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[MODULE] JotnarL - Reworking of the Jotnar Giant Civ

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Lplate, Mar 12, 2014.

  1. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    Ireland
    Hi,

    This might not be the Jotnar module your looking for.

    This module is based on Arctic Circle's original Jotnar module. Vehem worked on the Jotnar for Fall Further and the RifE team also did further work on the Jotnar. This version includes a District mechanic based on [URL="http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=510779]Erikulum's idea[/URL].

    I haven't played Arctic Circle's original Jotnar modmod or any of its reincarnations (Fall Further/ RifE). This is essentially a reimagining of the giant civ. Some features will be familiar to those who tried a previous Jotnar, some will be novel.

    The main aspects I wanted to include were;
    Spoiler :

    Living at a larger scale
    Spoiler :
    Giant cities cover more of the landscape using District improvements. Districts are upgraded by building in the associated city

    Limited population growth
    Spoiler :
    City population growth is slowed by the necessity of Districts to place Citizens in

    Limited powerful, small army or a weaker, bigger army
    Spoiler :
    The number of non-Citizen Giant/Troll units is limited by the number of Citizens, after that they are all Runts. The more Runts you have, the less likely you are to get Giants/Trolls.

    (Tweakable) Random race
    Spoiler :
    Race is assigned on unit production. This can be influenced by combat type, mana, civics, buildings and traits.

    Giving the player more options (even if costly), e.g. Gov civics, religious units
    Spoiler :
    e.g.Not following Traditions leads to a chance for some Citizens to leave. Non Giant/Troll religious units increase the chance that other trained units will be Runts.


    ---
    Module Features
    Spoiler :

    A revised Jotnar civ
    • Units are built rather than randomly being born.
    • Cities get a free defensive, immobile Citizen unit when founded.
    • Cities will not grow above a certain size if there are no Districts to accommodate the population. Once the limit is reached, a District will be placed (if there isn't one available) and population growth will not occur or a citizen will be placed in the District (if available) and population growth will occur.
    • Districts will never produce food and so limit the maximum population that Jotnar cities can achieve.
    • District improvements should be viewed as extensions of the city. They are upgraded by building/spending production in the city.
    • Districts limit the number of Citizens and Citizens place a limit on the number of naturally occurring giants/trolls.
    • Race is assigned when a unit is built. If there are enough Citizens, it may be a Giant/Troll. The chance is influenced by combat type, civics, law mana, chaos mana. Adopting the Eugenics civic allows you to deliberately select a race on unit creation.
    • Giants use the aging promotion mechanic, getting more powerful the longer they survive. They can move though coastal waters and over mountains. They can carry their smaller companions. They can demolish city defences.
    • Trolls are more animalistic and get cleverer, rather than much stronger. Young trolls are vulnerable to recon units. The eldest trolls can merge with the landscape.
    • Runts are basically big humans. Their small numbers means that a runt unit is weaker than the equivalent unit in another civ.
    • Runts can ride horses. Trolls don't ride and Frost Giants ride Mammoths.
    • The Jotnar have ranged units, which can be effectively walking siege units(if the race is right).
    • The only true siege unit the Jotnar have is an immobile city/district defensive unit.
    • The Jotnar use sea creatures. They only have one ship, a transport (cargo 3) to get them across oceans. Giants can get them across shallower waters.
    • Their religious units can spread whatever the state religion is. Munne/Stemme (priests/high priests) are held for a couple of turns when the state religion changes.
    • Units can not be promoted into the tier 4 melee units. Fire Giants (berserkers) can only be built in cities near volcanos. Frost Mammoths (Frost Giants mounted on mammoths) can only be built near tundra/glaciers. A ritual reveals where the Vanir are slumbering. A giant unit must then go to the tile to wake them.
    • They have two mutually exclusive world spells; one to change some Runts into Giants/Trolls and one to convert some Citizens into Militia (which can be upgraded along any line).

    ---

    Jotnar Pros and Cons
    Spoiler :

    Pros
    1) Free citizen defenders.
    2) No need to build workers.
    3) (Giants) Can attack from mountain and coastal tiles.
    4) (Giant and Troll) Units are more powerful than equivalent units for other civs.
    5) Flexible religious units
    6) Tier 4 melee start with Giantkin promo. Vanir start with Legendary and Mythic promos.
    7) Choice of two mutually exclusive world spells

    Cons
    1) City growth is slowed by Citizen/District mechanic.
    2) Districts reduce amount of food producing tiles available to a city, thus slowing growth and limiting maximum population.
    3) Number of powerful units (Giants/Trolls) is limited by citizen population.
    4) Chances of powerful unit reduces once you've any non-Giant/Troll units.
    5) Chances of weaker Runt units increases as AC rises.
    6) Units are more expensive than equivalents.
    7) Can't upgrade highly promoted units to tier 4 melee units, with the exception of the Jotun (phalanx equivalent)


    Artistic Credits
    Spoiler :

    Most art is from the existing Jotnar module/RifE/FFH.
    The following were added (or will be);
    Bakuel's early african swordsman, http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4640
    charle88's late medieval arquebusier, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php//help/forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308721
    Deon's Temple in Volcano, http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10960
    Hrochland's hotel iglu, http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10577
    orcaxeman by White Rabbit and C.Roland, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161905
    C.Roland's, Medieval Infantry(Hammer), http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3525 used for militia militia
    bernie14, germanic units, http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4185; germacebast used for Jarl

    Bakuel's Russian Orthodox Priest, http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=16388 for Stemme

    Some artwork is also taken from the Master of Mana mod (leader art, Fire giant button). I plan to use more of it.
    Van Honthorst's Match-Maker is used for the match maker button.

    benwooten's Kraken Attack is used for the capsizer button picture. His art can be seen on deviantart.com.

