Modern Native American Civilizations (or, the Case for the Navajo)

[Ryansinbela]

They show up as an independent people in Modern

 

[moondog385]

They show up as an independent people in Modern

Ah okay. I see so few independent people in Modern given the scarcity of land, but I think I’ve seen Lakota and Tlingit. Tlingit would be awesome, but I’m not sure Modern is the best fit for them.

 

[Ryansinbela]

I would like to see them try Haida again in Exploration

 

[Ryansinbela]

If they do add a 4th age what native civs could be there

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ah okay. I see so few independent people in Modern given the scarcity of land, but I think I’ve seen Lakota and Tlingit. Tlingit would be awesome, but I’m not sure Modern is the best fit for them.

I could see the Tlingit probably fit Exploration better. Interestingly it was the Russians who discovered them first so I could weirdly see them progressing into Russia or America. Maybe that's why they were put as a Modern IP so they could interact with them.

 

[Jkchart]

Is there an argument for the Guarani in Modern given Guarani is one of the official languages of Paraguay? As far as indigenous American populations go, their culture is relatively intact.

Concerning the Navajo, yeah they’re a great fit for Modern and I hope they make it in.

The Guarani would be an interesting and exciting choice! More South America is always good.

 

[Jkchart]

If they do add a 4th age what native civs could be there

That I don’t know, and likely even fewer (if any). So I won’t speculate on that era too much, but perhaps bring a crusade to Age 3 NA representation

 

[RedCourtJester]

I am torn on the Navajo. They are simultaneously both a very exceptional representation of modern native territorial representation, and yet are historically almost as abrasive as the Comanche when it comes to cooperating with surrounding peoples. An absolutely terrible representation of any sort of "Pueblo" heritage, since they displaced the Hopi and Zuni from most of their lands.

Perhaps if we got a "Western America" path they could make sense when paired with other more imperialistic predecessors like the Apache/Comanche and some sort of antiquity civ I can't think of? But they definitely aren't in line with Tecumseh's vision of tribal confederacy that would fit, say, the Anishinaabe, or the Cherokee, or the Iroquois, or even the modern Lakota, like a glove.

Modern native civs I am envisioning include:

* Maori - soft-confirmed to be modern with data leak, Whina Cooper leader and modern IP. Fantastic endpoint for Polynesia civs.
* Anishinaabe - just such a logical third act for Tecumseh's Great Blue Wall of Friendship. Second lake civ? Yes please.
* Inuit - exploration Iceland-as-pseudo-empire begs for a modern endpoint. Inuit are already a modern IP. Some 90% of Greenland are Inuit, would make a fantastic counterpoint to the Maori.
* Guarani - as noted by @moondog385 above, yeah they are a great modern SA civ. Also a modern IP, also would be bridged very well to an antiquity Peruvian civ by the Mapuche, who are an exploration IP. Uruguay especially is proving to be a pretty great little haven of modernity, and both it and Paraguay maintain Guarani populations exceeding 1/3. I'm totally for it if we got Nepal.
* Hausa - I think it's inevitable for Amina to get her own civ at some point.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I am torn on the Navajo. They are simultaneously both a very exceptional representation of modern native territorial representation, and yet are historically almost as abrasive as the Comanche when it comes to cooperating with surrounding peoples. An absolutely terrible representation of any sort of "Pueblo" heritage, since they displaced the Hopi and Zuni from most of their lands.

Perhaps if we got a "Western America" path they could make sense when paired with other more imperialistic predecessors like the Apache/Comanche and some sort of antiquity civ I can't think of?

The only reasonable Southwest civ that you could possibly have in Antiquity would probably either be the (Ancestral) Pueblo or the Hohokam.

Honestly, I could also see Shoshone come back as an Exploration civ though (with a unique scout of some sort), which would have to progress to a Modern Comanche.

 

[RedCourtJester]

The only reasonable Southwest civ that you could possibly have in Antiquity would probably either be the (Ancestral) Pueblo or the Hohokam.

Honestly, I could also see Shoshone come back as an Exploration civ though (with a unique scout of some sort), which would have to progress to a Modern Comanche.

Do the Shoshone and the Comanche have enough going between them as far as infrastructure/wonders?

I am not expecting any Western civs to exhibit strong cultural or political relationships. After looking at the Nepal design, I think the devs are likely to just cobble together what they can for each era and we will be lucky if we even see more than one Southwest civ.

 

[Zaarin]

I would like to see them try Haida again in Exploration

Same. If the objection was depicting one of their ancestors (Haida have a taboo about naming the dead until the name has been passed on), that seems avoidable now.

 

[Ryansinbela]

I notice a lot of civs get ignored because of that (pueblo and several aboriginal people), now they seem more likely

 

[Xandinho]

* Guarani - as noted by @moondog385 above, yeah they are a great modern SA civ. Also a modern IP, also would be bridged very well to an antiquity Peruvian civ by the Mapuche, who are an exploration IP. Uruguay especially is proving to be a pretty great little haven of modernity, and both it and Paraguay maintain Guarani populations exceeding 1/3. I'm totally for it if we got Nepal.

