Modern Poles descendants of ancient Amber Road peoples from present-day Poland

[Domen]

"Ancient DNA Reveals Matrilineal Continuity in Present-Day Poland over the Last Two Millennia", a new study:

Published on October 22, 2014:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0110839

This study attempts to establish which of modern ethnic groups (18 were examined) are descendants of inhabitants of Iron Age Poland and of Early Medieval (first Piast dynasty rulers) Poland. The study compares samples of fossil mtDNA from Late Iron Age Poland (200 BC - 500 AD) and Early Medieval Poland (950 AD - 1250 AD), with samples of mtDNA from modern populations. Sample sizes are 23 individuals from 4 burial sites of Ancient Poland and 20 individuals from 2 burial sites of Medieval Poland. These Ancient and Medieval samples were compared to a large modern sample of 3595 individuals from 18 ethnic groups (300 Poles, 305 Belarusians, 307 Russians, 300 Czechs & Slovaks, 300 Bosnians, Slovenians & Croatians, 300 Bulgarians, 293 Macedonians & Serbians, 300 Ukrainians, 296 Swedes, 300 Germans, 277 Lithuanians & Latvians, 317 Finns & Estonians).

Ancient burial sites are Kowalewko (K), Karczyn (KA), Gąski (G) and Rogowo (R) associated with Iron Age Przeworsk & Wielbark Cultures.
Medieval burial sites are Ostrów Lednicki (OL) and Cedynia (C), both associated with the reigns of Mieszko I and Bolesław I (960 - 1025).



Briefly, the results of the study can be described like this:

The highest % of shared informative mtDNA lineages with people of Iron Age Poland is among modern: Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Latvians.

The highest % of shared informative mtDNA lineages with people of Early Medieval Poland is among modern: Poles, Belarusians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians.

The lowest % of shared informative mtDNA lineages with people of Iron Age Poland is among modern: Macedonians, Serbs, Finns, Estonians, Germans.

Out of 18 examined modern ethnic groups, Poles appear to share the highest % of mtDNA with samples from both Ancient Poland and Medieval Poland. Modern Germans appear to share only little of informative mtDNA with Iron Age Poland (samples from 4 burial sites of Przeworsk and Wielbark Cultures). So Ancient amber traders along the Amber Road were not ancestors of Germans. The study confirms continuity of many lineages between those traders and modern Poles. But it seems that there was also immigration of new lineages (similar to Bulgarians & East Slavs) between 400 AD and 900 AD.

 

[Domen]

But I wonder why didn't they also compare this ancient mtDNA from Poland to modern Spanish / Iberian and Italian.

That would be interesting - after all, if some of those ancient guys were Goths, then there should be some traces in modern Spaniards and Italians.

But - for some reason - Spaniards / Iberians and Italians were not included among modern ethnic groups in this study.

 

[Agent327]

I'm curious, what are 'ancient Amber road peoples from present day Poland'?

 

[Domen]

That's THE question many historians and archaeologists have been asking for a long time.

Also for example were these areas mono-linguistic, mono-ethnic or was there a mish-mash of ethno-linguistic groups?

Does for example Celtic material culture (in southern Poland) mean that people there spoke Celtic?

Who were the mysterious Venedi / Venet(h)i tribes, or another federation of tribes called the Lugii (Lygii, Lugiones, Lougoi)?

Tacitus wrote:

"Venedi multum ex moribus traxerunt; nam quidquid inter Peucinos Fennosque silvarum ac montium erigitur latrociniis pererrant."

In English:

http://www.romansonline.com/Src_Frame.asp?Lat=L&DocID=Ger_Bk01_46

"From whence the Venedians have derived very many of their customs and a great resemblance. For they are continually traversing all the forests and mountains lying between the Peucinians and Fennians."

Pliny the Elder wrote:

"Quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris."

In English:

http://www.jassa.org/?p=221

"These regions, as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, the Venedi, the Sciri, and the Hirri."

And Ptolemy:

http://books.google.pl/books?id=6lo...&sa=X&ei=tfx2VNyFFZPgaPDLgPgK&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAw

Ptolemy mentions the Venedi as a great nation occupying the chief part of Sarmatia in his time.

==================================

Interpretation by prof. H. Łowmiański of location of some of the peoples along the Amber Road, based on Tacitus, "Germania":



Map from book (in Polish) "Dzieje Prusów" ("History of the Old Prussians") by prof. Łucja Okulicz-Kozaryn.

 

[gay_Aleks]

As many things that happened before people started writing things down, the prevalent theory is "we have no bloody damn idea, you guys".

 

[Agent327]

That's THE question many historians and archaeologists have been asking for a long time.

I doubt it. Ancient people generally do not come from present day countries. For one, in ancient times present day countries for the most part simply did not exist.