    Stemme Lika portrait is Ogre Sitting by vshen. His art can be viewed at vshen.deviantart.com/gallery/ and at artofgeorge.blogspot.com.au.


    Compatibility
    Spoiler :

    Jotnar Modules
    The module is not compatible with other Jotnar modules.

    The Module works with RifE 1.41 and Snarko's patch.

    python Modules
    The module uses a number of python files which may clash with other modules which use simlarly named python files, such as the Panivo module. Modules which are purely xml or only use spell and/or event python should be compatible.

    AoE
    RifE uses TERRAIN_GLACIAL and TERRAIN_TUNDRA, which have been changed to TERRAIN_GLACIER and TERRAIN_TAIGA in AoE. This effects the UnitInfos, ImprovementInfos and some python.
    Patch added for AoE. Just substitute in the python and xml files in the patch into the main module.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reserved for Changelog, Bug Reports and Potential updates

    Changelog
    Spoiler :

    Version 0.8 of JotnarL is the first version that I published.
    0.9 Changes
    Spoiler :

    Art
    Some unit and building graphics added.

    xml
    • PromotionInfos, ImprovementInfos & UnitInfos; Commented out snow and glacial terrains for time being.
    • PromotionInfos & UnitInfos; amending move rates for Trolls, runts, giants and all of the Jotnar specific units. DOMAIN_IMMOBILE used to keep units still who shouldn't move.
    • ImprovementInfos; Increased District cultural range to 1 (haven't got District culture working as I want yet)
    • CIV4ArtDefines_Unit, CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos, UnitInfos - amended to add more troll and runt artstyle units
    • ImprovementInfos & ArtDefines changed to use Citadel graphic for Walled District
    • UnitInfos: Jeger's builds added. "Cheating" AI worker added.

    python
    • spellJotnarL; defined reqAttachMinionJot to return False.
    • onBuildingBuilt, onCityAcquired; added TERRAIN_SNOW
    • onUnitBuilt, onBeginPlayerTurn; got rid of new archer lines
    • onUnitBuilt & onCityGrowth; Slaves, animals and beasts excluded from the race limit calcs. AI allowed 3 extra free trolls/giants. getGlobalCounter changed to CyGame().getGlobalCounter().
    • onUnitBuilt; Amended so Runt Riders and Horse Archers are always runts. Amended so the matchmaker increases the chance of Trolls for Recon units and Giants for other combat types.
    • onCityBuilt; deleted duplicated definitions
    • onCityGrowth; amended to remove Jungles and Forests when a District is placed.
    • onBuildingBuilt: added code to spawn three barbarian Fyrd when Jormund's Call is built.
    • onProjectBuilt: Added for Search for Slumberers
    • onCityBuilt: Jotnar AI gets an invisible, never hostile worker when they build a city. Hopefully this should enable them to build whatever improvements they need without getting confused by the military units being able to build improvements.

    0.10 Changes
    Spoiler :

    xml
    • UnitInfos: Fishing boat builds added to units. District builds changed.
    • BuildingInfos: Extend Siege now only requires 1 siege workshop
    • PromotionInfos: button changes. Fixed for aging promos, where bForceOverwrite didn't seem to kick in. Removed MinLevel -1 from Clever Troll. Hidden loyalty now blocks Feral instead of Enraged.
    • BuildInfos: Added missing tag info for Sea Districts and Peak Districts. Added Fish Farms so giants don't die when building fishing improvement.
    • BuildingInfos and CivilizationInfos: removed unique monument
    • CivilizationInfos and BuildingInfos: Made Granary, Salthouse and Smokehouse 50% more expensive for Jotnar (they should not be growing faster than other civs). Gave them the standard monument.
    • TraitInfos: added Supremacist trait
    • LeaderHeadInfos and ArtDefines_Leaderhead: Added Kasghenal and Uxol

    python
    • onUnitBuilt, onCityGrowth: omitted AI's worker from the race calcs. Increased chance for a Troll based on surrounding terrain/features. Added effects for a Troll Supremacist leader.
    • onCityGrowth: amended so same assignRace code is used as in onUnitBuilt. Matchmaker defined. Added code so Districts will not be placed on unique improvements.
    • onUnitCreated: Amended to allow for Troll and Giant great people
    • onBuildingBuilt: Error in Jormunds Call code fixed to give Jotnar a free Fyrd

    Art
    • Downloaded Master of Mana and copied a leader art and button for the Fire Giant.