Guarani is on the border between Exploration and Modern, so it could work for either (just like Poland and the Netherlands). Personally, I think the Guaraní should be in Exploration, as they historically interacted with Spain and Portugal, where their religious conversion mechanics could be relevant. I actually designed a Guarani civ around this concept in the thread about Latin American civs.

Finally, Guarani could transition into Paraguay in the Modern Age, where they would interact with the Brazilian Empire.

As for Modern Native civs in North America, I've always thought Cherokee and Sioux would be obvious choices—perhaps Navajo as well, right? It's not really my area of expertise, so I don't have much to add. Cree could work as a Modern Native Canadian civ, but I’m not sure if they would repeat that, after the small controversy of its inclusion in Civ6.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Do the Shoshone and the Comanche have enough going between them as far as infrastructure/wonders?

Well from what we've seen I wouldn't be surprised if turns out to be Shoshone Tipi and Comanche Tipi.
As for a wonder, or maybe unique infrastructure, I did find this as a possibility for the Comanche: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanah_Parker_Star_House

I would think that if one got in than the other would also need to as well, especially considering they are advocating the idea of civilizations built on layers, and the Comanche were an offshoot of the Shoshone. But it's also just possible that we only get Shoshone again and we get Comanche Raiders as the UU if we go off of what they did with Carthage.

 

[untitledjuan]

For South America, the Mapuche, the Guaraní, the Wayuu or the Aymara could work in the Modern Era. If I had to pick only one, I'd go for the Mapuche for the Modern Era. They were the ones that resisted the most the Western colonization and managed to somewhat protect their territory from Chile and Argentina almost to the beginning of the 20th century.

For North America, I'd vote for the Lakota or the Seminole, but the Comanche, Navajo, Shoshone or Cree would be great choices as well.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Well from what we've seen I wouldn't be surprised if turns out to be Shoshone Tipi and Comanche Tipi.
As for a wonder, or maybe unique infrastructure, I did find this as a possibility for the Comanche: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanah_Parker_Star_House

I would think that if one got in than the other would also need to as well, especially considering they are advocating the idea of civilizations built on layers, and the Comanche were an offshoot of the Shoshone. But it's also just possible that we only get Shoshone again and we get Comanche Raiders as the UU if we go off of what they did with Carthage.

I would volunteer as a means of tying the Navajo to the Puebloans, Betatakin as a wonder.

And I think, in fairness, the Apache or Comanche would be the best bridge civs between them. Probably the Apache since (a) they had a bit more infrastructure, and (b) they had very peaceful trade relationships with the Puebloans and are cousins of the Navajo).

Since I am proposing Betatakin for the modern Navajo wonder, I would be fine if the devs pivoted to the Tohono O'odham/Hohokam and Pueblo Grande an antiquity option, just to give a little more variety to the wonders.

So think my most ideal spread for that region would be Hohokam (Pueblo Grande, Irrigation Canal) -> Apache (Kinishba, Wickiup, Sweat Lodge) -> Navajo (Betatakin, Wigwam). I know that the Shoshone had a lot of territory and the Comanche were themselves almost a raider empire, but I don't really like that archetype and I think the far more impressive feature of the region was the actual Puebloan housebuilding and irrigation culture which defined settlements across the entire region.

 

[Zaarin]

Seminole

IMO all of the other "Five Civilized Tribes" are better candidates; the Seminole were basically Creek rebels. Choctaw would be my top choice, followed roughly equally by the Creek and Cherokee. Choctaw have a very natural candidate for a wonder in Emerald Mound, too, and maybe they can actually make this one look like, you know, a mound...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would volunteer as a means of tying the Navajo to the Puebloans, Betatakin as a wonder.

And I think, in fairness, the Apache or Comanche would be the best bridge civs between them. Probably the Apache since (a) they had a bit more infrastructure, and (b) they had very peaceful trade relationships with the Puebloans and are cousins of the Navajo).

Since I am proposing Betatakin for the modern Navajo wonder, I would be fine if the devs pivoted to the Tohono O'odham/Hohokam and Pueblo Grande an antiquity option, just to give a little more variety to the wonders.

So think my most ideal spread for that region would be Hohokam (Pueblo Grande, Irrigation Canal) -> Apache (Kinishba, Wickiup, Sweat Lodge) -> Navajo (Betatakin, Wigwam). I know that the Shoshone had a lot of territory and the Comanche were themselves almost a raider empire, but I don't really like that archetype and I think the far more impressive feature of the region was the actual Puebloan housebuilding and irrigation culture which defined settlements across the entire region.

Yeah, I honestly liked my idea on the other thread about having the Dene as an option as well, even if they don't inhabit the same general region. The Apache and Navajo are related to them and could be a different starting path for those that wouldn't want to start as the Hohokam/Pueblo.