflate change with progress.
    My question implied I already thought that.
     
  11. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    By your standards the Khemer Rouge was progressive. By your standards the Iranian revolution was progressive. No one else would who uses the English language would use those words.


    You're making up definitions which demonize your opponents. Not definitions which, you know, define things!
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Minority A oppresses minority B, so minority B tries to get the majority to oppress minority A.

    I can't change how other people think. I can only act correctly myself. Here's a story to illustrate. I was at the bus station in Kansas City, on the way to my first active duty Air Force post. An Army private happened to also be there, on his way to his first post. I went over to talk with him, feeling a brotherhood with my fellow serviceman. Some locals started yelling at me that "we don't associate with their kind". See, I'm white and the Army guy was African American. He told me to back down so we didn't cause problems with these rednecks, but I turned to them and said, "fellas, we're both wearing green uniforms and I'll associate with who I want to".

    I don't need idiots on TV telling me that I need to treat minorities better. All the activists do is increase the conflict with the people who don't get it. Rub it in their faces more, and they dig in their heels. No, we need to teach the ones who can be reached to just act the right way. Eventually, the old guard, who will never learn or change their ways anyway, will die off and the meek will inherit. Compared to where it was when I was in grade school, we're most of the way there.
     
  13. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

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    The Soviet Union was/is considered progressive. Maoism was/is considered progressive. Prohibition was considered progressive. Shipping black people to Liberia instead of dealing with the aftermath of slavery was progressive. There is a judgment call about change being "good" that causes people to use the word progressive. If you're taking a great leap forward, even massive scale killings can and are called progressive in the English language.
     
  14. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    I would like to point out that while morals may be perceived by some as oppressive and by others as being protective they are neither. They are just the mirror showing us who we really are. Laws and governments are not the protectors of morals. They are the ideals of protecting us from ourselves.

    Oppression happens when the government takes over personal responsibility. Any oppression that the so called "gay activist" was fighting was not a moral one, but an oppressive governmental ruling that had nothing to do with the moral issue but it was the failure of the government becoming too involved in personal responsibility instead of protecting us from ourselves.

    That is why a secular government needs to be separate from a set of morals that are self imposed. We lost that separation 70 years ago in the US and as a nation we have been denying that fact ever since. It is not progress to force people to believe or set their own moral choices. Progress is people maintaining their own beliefs without fear of being oppressed for them, and no one has the right to tell the opposite side what is right or wrong with the backing of a government. I realize that telling some one they are wrong is offensive, but it is hardly oppressive, unless they make that person change their way of thinking.

    Refusing to serve a person because of a moral issue is probably rude and unkind, but in a free society it is hardly oppressive. Being of a different skin color is not a moral issue. That is a fallacy that the church should have never let happen when it had the chance to destroy it, but did not. I think the church and even the US would have been further ahead if moral issues had been handled differently. I should not be seen as oppressive, if I have the freedom to vote against something. I am also irresponsible if I vote for a ruling that does force someone to go against their own moral judgment. However a government should never have started down a road that would force me to do that in the first place.

    Change comes from within a person, and cannot be forced.
     
  15. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    You don't need it, sure.
    However, the people who don't get it are very prone to the ideas coming over the airwaves, and it starts sinking in on some level.
    Therefore, activism raises awareness, and after Oprah makes a movie about it, it starts to really enter the country's mindset.

    Activists can be annoying, but they can also get results.
     
  16. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

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    They can also make idiots skip vaccinations for their children and feed raw milk to their toddlers. It's kinda a mixed bag of good with the bad.
     
  17. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    Darwin...
     
  18. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Those movements had progressive elements. And progressiveness, being generally considered good, would of course be trumpeted as a defining characteristic.

    Now, ads love to proclaim that things are "new and improved". A lot of ads are lies, but does that say anything about the phrase itself rather than about the ads that use it? Can we not actually be capable of discerning what is true and what is not in each situation? It seems a lot moderates do not have that ability. They always talk about who has what opinion, not who is right - because everybody is right and we're only wrong when we say they are wrong.

    I, too, dislike libertarian activists who go on and on about how they dislike activists.

    Yeah, well, so it turns out anyone can be an activist about anything. Doesn't really have any bearing on whether activism is good or bad.
     
  19. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The long wait

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    Read closer then. Or more inclusively? Not sure that's quite right. Moderation is capable is discerning badness even in a relativistic world. It requires accepting that there may be more than the one true path, though, which can be jarring for the selfish and the dogmatic True Believers.

    Exactly.
     
  20. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    "Selfish" is a nice word. Critics are "selfish" because they refuse to see the good in the thing they are criticising. Activists are "selfish" because they don't realise how they are bothering people who are not interested in their activism. "Selfish." Any cause can be described "selfish" because it is mainly only interested in its own aims. "Lets call a crusade on causes!" Goes the moderate war cry.

    Not.

     

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