    0.11 Changes
    Spoiler :

    • Districts now have culture in their own right.
    • Art - several unit graphics and buttons changed. Gothi, Munne & Stemme: Art amended based on Bannor Cleric and Bakuel's Russian Orthodox Priest. Warrior art based on MoM Vala. Troll unit art based on orcs of moria, Lurtz and orcaxeman, as well as some of the unit graphics from MoM. C.Roland's medieval infantry (hammer) used for militia. Slumberer based on Immortal (needs colour corrected).
    • Fire Giants amended: Fire affinity removed. Fire damage added. Base attack reduced by one. Vulnerable to Cold and immunity to fire added.
    • FiskFlokk: Added Giantkin promo and fixed so they have the FiskFlokk promo.
    • Frost Mammoths amended: free promos added, cold damage added, ice affinity removed. Base attack reduced by 1.
    • Fyrd: Removed Bronze working and Barracks pre-requisites.
    • Gothi: Whispering Stone made pre-requisite.
    • Jarl and Skald: hid old versions in pedia (python will overwrite them if they spawn)
    • Jotun added.
    • Munne: Class added for the Munne to avoid being able to found the Empyrean temple. Unholy damage added. Traditions made a prerequisite so other civs can't build the new class type. Whispering Stone made prerequisite.
    • Stemme: Changed fire damage to unholy damage - they speak for all Gods, including those in hell. Corrected so won't abandon civ when religion changes
    • Default Horse Archer is now used. Knight added as potential unit for Jotnar.
    • ArtDefines_Civilization added.
    • Whispering Stones (using stonehenge graphic) added.
    • City Artstyle changed to Doviello from Viking and modular ArtDefines referenced.
    • Great Hall switched to use graphic from MoM for palace. Palace mana changed.
    • Promotions: Vulnerable to Cold added. Order of tags in Trollkin promo changed to try and sort graphics issues
    • Guild of Midwives (building and trait) added as wonder to reduce cost of units for Jotnar.
    • onUnitCreated amended so any old Skald spawned gets replaced with new Skald.
    • onimprovementBuilt added and onCityGrowth amended so that Districts have cultural control of territory in their own right
    • First attempts at Wading graphics added.


    0.12 Changes
    Spoiler :

    • Text file was updated. Fyrd (Hill Giants) renamed as Bergrisar in the text files. Bergrisar were mountain giants in norse legend. Fyrd were groups of Anglo Saxons that fought against the Danes. Triton references changed to Aegir (Norse sea giant).
    • Problem with the building Fish Farms has been resolved. Issue was that the units with the build option were DOMAIN_LAND. Sea Serpents, Kisk Flokk and one of the AI's secret workers can now build the fish farms.
    • Jotnar religious units can now cast the appropriate spells based on the state religion. Religious summons will leave if religion is changed. REligious Doubts spell added for Stemme.
    • FiskFlokk made DOMAIN_SEA. This enables the sea creatures to become their minions. They can still walk on land (through it with current graphic).
    • Promos added for Fiskflokk and minions. Jotnar sea creatures can now blockade. Naval promos allowed to FiskFlokk minions.
    • Invisible sea worker added for the AI to develop sea plots.
    • District providing cultural ownership of own tile added. Claim District spell added.
    • Egrass unused promos removed. Cost and workrate tweaked. Upgrades removed as with the Worker AI he wouldn't upgrade usefully for the AI. Once Were Warriors now also converts Egrass into a combat hero. The built Egrass the Founder unit is really just a fast worker. Titan graphic used for Egrass the Warrior has been modified so the face and hair match Egrass the founder.
    • Civics amended: Traditions is -40% for distance from capital and -10% for number of cities. Melting Pot and Eugenics also tweaked.
    • UNITAI_SETTLER_SEA added for Kriger, Bergrisar and Jarl so that the AI can get settlers off islands surrounded by shallow seas. Worker AI commented out for all units except the AI workers. Kriger carrying of cargo reenabled.
    • onCityGrowth python amended to properly deal with sea districts and ocean terrain.
    • Added Shadernif (same as Nif) where not included but it did not resolve the unit graphics issues.
    • World spells corrected so that they are actually world spells. Calculations amended in world spells. Once were Warriors spell; number of Citizens converted into Militia will be based on the initial excess of Citizens over Troll/Giant units. Blood Will Show; chance of converting runts based on proportion of runts in population.


