Modern Warfare

Smellincoffee

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What is the future of warfare? In the last twenty years, the frontlines have become a technosphere of gadgetry, including robots; drones were put into regular use for assassinations and surveillance, and war escaped binary status by allowing nations to engage in cybercraft against rival nations, even their "friends". What will the 21st century produce further still? Will we see robotic tanks patrolling on automatic, vulnerable to being hacked by plucky rebels and turned against their masters? Will infantrymen disappear?


Additionally: I'm interested in learning more about modern warfare -- drones, infantry gear, networked tanks/ships/helos -- but Amazon is of little help. It keeps producing strategy textbooks, texts on highly specific topics like drones, or histories that cover everything since Napoleon. Any recommendations?
 
Imo, gadgetry is all either luxury, or useless, except for cheap drones (quadcopters) which yet to influence combat drastically, and as for now they are not exploited enough being simply an add-on to traditional combat.
 
Will infantrymen disappear?

Eventually, yes. At least that is the plan for the US military. Of course the military isn't expecting to completely replace human soldiers for a few decades, and in the mean time will spend their time and money augmenting soldiers with more force multipliers until those force multipliers eventually replace soldiers altogether.

Imo, gadgetry is all either luxury, or useless, except for cheap drones (quadcopters) which yet to influence combat drastically, and as for now they are not exploited enough being simply an add-on to traditional combat.

Have you actually participated in a modern battle? I have, and I can say with complete certainty that this statement is not accurate. The technology we are adding to our military has drastically changed the way we fight, especially when it comes to asymmetrical warfare. The most easily recognizable difference is the number of soldiers required to carry out an operation or hold a given position. The addition of drones and other "gadgets" has greatly reduced the actual number of soldiers we need to deploy. I remember our commanding officer talking about this once and he said basically what we needed a company-level element to do 20 years ago can now be easily accomplished by a platoon-level element. We are entering an age of warfare where numbers are truly becoming irrelevant. We live in an era now where the biggest army isn't necessarily the strongest, it's the army that has the better force multipliers and the better trained soldiers who can use those force multipliers effectively.
 
I feel the same way about technology and warfare as I did thirty years ago when people were talking about the internet revolutionizing the construction industry; LOOK! You can plug in different materials and all the loads are calculated out and you can adjust the plans like this and...

My response then was "call me when a computer swings a hammer."

I suspect that no one will ever be really comfortable with letting machines make actual life and death decisions, so killing will always be the prerogative of men...who will most likely send boys.
 
A computer can't, but a robot sure can.

Sure. That's why thirty years later I'm still getting paid this week for helping a friend on a roofing job...because it's so much easier to get a robot than to pry me out of retirement for a few days.
 
Have you actually participated in a modern battle? I have, and I can say with complete certainty that this statement is not accurate. The technology we are adding to our military has drastically changed the way we fight, especially when it comes to asymmetrical warfare. The most easily recognizable difference is the number of soldiers required to carry out an operation or hold a given position. The addition of drones and other "gadgets" has greatly reduced the actual number of soldiers we need to deploy. I remember our commanding officer talking about this once and he said basically what we needed a company-level element to do 20 years ago can now be easily accomplished by a platoon-level element. We are entering an age of warfare where numbers are truly becoming irrelevant. We live in an era now where the biggest army isn't necessarily the strongest, it's the army that has the better force multipliers and the better trained soldiers who can use those force multipliers effectively.
By that logic you could take a policeman or a SWAT operative as an example of a modern soldier.

I have not participated in a modern battle. But you have not participated in a battle against more or less equal force. Foes Westerners meet in battle are always many times weaker. With them you have this economic and strategic advantage to use all those gadgetry. But then you have many other non-Westerners fighting each other in various parts of the world, more or less equal or at least neither side has as much advantage, and so they can't and don't use so much high tech. Why is that they are not modern, if their wars are happening today?

If numbers no longer matter. Why then NATO and USA still have the biggest army? Why then you can invade Libya or Yugoslavia, but can't do the same to North Korea?

The better trained soldiers are those which can fight in the given terrain with less tools and so less money invested in them.
 
I agree with Commodore almost 100%. The most valuable soldiers are those who are trained and who can utilise anything given to them to the utmost extent. Be it terrain, tools, weapons etc. In this aspect nothing has changed at all.

Soldiers have to be smarter and more tech savvy - being accurate with Ak-47 and driving armored vehicles isn't good enough anymore, you need to be good with a lot of things.
 
Sure. That's why thirty years later I'm still getting paid this week for helping a friend on a roofing job...because it's so much easier to get a robot than to pry me out of retirement for a few days.

So because the technology hasn't yet reached a point where it's commonplace that means it never will be? That logic is...interesting. There are some robots in the works right now that have some pretty impressive capabilities.

But you have not participated in a battle against more or less equal force. Foes Westerners meet in battle are always many times weaker. With them you have this economic and strategic advantage to use all those gadgetry.