 

[Domen]

Present day Poland = territory where Poland is located. You did not get it?

 

[gay_Aleks]

And where is Poland, again?

 

[Domen]

And where is Poland, again?

In the so called Central Zone of Europe (Strefa Centralna Europy); aka the Intermarium (between the three seas, A, B, C):

http://en.paperblog.com/the-geopolitical-centrality-of-poland-525786/

http://geopolityka.org/index.php/analizy/1112-od-trojkata-kaliningradzkiego-do-zwiazku-europy

 

[gay_Aleks]

For the layman out there, let's just call it purgatory.

 

[Domen]

let's just call it purgatory.

Somewhere between the DEvil and the RUgnarök (or was it "a" there?).

 

[gay_Aleks]

More like between "being bought by German bankers" and "being annexed by Russian soldiers".

 

[Domen]

Oh, German banks were all bought by Jews long time ago (perhaps already before Napoleon).

Later they had some difficulties in maintaining banks (1933 - 1945), but now it should be OK once again.

Moderator Action: Infracted. This is not an acceptable comment.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

I'm curious, what are 'ancient Amber road peoples from present day Poland'?

In fairness to Domen, his sentence was 100% clear to me. I suppose you could word it as 'Modern Poles are descendants of ancient people who were buried in that portion of the the central area of the north European plain which is referred to in ancient sources as having an commodity-based econonomy driven by amber deposits and is within the post-1945 borders of the Republic of Poland'. But I think his sentence is perfectly clear for a thread headline as long as you've got some vague notion of the Amber road.

Back to the topic: the flood of ancient DNA evidence is fascinating for anyone with an interest in human origins, pre-history and just about any period before the the introduction of censuses and ID cards. I have long relied on Razib Khan's Gene Expression blog to keep me up to date with new papers because he digs down into some detail but not so far that I drown in the maths. Unfortunately, he's now moved to a website that has way too many people who think that you can play with racism and not get burned. Any recommendations of better sources for pop genetics news?

 

[Domen]

"being bought by German bankers"

In the Middle Ages - before banks emerged - Poles used to complain about the spread of German language, and the corruption of the Church.

Jan Ostroróg (1436-1501) in his "Monumentum pro Reipublicae Ordinatione Congestum" ("Treatise on Improving the Republic"), published in 1475, wrote:



In English:

"XXII. About Sermons in the German Language:

Oh what an ungracious and hideous thing for the Poles, that in many places in our churches sermons are given in German language, and this takes place in a lofty and magnificent setting, where only one or two old women listen to them, while at the same time the crowds of Poles are squeezed somewhere in the corner with their preacher. And because nature itself implanted eternal discord and hatred between these two languages (as well as in some other aspects), I exhort you not to say the mass in that language. Let the one who wants to live in Poland learn to speak Polish! Unless we are such simpletons that we forget that the Germans treat our language in a similar fashion in their country. And if, after all, such sermons are needed for the foreign immigrants, let them take place somewhere in secluded spots, without damage to the dignity of the Poles."



In English:

"XX. About Enrolling Monks to the Monasteries.

Lords ruling the Republic! How feeble-minded are you, that until this day you have tolerated the fact, that from monasteries - dowered with land and income by our ancestors, built on Polish soil and with its crops fed by the Poles - they are excluding our kinsmen and not allowing them to join the convents; and this only because they are bound by an act of law, which tells them to enroll only Germans to the convent. This act of law is ridiculous and contrary to church laws. Because who dares to impose such a yoke upon the sovereign Kingdom of Poland - the King of which does not recognize the lordship of anyone above him - under the false guise of an act of law? You, brave men - if you want to be considered brave - must stop allowing the Germans - and especially these boorish and effeminate monks - to make fun of the Polish nation, and to deceive it with their bogus piety."



In English:

"XVIII. About the Pride of Priests:

Many of you, or maybe all of you, even if less fit to pastoral work, are applying for the priestly dignity, because idleness tends to be pleasant and attractive, while inaction tends to be nice and engaging. Perhaps, if I am not mistaken, the thing which encourages them to do this, is what Saint Paul said: Who desires a bishopric, desires something good. However, they don't know, that desiring itself is evil. One who steals gold, steals something good, but stealing itself is evil. And every priest, if we believe church laws, is a bishop, generally speaking. Sirs! Have you read what I wrote above, as well as what Hieronymus wrote, many of you would have chosen another way of life, and really valued the afterlife more than the earthly life. Myself being a Pole, and seeing what is happening in Poland now, I could not be silent about this."

All in all Ostrorog's concerns about the spread of German language among Poles were justified - considering that several centuries later guys like Otto von Bismarck or Adolf Hitler were convinced that all areas with German-speaking inhabitants should be annexed by Germany.