    0.13 Changes
    Spoiler :

    • python tidied. CTD issues seem to be resolved.
    • Text updated. Civilization and Concept entries should give a good indication of how to use the Jotnar.
    • Number of free trolls/giants based on difficulty reduced. Number of troll/giants allowed based on Citizens reduced by 1/3.
    • Bergrisars now require Bronze Working again, as well as Cartography to preven them overrunning other civilizations too soon.
    • Building of peak Districts fixed.
    • Leader civics likes and hates modified. Mother Enningas made a Pacifist rather than an Aristocrat. Uxol flavours adjusted so his focus isn't lots of units (which he kills)
    • Giant walls now look bigger than standard Walls.
    • Chance of a Runt is now reduced for Supremacists by about 5 percent.
    • Droit de Seigneur only given to Citizens in cities as it was totally crippling.
    • Egrass changed to UNITCOMBAT_WORKER. City boosting promotions added for Egrass. OnceWereWarriors amended so Egrass gets levels for worker promos.
    • Automatic District placement code updated to take sea tiles and hell terrain into consideration. Tweak for bonus increased. Sea District placing code fixed.
    • The AI persists in building improvements over Districts. The code will now create a new District, with a Citizen, where there is a Citizen on a tile where an improvement is built. The original Citizen is killed. Citizens who are not in a District type improvement are removed.
    • Citizens created in Sea Districts will always be Giants and will not be created if the player has the Diluted Blood trait.
    • AI taught to drown/kill some Runts.
    • Accelerated is denied to Jotnar siege units.
    • Kriger can now upgrade directly to Jarl. Upgrade xml corrected - all upgrade paths are now working properly.
    • Home promotion overwrites Feral. Home promotion limited to Jotnar.
    • Cost of all "race" units increased by 10 percent.
    • Bronze working is required for automatic placement of Districts on forests, etc.
    • Flavours added.


    0.14 Changes
    Spoiler :

    xml
    • Events: Lots added.
    • Units: Egrass weakened. Sea creatures made more expensive. Workrate added for Sea Serpents. Pseudo units added to prevent the building of disciple units (I don't know why NONE was being ignored for these). Batteries ranged strength and cost increased.
    • Leaders: Stemme Lika added as a Tolerant, Egalitarian leader. Mother Enningas made Org/Fin (as Casin Loveless already uses Fin/Phi combo). Mother Enningas is aristocratic again. Probability of building units reduced for all Jotnar leaders.
    • Civilization: Name changed to JotnarL (There's some python buried in the core python files that references Jotnar, so I had to dodge it). All of the text files still refer to the Jotnar. Various comments deleted from CivilizationInfos. The City of Thousand Slums was moved to the top of the Buildings as for some reason the system was not detecting that it was blocked to the Jotnar. Granary duplication removed.
    • Traits: Pure Blood lines trait given a -10 to great people emergence to reflect low birth rate.
    • Civics: Reduction in great people emergence removed from Eugenics civic.
    • Buildings: Switched to using BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_WONDER1, etc. instead of some unique building classes.


    Art
    Any unit art that was not working, e.g. troll warriors, has been removed. The art files and the references in the xml are gone. Wading artstyle has been removed completely. FiskFlokk walk on top of the water again. ArtDefines_Civilization updated and buttons moved into the module folders. House of Ancestors uses Cave of Ancestors graphic. Forum uses Garden of Splendor graphic and its own button. VanHotHorst's art used as basis for Matchmaker button.

    python
    • onImprovementBuilt changed so new Citizen and District are not created when District is upgraded to Walled District. Amended code to avoid calculation in first turn (cut and pasted from CvEventManager).
    • Claim District changed so it can't be cast if you own the plot, can only be cast once a turn and removes all other culture before establishing the new owner's culture. Culture control increased so that they can hold their own against cities.
    • Cityacquired code changed so that Citizen population taken into account when non tolerant Jotnar conquer cities.
    • Adopting Melting Pot will also remove the Supremacist trait now. Melting Pot will allow new units to have the race promotions applicable to cities that have been conquered. The more cities of a particular race that the Jotnar have conquered, the more likely that the unit will be one of those instead of a Runt.
    • City size limits based on citizens applied when Jotnar acquire cities and on city growth.
    • TERRAIN_VOLCANO corrected to FEATURE_VOLCANO in python.
    • isCivic() changed where it was used in python.
    • onCityGrowth amended to avoid multiple citizens being created on a tile.
    • references in spell python for siege workshop/combattype/unit made distinct
    • onUnitBuilt District Battery code corrected.
    • Typo in onBeginPlayerTurn fixed so Plans in cities are removed if there isn't an associated Citizen with Plans promo.
    • References in python for extending wall corrected.

    0.15 Changes
    Spoiler :
    • onCityGrowth edited to get Sea District assignment working again
    • Text link for sea serpent and tortoise changed as they didn't display properly in AoE but did in RifE. (Again, I don't know why.)
    • Removed Adult from the UnitClassInfos
    • Added text for Claim District
    • onUnitCreated changed so free gothi get race assignment.
    • OnCityGrowth - edited so District is not built if there are already enough citizens to support the city population.
    • miscellaneous python - UNIT_CHAMPION_JARL corrected to UNIT_CHAMPION_JOT
    • Blood Will Show now correctly converts mounted Runt units to appropriate non mounted units
    • Made Citizens bFreeUnit, so they don't cripple the economy as they age. bNoSupport was the incorrect tag
    • Defined the unit combat types that get the free loyalty from the Troll Supremacist trait.
    • Disabled AI JotnarL for time being as was getting a crash.
    • Volcano event which destroys improvements amended to also kill any Citizen on the tile, if it was a District. Also blocked the destruction of unique improvements and ashfields.
    • onUnitBuilt and onCityGrowth - fixed triggering of Eugenics race selection event


