Modern, Scandinavian Social Democracy.

[Adebisi]

Imagine that ten people went out to eat every day. The bill was 100 euro. If they paid the bill like we pay taxes, it would end up like this: The first four, the poorest, wouldn't pay anything at all. The fifth man would pay 1 euro, the sixth man 3 euro, the seventh man 7 euro, the eigth man 12 euro, the ninth man 18 euro and the the tenth man, the richest one, would pay 59 euro. They decided to pay the bill that way.

They ate at a restaurant every day and felt happy. But one day, the restaurant owner gave them a discount.
"Since you eat here every day, I'll give you a 20 euro discount", he said. "Your meal for ten people will only cost 80 euro".

The four who didn't pay weren't affected. But how would the rest divide the discount, and still keep their system? If everyone got to pay 3,33 euro less (20 euro divided by six) the fifth and the sixth man would get paid to eat.

However, the restaurant owner thought it would be a good idea to reduce everyones part of the bill in about the same way. They started calculating how much each man would pay now.

The result was that the fifth man could eat for free along with the four poorest. The sixth man had to pay 2 euro, the seventh man 5 euro, the eight man 9 euro and the ninth man 12 euro. The tenth man now only had to pay 52 euro instead of 59.

Everyone saved some money and the poorest continued to eat for free. But outside the restaurant they compared what they had saved.
"Hey I only saved 1 euro but he saved 70!", said the sixth man and pointed at the tenth man.
"Exactly! I only saved one euro too", said the fifth man. "This is unfair! He got seven times more than me! Why do the rich always get more?"
"Hey wait a second! We, the four poorest, didn't get anyhing at all! This system exploits the poor!"

Everyone got mad at the tenth man, surrounded him and beat him up.

The tenth man didn't show up for the next meal. But rest noticed something. Suddenly, they couldn't pay the bill because they were 52 euro short!

 

[newfangle]

I have heard that analogy many times. Do you see rich people getting the crap kicked out of them in modern socialist scandanavia.

 

[amadeus]

No, they get the crap taxed out of them.

 

[newfangle]

Good

 

[Adebisi]

Originally posted by newfangle
I have heard that analogy many times. Do you see rich people getting the crap kicked out of them in modern socialist scandanavia.

No, they just leave. Same thing.

 

[newfangle]

Let them.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by Adebisi
The tenth man didn't show up for the next meal.

Did he die or did he just suddenly stop to eat?

 

[amadeus]

I actually kind of like the idea of socialism.

It gives an incentive for the skilled to abandon their "punish the wealthy" countries and come here.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by Adebisi
No, they just leave. Same thing.

And they are more than welcome in the bastion of economic freedom

Maybe if enough of them leave, Scandanavia will actually begin to take immigrants?

 

[newfangle]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
I actually kind of like the idea of socialism.

It gives an incentive for the skilled to abandon their "punish the wealthy" countries and come here.

Most successful people are not wealthy. Its just how you measure success, through greed.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by newfangle
Most successful people are not wealthy. Its just how you measure success, through greed.

And most successful people aren't greedy

So if you don't believe wealth equates success, why are you so obsessive about taking other people's wealth?

 

[Adebisi]

"Let them"? So you admit that socialism doesn't work?

Graedius, Sweden accepts almost the most immigrants per capita in Europe, and Denmark has a significant immigrant minority too. Finland doesn't have any jobs to offer, and I honeslty dont know about Norway.

But Graedius, consider that there are different kinds of immigrants. Some come to live on welfare checks, some come to do honest work.

 

[Greadius]

Good point on the work ethic. I suppose that is why our immigrants are of such high quality

I was under the impression all of Scandinaivia was tough on immigration. I know for a fact that Norway is extremely tough on allowing immigration, much less citizenship.

 

[Adebisi]

That is only true for Norway and Finland. Like I said, Finland's reason is the high unemployment and I dont know Norways reason. Sweden on the other hand is very lenient on granting citizenship and accepting asylum seekers. Denmark used to accept many immigrants, but due to social problems a "xenophobic" party now sits in the cabinet and the immigration policy is more strict.

 

[Pongui]

Adebisi. Are you sure that some people immigrate to Scandinavia to get welfare money? I ask this because in my country alot of people believe this same thing about our immigrants, and the truth is it's quite impossible - no more than a xenophobic myth. My wife, for example, who is an immigrant, cannot get welfare money in the first ten years of her residency. Immigrants must sign restrictive contracts with their new governments.

Failing that argument, some would complain of immigrants stealing jobs.

 

[Adebisi]

Abuse of the welfare system is a very real argument, unlike complaining about stolen jobs. I dont remember exactly how high the unemployment among non-European citizens in Sweden was, but I think it was around 40%.

I know it's different in Canada.

My wife, for example, who is an immigrant, cannot get welfare money in the first ten years of her residency.

LOL, such a law would be impossible to pass in Scandinavia.

 

[Pongui]

Immigrants to Sweden are forced to get a job. Prior to entering the country, immigration applicants must obtain residence and work permits. Just trying to get a work permit from within Sweden is grounds for immediate expulsion. I don't know about the follow-up. Aren't there any conditions placed on newcomers?

That wouldn't include family members of Swedish citizens (generally), or refugees who are accepted by yearly quota.

EDIT: A "work permit" in this case refers to a formal job offer from a Swedish employer (they must attempt to hire a Swede first, I believe), and a government OK to take that job.

 

[animepornstar]

the immigrants don't come to sweden to live get welfare money. most of them are escaping wars. many of them are also high educated (if you are in stockholm ask a taxidriver about his education), but doesn't get any job because the employers are doing racistic prejudices. sweden is in great lack of engineers and the fact that we have many living here without being allowed to get jobs was a great part of the election debate recently. things will happen.

immigrants do in fact not get more welfare money.

btw, ikea has moved back to sweden.

 

[animepornstar]

Originally posted by Sean Lindstrom
Immigrants to Sweden are forced to get a job. Prior to entering the country, immigration applicants must obtain residence and work permits. Just trying to get a work permit from within Sweden is grounds for immediate expulsion. I don't know about the follow-up. Aren't there any conditions placed on newcomers?

That wouldn't include family members of Swedish citizens (generally), or refugees who are accepted by yearly quota.

EDIT: A "work permit" in this case refers to a formal job offer from a Swedish employer (they must attempt to hire a Swede first, I believe), and a government OK to take that job.

what are you talking about. they must get a get a job but if they do that they will be kicked out?

 

[Pongui]

There's a difference between being a visitor and being an immigrant. To immigrate, you must be outside (not visiting) the country, and then officially enter. So to apply for immigration while inside Sweden is against the rules. In the case of Canada, many visitors leave Canada for a Canadian embassy in America so they can apply to "land" in Canada. It comes from the old days when travel was not so easy.