 

[Domen]

Jan Ostroróg (1436-1501) in his "Monumentum pro Reipublicae Ordinatione Congestum" ("Treatise on Improving the Republic"), published in 1475

Here you can find the entire Treatise (bilingual edition, in Latin and in Polish):

http://mbc.cyfrowemazowsze.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=3481&from=FBC

 

[Domen]

So we have another great find:

Y-DNA from Late Bronze Age Lusatian Culture (as part of Urnfield horizon), from Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld in Saxony-Anhalt.

This is the first - so far - ancient Y-DNA from the Lusatian Culture (Biskupin in Poland is the most famous site of this culture).

He was named in this study as individual Halberstadt_LBA, I0099:

I0099/HAL36C (grave 40, feature 1114, 1113-1021 calBCE, MAMS 21484)
was buried in right-handed flexed position, head SSW, facing SE. Two decorated LBK pots
and two undecorated globular pots were found above the grave but it was not clear whether
they were part of the burial or the back filling. Thus, the skeleton was also originally thought
to be part of the LBK burial series found at the same site, but subsequent radiocarbon dating
performed for this study indicated a much younger date, placing this individual within the
Late Bronze Age Urnfield [in this case Lusatian Culture, which was part of Urnfield horizon] of the Mittelelbe-Saale region.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

ID number - I0099
Pop Label for Analysis - Halberstadt_LBA
Culture - Late Bronze Age
Group - LBA
Location and sample details (e.g. sample, grave and museum ID) - Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany; HAL36C, grave 40, feature 1114
Date (lab no.) - 1113-1021 cal BCE (MAMS 21484)
Country - Germany
Sex - M
mt-hg - H23
Y-hg - R1a1a1b1a2

What is so revolutionary about this find? That individual had Y-DNA hg R1a1a1b1a2 (see below). And he lived around years 1113 - 1021 BCE.

But more importantly - he was part of the Lusatian Culture, about which for the last 100 years scholars argued whether it was Balto-Slavic or Germanic. And now we have a typically Balto-Slavic DNA from this culture - and not even from its central part, but from western periphery!:



This haplogroup (R1a1a1b1a2) is today almost exclusively a Slavic-Baltic marker. Here more about it:



https://translate.google.com/#auto/..., восточно-альпийский, чехословацкий и другие

R1a1a1b1a2 (S204 / Z91, S466 / Z280) - an Eastern European marker (probably Balto-Slavic), is found throughout Central and Eastern Europe, the western limit of distribution stretches from East to South-western Germany and further to the north-eastern Italy, is spread in Russian, Ukrainians, Volga Tatars and others. Inside branches divided into several clusters studied so far only in general terms: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, Eastern Alps, Czechoslovakia and others.

And also here:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe, with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.

So what does this discovery mean ??? That ancestors of Slavs and Balts lived in East Germany around year 1000 BC. But did they speak Balto-Slavic language ??? Or East Germanic ??? Or yet another (now extinct?) Indo-European language, neither Balto-Slavic nor East Germanic?

His maternal haplogroup is no less interesting. It is H23 - here is what I found about it:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2566-mtDNA-H23

H23 (C10211T) is estimated to be about 3000 years old based on diversity of present day samples, however, there is an H23 sample from ancient remains from the early LBK farmer culture found at Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany dated to about 7000 years ago.
H23 has 30 samples including: 5 from Germany, 2 from Sweden, 2 from England, 2 from Ireland, 2 from Netherlands, 2 from Russia and 1 each from Poland, Scotland, and Czech. While H23 was present in Germany at least 7000 years ago, the most recent common ancestor of the people in the H Subclade Discovery project probably originated in an early Germanic [???] tribe in northern Europe around 3000 years ago.

While his R1a lineage is descended from pastoralist Corded Ware Culture, his mtDNA lineage (this H23) is descended from Linear Pottery Culture, who were Neolithic farmers. So when pastoralists came from the steppe, they took wifes from among local women of Neolithic farmers!

 

[Domen]

This find of Y-DNA which is today mostly Slavic-Baltic, in Bronze Age Lusatian Culture, is sensational either way - because:

1) If that Bronze Age R1a1a1b1a2 spoke Balto-Slavic language, then we have Slavic migration into Poland & East Germany debunked (Proto-Slavs were there already during the Bronze Age, in such case).

2) If that Bronze Age R1a1a1b1a2 spoke East Germanic, then we have depopulation of Poland & East Germany debunked (Slavs did not come to empty land, but assimilated East Germanic & Celtic tribes).

So - no matter which interpretation we accept, this is sensational (because until recently a scientific consensus was that Poland and East Germany became completely depopulated during the Migration Period, and then that empty land was populated again by immigrants).