    0.16 Changes
    Spoiler :

    xml
    • The Clan of Embers have been blocked from hiring Cyclops, Trolls and Giants. They can now hire goblin scouts and lizardman rangers instead. They also need to be in an appropriate improvement to hire barbarian units.
    • Cyklop updated so they don't get the aging promotions.
    • Wild versions of JotnarL units added with Giantkin promotion for barbarian spawning from Staedding improvements.
    • Staedding improvements amended to reflect fewer numbers of giants in Erebus and use the new barbarian giant units.

    Troll Art has been updated. Tier 1 troll Utemmet and Kriger use same art. Tier 2 Troll Jeger and Bergrisar use same unit art. Tier 3 Troll Ranger and Jarl use same unit art. Tier 4 Beastmaster uses the Troll ranger art with the animals. Enlarged Frostling archer used for the Troll Hurler.

    python
    • onImprovementBuilt - code ignored if noone owns the tile
    • nUnitCreated - iProphet defined
    • onCityGrowth - iNewCitizens corrected to iCitizenPop. Included calculation of the citizen population in the surrounding Districts when there was no Citizen in the city
    • eventJotnarL - bMan defined where missing. Corrected isUnique line in applyJotVolcano.
    • spellJotnarL - Plans spell python tidied up. reqJotSpread added. Hiring spells for Clan added.
    • onCityBuilt - pPlayer.pPlayer corrected to pPlayer. Switched to checking number of cities instead of if the city is the capital for automatic assignment of Giant promotion for Citizen.
    • onBeginPlayerTurn - pUnit corrected to pTargetUnit and pLoopUnit
    • onUnitKilled - defined iOwner
    • onUnitCreated - corrected some of the disciple references. Code for disciple units amended to avoid referencing non existent newunit
    • onUnitCreated, onCityGrowth, onUnitBuilt - amended to define iSettler and giving of troll/giant to AI if its only one of kind for a given unit. Defined pPlot for the aristocratic calcs in actionAssignRace


    0.17 Changes
    Spoiler :
    Art
    • Doviello Crossbowman from FFH used as unit art for runt and giant crossbowman.
    • Adapted the troll archer to change the skin colour and get rid of the frostling spikes.
    • Custom District and Walled District graphics created based on the Doviello city buildings. District improvement/build buttons changed.
    • Troll arcane unit art based on Clan of Embers arcane unit art (only size is different)
    • Giant Wall graphic changed so its still tall but does not extend over so much of the landscape

    python
    • iSlums defined in onCityAcquired
    • iiArchos corrected to iArchos in onUnitBuilt
    • onUnitBuilt amended so that a non-Jotnar Tolerant leader in a Jotnar city has a chance of getting Trolls or Giants based on their Chaos mana (cumulative 2 percent chance for a giant and cumulative 2 per cent chance for a troll per Chaos mana).
    • onImprovementBuilt, eventJotnarL "next" not defined, corrected to "continue
    • EventInfos and eventJotnarL amended so that a Supremacist AI will not select Giant option if they have Eugenics. Burnt District Event added.
    • onCityAcquired - iCitizen was not defined - fixed
    • onCityGrowth - iSettler was not defined - fixed

    xml
    • Redundant promotions for AI workers and Citizens removed as their free status is granted by bFreeUnit.
    • Reenabled the AI for the JotnarL civ. Note: This may result in occasional ctd in first turn.
    • Pseudo disciples upgrade to Munne


    0.18 Changes
    Spoiler :

    python
    • onCityBuilt - copied over the assign race code from onUnitBuilt
    • onImprovementBuilt - blocked code when the plot in question is a city (this seems to have resolved the first turn AI ctd). pTargetPlot typo corrected.

    xml
    • PromotionInfos - removed commenting out of glacial and snow terrains added AoE version into patch


    Changes for Version 0.19
    Spoiler :

    xml
    • Some text added/typos corrected.
    • Reduced iBuildUnitProb for the AI JotnarL leaders
    • House of ancestors amended so GP bonus is in the city it is built in and not a global effect
    • Base cost of all Giant/Troll/Runt units increased by 25% but Diluted Blood trait gives 35% reduction in cost for these units.
    • Deleted Blacksmith trait
    • Claim District split into multiple spells so it can use the ImprovementPrereq flag
    • Deleted erroneous unit
    • Pseudo Gothi disciple units xml amended so that they are as functional as other Gothi

    python
    • onTechAcquired added so JotnarL don't get free Disciple units unless they found the particular religion but the associated religion is spread to at least one of their cities when religious tech is researched.
    • onUnitCreated amended so race assignment is applied to the various Gothi
    • onImprovementBuilt, Citizen is killed if there isn't a nearby city (and improvement is not a District/city). iMidwivesT defined in onBuildingBuilt.
    • iOwner ref removed
    • OnBuildingBuilt - amended selection of target area for placing of savage three stooges so they are placed on the continent with the most foreign cities
    • reqJotSpread amended to make sure only Gothi, Munne and Stemme can cast Spread Religion
    • iIllusion defined in onCityAcquired
    • TargetArea corrected to pTargetArea in onBuildingBuilt.
    • Amended onUnitCreated to only assign race for free units, great people, etc and others if plot is a city and to use the Eugenics selection option for these free great people.


