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Modern War Era Strategies?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by WhiteRabbit, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. Raliuven

    Raliuven Chieftain

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    I could see some specific uses for harbors in corrupt cities, but in general, there is no need to build a harbor to reach 5-6 citizen, especially if you are irrigating and railing everything. If you want to build something, why not build workers, settlers or artillary?

    The issue I have is that most cities in the time of rails will naturally hover around 5-6 citizens with irrigation and rails. You can support 3-4 taxmen per city. You put it on wealth and you receive an extra 1gpt.

    You build a harbor. That is -1gpt. If that allows the city to grow past 5-6 citizens without the need to build and aqueduct, then it might be worth it. If you are supporting an aqueduct to enable the growth, that is another -1gpt.

    I see it as ROI. If you need some combination of improvements to support the larger population of taxmen, then you need to make sure you will recoup the cost. You also need to compare. The harbor costs 40-80 shields. Average is 60 shields. So for the same price, I can make two settlers. Those two settlers can run off and make two new cities, each set to wealth and supporting 3-4 taxmen each. So, for the same investment, I can create +8-10gpt. It would be pretty hard for a harbor to compete with that. Better yet, set those cities to +6-8gpt and build four more settlers.

    Now if you have already packed all of your land with as many settlers as it can hold and you are still looking for a way to pick up a few extra gpt, then I suppose, what the heck do you have to lose?

    Harbors in C3C might be a different argument, though. I don't play C3C so I cannot comment.
     
  2. vorlon_mi

    vorlon_mi Just One More Turn

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    Cross-posting with Raliuven ...

    Yes, those two actions are complementary. The question is rather, "should I build the harbor?" If I were to do a real analysis, like Raliuven did, I would probably not build the harbor. I would need the harbor to grow the population large enough to hire two or more taxmen (maybe a fish resource?) to pay for the upkeep on the harbor.

    One of the factors complicating the ROI analysis is rush-building, or my personal favorite, incremental rush-building. By using a combination of gold and the 1 shield per turn from the corrupt coastal town, I can get the harbor up in 4-7 turns.

    Was it worthwhile? Assume the town grows to size 6, and I can hire one specialist
    Positives: Harbor means access to luxuries, which means happy citizens and I can keep the lux slider low (not zero, but low) More places for boats to heal, or be upgraded. More citizens leads to a higher score.
    Negatives: 1 gpt from taxman is eaten up by 1 gpt for the harbor; if the town is hopelessly corrupt, only a trickle of income due to setting it to produce wealth
     
  3. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter Chieftain

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    I am almost certain it's Net, not total Shields. So for Specialist Farms, Wealth would still only be +1 gpt, but if you (for some reason) had a highly productive city working on Wealth it could give you a significant income.

    Wait, what? When have Harbors ever let cities grow past 6?
     
  4. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

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    Yes, a city with 100 spt for example would produce 50 gpt with economics or 25 without.
     
  5. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    When you are on a river but you don't have enough food to support more citizens.
     
  6. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter Chieftain

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    Oh, so nothing to do with the Harbor itself.
     
  7. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

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    No, they just make extra food.
     
  8. Raliuven

    Raliuven Chieftain

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    Yeah, I was just referring to a city that had auto access to fresh water and could build a harbor to pick up extra food from the coast. Or, I suppose, a city with a captured aqua, though you are stuck paying for that already you might as well make it useful if you can (or at least make it pay for itself).
     
  9. WhiteRabbit

    WhiteRabbit Chieftain

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    I was specifically talking about those coastal cities far to the north/south that are almost always tundra. You can't irrigate tundra so even railing won't help. These are the cases where I suggested a harbor is necessary, otherwise the town stays at pop 2 with no income contribution for my empire.

    Secondly, what about pre-railroad era? Over half the game is played pre-railroad era.
     
  10. Raliuven

    Raliuven Chieftain

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    Well, I wouldn't be trying to grow that tundra town period. It woud stay as is, either producing a worker, settler or wealth (or arty if you prefer, whatever). Unless there were good sea resources nearby, I wouldn't spend the time building a harbor that might pay back a few gpt later. A worker or settler would probably net you more in the long run if you do a cost-benefit. If all you have left is tundra to populate, then you are probably doing it for a reason other than farming (boarder control, resource grab/denial, maglomania, troop support, etc.)

    You can still farm pre-rails, though it is not as effective. My workers are usually too busy in more core to worrry about farmland pre-rails, so it remains as is unless I can spare a worker or two to make nice irrigated squares out of bonus food tiles. I don't ignore my farms pre-rail, but I don't do as much micromanaging until then.

    But pre-rails I still would not look towards a harbor to make a farm worthwhile (generally speaking). Average harbor=60 shields. That 6 workers or 2 settlers. The harbor may net you +1-2gpt unless it is fish heavy. If it is, then no need for a harbor anyway. 6 workers irrigating tiles or 2 settlers located south of the Northpole = much more +gpt.

    Bottomline, aside from barracks and the occassional walls, I don't build anything in farm country (city improvement-wise).
     
  11. shl7070

    shl7070 Chieftain

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    What about resource connections.
    It will be enough to have one harbor per island/continent for that but still one is required.

    If the reason for going to the pole and conquer a little tundra island was to get the oil NOW then you need a harbor NOW.

    And if the cost of harbors/markets bother you then go to the wonder screen, find who have adam smith and...:ar15:
     

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