Our technology is effective against conventional armies as well. If it weren't, then we wouldn't still be considered to have the most powerful military force on the planet. In fact, the effectiveness of our military against a conventional opponent was proven in the First Gulf War. At the time Saddam's army was considered the third largest in the world and was supplied with what was supposed to be some pretty good Soviet hardware. And what happened to that army? We completely blew them off the battlefield. And that was 26-27 years ago now, and our military has only gotten more sophisticated since then.

By that logic you could take a policeman or a SWAT operative as an example of a modern soldier.

Yeah, you could actually. That's another indicator as to how much the nature of warfare has changed. With counter-insurgency and anti-terrorism capabilities becoming greater concerns, we are reaching a point where police forces could be considered just as much frontline combatants as actual soldiers are. As a Russian, you should be very familiar with police having to be used in an almost military-like role.

Why then NATO and USA still have the biggest army?

We don't. A quick look at Wikipedia would tell you that. The "honor" of largest army goes to North Korea with South Korea being number two. And no, South Korea is not a member of NATO. Just because they are a US ally doesn't mean you can lump them in with NATO.

Hell, in terms of total (both active and reserve) military personnel, Vietnam has a larger army than the US. Also, if you look at the number of military personnel we have as a proportion of our total population, then our army isn't even in the top 20 in terms of size. For comparison: North Korea has 308.5 soldiers per 1000 population while the US has 7.3 soldiers per 1000 population and your own Russia has 23.4 soldiers per 1000 population.

Why then you can invade Libya or Yugoslavia, but can't do the same to North Korea?

Because we aren't interested in starting WWIII. Not to mention, invading North Korea isn't one of our strategic goals right now as it provides no benefit to the US or our allies. North Korea is the ultimate tryhard. They put so much effort into making themselves look sooooo scary and powerful, but at the end of the day everyone knows they won't follow through with any of the threats they make and their military is a joke.

In short, just because aren't invading a nation does not mean we are not capable of doing so.
 
At the time Saddam's army was considered the third largest in the world
You probably mean thirtieth?
No way it could be bigger than US, Soviet, Chinese or Indian armies.
Unlikely that it was bigger than DPRK, Pakistani or South Korean either.

and was supplied with what was supposed to be some pretty good Soviet hardware.
The equipment was quite old by that time. Monkey models of Soviet T-72 and SAMs made in 60-s.
 
You probably mean thirtieth?

Nah, it was fifth largest, so I wasn't too far off:

2. In 1991, Iraq had the fifth largest army in the world.

It’s true, Iraq’s armed forces boasted more than a million men in uniform in 1991, but only a third of those were skilled professional fighting forces. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait with 120,000 of these and 2,000 tanks. After the Gulf War started, he concluded Iraq’s peace with Iran and raised his occupying force levels to 300,000. Iraq conscripted three fourths of men between ages 15 and 49. Even so, Iraq’s Air Force was large but weak and its Navy was “virtually nonexistent.”

Source: http://undertheradar.military.com/2015/09/21-facts-about-the-first-gulf-war/
 
Yeah, as I remember Iraq had the fifth or fourth largest army at the time and had more modern equipment than China. The result really freaked the Chinese out and was a major wake up call for them.
 
Anyway, it failed to defeat Iran in 80-s, so despite numbers it was hardly a formidable opponent by that time.
In my opinion while technology definitely matters a lot in modern warfare, the modern hi-tech armies are more vulnerable against asymmetrical measures.
In case of USA, while it can disorganize regular forces, it had much harder time dealing with opponents using guerilla tactics - Vietnam, Afghanistan, now ISIS.
 
That has always been true where stringent ROE are to be followed. Even so, the difficulties of facing down asymmetrical foes has been one of half-hearted political commitment not the weakness of high-tech armies as the surge in conjunction with expanded tech surveillance and tracking was proven to be highly effective.
 
Even so, the difficulties of facing down asymmetrical foes has been one of half-hearted political commitment not the weakness of high-tech armies as the surge in conjunction with expanded tech surveillance and tracking was proven to be highly effective.
The difficulties are in fact that you can't defeat insurgency only by dropping bombs and pushing buttons - you have to occupy the territory for a long time with large army. Which will suffer casualties, mistakenly kill civilians, create huge expenses and in the end may fail anyway.
 
There are well established COIN strategies for dealing with that developed over the centuries and recent decades. The cost of these drops dramatically the more liberal your rules of engagement become. The US suffered only 5000 dead for 8 years of occupation. If you are an essential player on the world market you do not really fear sanctions. Look at Syria now, barrel bombs and cluster munitions upon dense urban areas. Cheap and effective.
 
Interesting thread, thank you for starting it.

Eventually, yes. At least that is the plan for the US military.