    0.20 Changes
    Spoiler :

    xml
    • workrates added to disciple units
    • Edited Eugenics race selection event so units can keep previously assigned race when upgraded.
    • Added some missing event texts. Added some missing pedia entries, put in a couple more strategy entries and weeded out various typos in the text.
    • Flavour xml file retitled and moved into Flavours folder.
    • UnitInfos amended to deny hidden nationality to the Jarl so that units upgraded from Bergrisar necessarily declare their nationality.

    python
    • free militia removed from applyJotnarTroll
    • Edited Eugenics race selection event so units can keep previously assigned race when upgraded (and stop sneaky people exploiting Eugenics to get Trolls and Giants when the first result when the unit is born is Runt).
    • eventJotnarL, onUnitCreated, onCityGrowth, onUnitBuilt, spellJotnarL, onImprovementBuilt, onCityBuilt amended to avoid duplication of equipment when units are altered/upgraded by python.
    • Defined the AI for the AI's free workers.
    • onUnitCreated, onCityGrowth, onUnitBuilt edited condition to avoid zero division error when AI has too many runts
    • onUnitCreated amended to give barbarian Bergrisar the Loyalty promo so that it does not give away which Bergrisar are Hidden Nationality and which are truly barbarian
    • onCityAcquired, added missing code for giving frost clan
    • onUnitBuilt and onUnitCreated, amended to avoid giant and troll Hawks and other animals
    • spellJotnarL, add "not" in reqJotSpread so that only the Jotnar religious units can spread the word as opposed to everyone else.
    • onImprovementBuilt - fixed killing of citizen when build over a district
    • onUnitCreated, onCityGrowth, onUnitBuilt; JotnarL AI no longer leave convenient forts for others


    Version 1.0 Changes
    Spoiler :

    xml
    • Extra move removed from Wizened troll and animal invisibility given to wizened trolls.
    • Removed the redundant bUnitClassUpgrade, making the module compatible with Snarko's update.
    • Added bUnique tag for Munne in UnitClassInfos. Deleted "Not Used" Munne.



    Version 1.1 Changelog (changes due to Lark's feedback)
    Spoiler :
    • Text: Reworded the Civilization entry wrt Construction. I've added a bit onto the Religion part of the Civilization entry to clarify the killing runts recommendation. Broken District Battery link in Siege Battery pedia entry fixed. Pedia entry added for the Midwives trait. Eugenics Pedia entry amended.
    • Events: Created JotnarL specific version of the pig giant event. Also fixed the wild hill giant unit, as it was referencing both old and new versions of giantkin.
    • UnitInfos: Cyklops attack and defence lowered by one. They get boosted by the giantkin promo so they are still better than the original cyclops.
    • Citizens attack value removed and city defence bonus removed. This reduces the power value for these units so there is more of a chance of AI attacks when you've a load of citizens, whilst maintaining their defender purpose.
    • PromotionInfos: Added weakness against Recon into the Trollkin promo.
    • UnitArtDefines: Deleted an obsolete crossbow reference
    • Spell python: Amended so the Gothi received in stead of disciples of any religion will be able to cast Spread the Word
    • PromotionInfos added to AoE patch.



    Bug Reports
    Spoiler :

    Lark reported some issues. Some have been resolved in 0.9. The following are still outstanding:
    • AI Jotnar civilizations can have a ctd sometimes in the first few turns. This can also occur if autoplaying from the start. Seems to be fairly stable after this. I've decided to accept this bug as is. The ctd seems to happen less than 1 game in 15 for me. It does not reliably recur on reloading, which makes editing and bughunting it problematic. This ctd does not occur when playing as the JotnarL, only when the AI plays as JotnarL at the start of the game. Once past the first turn, the module works without any ctd.
    • The graphics linked to promotions does not seem to always work reliably for every unit every time.
    • Jotnar build roads under water. Without advice on this one, I have just accepted it.


    Potential Updates that have been considered and incorporated or abandoned
    The following are ideas which have not been included in the first issued version, which I'm considering adding later. Some are probably beyond my abilities.Most items on this list have been included at this stage or I've decided not to pursue them.
    Spoiler :

    • Python to place slumbering Vanir is to be added. - Added in 0.9
    • I think I forgot to specify that runt riders and horse archers would be Runts in the relevant python. Added in 0.9
    • Wall graphics: Use graphics for Great Wall for Jotnar walled cities and Districts, if possible.Version 0.13, larger wall graphic added.
    • Troll graphics: Add more suitable graphics for the troll version of races. At moment, just have a few in (and one is just a smaller version of another). Any source suggestions for unit graphics would be welcome. - Version 0.16 has suitable unit graphics for most of the trolls (although there is some repetition).
    • Wading graphics: Add a wading artstyles for giants in the water. Probably means having to move the models down relative to the axis in nifscope. - Disabled this in version 0.14. May reintroduce when I've working unit art. - Abandoning this idea. I'll be happy with just the distinctive trolls, giants and runts.
    • Unit graphics: Change the graphics of some giant units - version 0.11
    • Buttons: Add more new specific buttons - Pretty much complete in version 0.14
    • Giant Cargo: Capacity of the Stoneship to be increased to 9 but Giant Cargo and Overloaded promos to be added which reduce a ships cargo space when it carries Giants/Trolls and reduce its movement if its cargo exceeds its capacity (as adjusted by the giant cargo promos).Not adding as there isn't a python prerequisite hook in the PromotionInfos and its not worth checking every unit every turn with python for this.
    • Guild of Midwives: Unique building which gives Midwived Trait to reduce cost of units - added in version 0.11
    • Wave rider promo: Increases Fisk Flokk movement to match that of fastest sea creature commanded (that's on same tile). - not doing. It's too messy for something that the AI will never understand, will be fiddly and need micromanaging for human players to use.
    • Odio: amend hero in line with Giantkin promos Not doing as Odio isn't hero in RifE
    • Allow Tolerant civs to capture an injured version of citizen if it's the only unit on the tile when defeatedNot doing. Tolerant leaders with Jotnar cities have a chance based on their Chaos mana of getting giant/troll units when they train a unit in the city.
    • Fix it so sea creatures can Join the FiskFlokk commander. Added in version 0.12
    • Add spell to move a Citizen from a District to an empty city. Decided not to do this. A citizen will be placed in an empty city as soon as the population grows and I wouldn't have allowed the spell to be cast if there were enemy units at the gate so it's redundant.
    • Place the three stooges as barbarian units on a random tile when Jormund's Call is built. Added in version 0.9.
    • Add Events linked to race proportions - Added several events in version 0.14
    • Ordeal building to convert runts to Giants/Trolls or give them Weak promotions/kill them?? - Not needed, there's enough other stuff in the mod already
     
  3. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    2,757
    Location:
    France
    great news..
    dunno if I'll play them, but still very great news. thanks for your work Lplate

    I love the change you wrote.
    save maybe the runt effect... I'm not sure about that one.. but it seems worth it to try.
    in particular : units are more costly, but you get chances that they are worth less than normal units.
    what about limiting the "chance aspect".. and have "only" a counter that rises with citizen and falls with AC/number of runts... and that counter is was limit, in a deterministic way, the number of giant/trolls you can build ?
     
  4. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    Ireland
    @Calavente, thanks for the feedback.
    A player who is not planning to use Runts should minimise their chances of getting them. A player with the Eugenics civic has complete control over the race of units they'll build and leaves nothing to chance.
    I haven't put the race assignment calculations in the Pedia yet as I expect they may evolve over the next few versions.

    To minimise chance of building Runts:
    Spoiler :

    • Avoid building units when the citizen population and difficulty level means that it will automatically be a runt.
    • Kill any free non Giant/Troll units received through exploration/events before building of any new units is completed, as the proportion of living non-giant/troll non-citizens will increase the chances of future Runts.
    • Avoid building units of defined races, e.g. Satyrs, unless it's a requirement of your strategy, e.g. religious heroes.
    • Use religious options, e.g. Drowning, to convert living Runts into non living units, as only living units are considered when calculating the chances of getting a runt.
    • Its not in there yet but I may exclude slaves when determining the chance of a Runt, on the basis that the ruling class aren't breeding with the slaves (or at least, if they are, the children will just be slaves as well).
    • Trade away your Chaos mana as soon as you can. With no existing Runts, one chaos mana and the Pure Blood Lines trait, there's a 4% chance that a new unit will be a runt. This will increase for each chaos mana you have. (Ultimately, lots of chaos mana will drive it towards a 1/3 chance for each of the races.)
    • Consider adopting the Eugenics civic. Provided the difficulty level and citizen population will allow additional non-runt units then this will allow you to selectively avoid any more Runts no matter what the current Runt unit proportion is.
    • Be wary of high AC. If you've any Runts, then the chance of more Runts increases in relation to the proportion of Runts raised to the power of the inverse of one tenth of the AC. If the AC is high, the Jotnar player should opt for the Eugenics or Melting Pot civics.


    On the other hand, for a runt focus
    Spoiler :

    • Get the Divination tech, which will allow you to adopt the Melting Pot civic. Once this civic is adopted, the Pure Blood Lines trait will be replaced with Diluted Blood trait.
    • The Diluted Blood trait means that you can really only build runt units (Fire Giants, Frost Mammoths, FiskFlokk will not be available). Slumbering Vanir can still be roused if you have a giant unit to do it. The advantage of Diluted Blood is that it will reduce the costs of all the units.
    • Once you have Diluted Blood, you may want to maximise Chaos mana as there's a 2% cumulative chance per chaos mana of getting a giant when you have Diluted Blood. There's a similar chance of getting a troll.
    • The midwives building/trait when properly implemented will provide another way to reduce unit costs.
     