Have they given any idea of the sort of direction they want to take that? After all, military technology has been improving since somebody first decided to tie a stone onto a stick, but we've consistently failed to find anything that replaces the infantry soldier and what he can carry. The well-worn phrase is that only infantry can hold ground - riflemen can get into small spaces (such as river-beds and buildings), move through difficult terrain, use cover and concealment and move around fast on a tactical scale. This is why the introduction of cavalry, artillery, armour and air power all failed to take away the need for something basically the same size and agility as an infanteer with more-or-less light equipment. Infantry soldiers are also able to operate completely autonomously, make creative decisions about unpredictable situations and deal with human beings - think of the sort of reassurance patrols usually conducted with berets and slung rifles. By the time you've made a machine that can do all of that, I think you've basically rebuilt a human being, and probably one complicated enough that you can no longer say that they are more disposable than a person. There's certainly room for technology to cut down the infantry's workload: I can imagine recce patrols disappearing as drones and satellites get better, for example. But it's not just that we don't have the technology at the moment to replicate the infantry soldier: I can't at this stage imagine what such a replacement would look like, with the best technology in the world.

There are then other thorny issues:

I suspect that no one will ever be really comfortable with letting machines make actual life and death decisions, so killing will always be the prerogative of men...who will most likely send boys.

Ethics become very different when you're dealing in algorithms. At present, there's a degree of human error. Every now and again, a civilian laying pipes will be mistaken for an insurgent with an RPG and shot. It's a very different thing when that's a 19-year-old making a reasonable but wrong judgement call, versus when that's a pre-programmed system that will act the same in all situations. Accepting a degree of collateral damage is one matter, but having machines wage war would require coding in a quantifiable amount of it, and situations in which it would occur. The same problem occurs with self-driving cars. You have to program the machine to be able to decide between swerving into traffic and swerving into pedestrians, and that means you need moral answers that nobody really has.

If anything, military training shows up the basic problems in using a machine that can't learn as well as a human being. Tactical training is really an exercise in programming: if you think of the Sandhurst/Brecon/West Point style platoon battle drill, teaching that is a matter of getting people to automatically go through a pre-written process of thought and action. This is at once the best way to teach it and, as we all recognise, totally inadequate: we recognise that officers and NCOs will always be a bit unfinished until they have combat experience to give them the sort of instincts that can't be made to fit such an algorithm. To replicate that, you'd need to have a machine whose brain worked quite a lot like a human one, and would end up with a unique set of thought processes - in other words, a personality. Once you've made a machine like that, I'm not convinced you can say that it's still a machine.

Have you actually participated in a modern battle? I have, and I can say with complete certainty that this statement is not accurate. The technology we are adding to our military has drastically changed the way we fight, especially when it comes to asymmetrical warfare. The most easily recognizable difference is the number of soldiers required to carry out an operation or hold a given position. The addition of drones and other "gadgets" has greatly reduced the actual number of soldiers we need to deploy. I remember our commanding officer talking about this once and he said basically what we needed a company-level element to do 20 years ago can now be easily accomplished by a platoon-level element. We are entering an age of warfare where numbers are truly becoming irrelevant. We live in an era now where the biggest army isn't necessarily the strongest, it's the army that has the better force multipliers and the better trained soldiers who can use those force multipliers effectively.

That's been the American doctrine, more or less, since about 1944. Recently, though, we're starting to see a bit of a push-back against it. The Royal Navy, for example, spent the past few decades building better and better ships, and boasting that a new frigate can do the job of six of its predecessors, which is entirely true - except the new frigate can only be in one place at once. You can think of similar examples with land forces - if you want to control access into a village with three entrances, you need three groups of (at least two) people. You then need a degree of redundancy: if Smith falls over and breaks his leg, that's manageable if his whole platoon are holding the village, but much worse if there are only six of them.

I agree that the trend is going that way, but I don't agree that everything is moving towards zero, or that we've simply crossed out 'company' in 'company-level task' and replaced it with 'platoon'.

Nah, it was fifth largest, so I wasn't too far off:

I can't remember who, but as one American general put it, the 2003 invasion turned the Iraqi army from the fifth-largest in the world to the second-largest in Iraq.
 
If anything, military training shows up the basic problems in using a machine that can't learn as well as a human being. Tactical training is really an exercise in programming: if you think of the Sandhurst/Brecon/West Point style platoon battle drill, teaching that is a matter of getting people to automatically go through a pre-written process of thought and action. This is at once the best way to teach it and, as we all recognise, totally inadequate: we recognise that officers and NCOs will always be a bit unfinished until they have combat experience to give them the sort of instincts that can't be made to fit such an algorithm. To replicate that, you'd need to have a machine whose brain worked quite a lot like a human one, and would end up with a unique set of thought processes - in other words, a personality. Once you've made a machine like that, I'm not convinced you can say that it's still a machine.

There are some interesting developments now with synthetic brain tissue that can be made to 'learn' and deal with the problematics of 3D vision and fuzzy scenarios and then paired with the stored data and speed of silicone driven electronics. I'm not sure what you would call these things, but I'm fairly certain they won't be afraid to use them.
 
Well, I'm not sure Syria is a good example of successful counter-insurgence strategy.

With external support the regime can employ as brutal and vicious tactics as they like, loathsome and heinous they may be to modern sensibilities. The only reason insurgents got so far like my family in Yugoslav wars was illegally procured munitions and equipment, paired with external negation of governmental hardware by outside powers.
 
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