  5. Lark

    Lark Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    131
    If someone knows or can make an educated guess: How difficult would it be to adapt this for the Ashes of Erebus branch of RiFE?
     
  6. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    Ireland
    The "looking for AoE compatible modules" thread suggested that RifE 1.4 modules should be compatible with AoE. In that case, any of my modules would work with AoE. Just try them and see what happens.
    If there are compatibility issues I can look at adapting the JotnarL for AoE, once it's been polished with RifE.
     
  7. Lark

    Lark Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    131
    It sort of works; there are just a lot of errors:

    On first starting from the Quicksave:
    Spoiler :
    Tag: TERRAIN_GLACIAL in Info class was incorrect
    Current XML file is:
    modules\NormalModules\JotnarL\Units\JotnarL_CIV4PromotionInfos.xml

    Index is -1 inside function <<same file>>

    Then as above except with SNOW

    Repeat above once more, then twice in converse order (SNOW, -1, GLACIAL, -1)

    Then twice more in ImprovementInfos

    Then only GLACIAL and only once for UnitInfos
    <<I think the problem is that Ashes uses Taiga, Tundra & Glacier instead>>

    Once at turn 2 and randomly - usually in threes - thereafter:
    Spoiler :
    Traceback (most recent call last)

    File "CvSpellInterface", line 177" in canCast

    File "String", line 0, in ?

    NameError: name 'reqAttachMinionJot' is not defined

    I got Supplies from a lair, but as a Runt it was move 0, which meant it couldn't build anything.

    If the starting Scout (Utemmet) has to have a chance to defect, perhaps you could make them switch to the Animals faction rather than Savages? Otherwise there is a chance on the slower speeds that you'll lose your starting city before you can build a second defender.

    I get this one on city built and on Warrior (Kriger) built:
    Spoiler :
    File "CvEventInterface, line 30, in onEvent

    File "CvCustomEventManager", line 138, in onhandleEvent

    File "CvCustomEventManager", line 149, in in_handleDefaultEvent

    File "CvEventManager", line 4131, in onCityBuilt

    File "inCityBuilt.py", line 368, in onCityBuilt

    File "inCityBuilt.py", line 228, in actionAssignRace

    NameError: global name 'getGlobalCounter' is not defined

    I just had an idiot Volcano wipe out its own Ash Field (and the WorldBuilder doesn't let you add an Ash Field - it's item 0 on a list where the WB display starts at 1). This one is on the Ashes people, not you; apparently they think Obsidian comes from ash falls hundreds of kilometers from a volcano and not from silicon lava solidifying into glass at the volcano. At least you can use the WB to replace an Yggdrasil when a #$&~@^! Volcano kills it.

    I have a Wolf, a Lion, a Supplies, a Great Prophet, two Scouts - but only five Citizens/total City Pop, so apparently I can't build a non-Runt Warrior. Arrgh.
    <edit> I used up the Supplies & GP and tried to build a Giant Kriger but got a Runt Kriger and a Runt Archer (move 0). I can't even build Archers yet. Is it using Capitol population instead of total population?

    I got a little ahead of the other Civs by getting the immigrant event, and the second city is coming up on size 2 for the first time. I'm going to have to use Avoid Growth because it has hardly any land and I have nothing to make Sea Districts for a long while yet. Any advice on when it makes sense to switch out of God King (a +50% capitol with size 1 villages) for Traditions (5x maintenance and half?-sized cities)?


    This site made me sign in to reply (as usual) but then I had to sign in a second time to preview this, so I'll stop here before it chokes on me. I hope it posts.
     
  8. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    Ireland
    Thanks @Lark,

    I'm making some changes based on your results. I've already made these changes on my WIP version.

    Snow and Glacial - PromotionInfos, ImprovementInfos & UnitInfos; Commented out snow and glacial terrains for time being.

    spellJotnarL; defined reqAttachMinionJot to return False.

    Stuck Runt Supplies - fixed. PromotionInfos & UnitInfos; amending move rates for Trolls, runts, giants and all of the Jotnar specific units. DOMAIN_IMMOBILE used to keep units still who shouldn't move.

    onCityBuilt & onUnitBuilt; getGlobalCounter changed to game.getGlobalCounter()

    ----

    TERRAIN_GLACIAL and TERRAIN_TUNDRA are correct in RifE, so I'll have to check with AoE why they changed it as renaming types in the xml is guaranteed to lead to incompatibilities with modules.:confused: For the time being, they're commented out of the xml.

    The Supplies, Great Prophet and scouts should have affected assignment of race. The animals shouldn't but I'll need to fix that in the python. Remember that there's a small 4% chance that you'll get a Runt anyway while you have your Chaos mana from the palace, even when your citizen population would allow more giants/trolls. Apart from the citizens, you get some free slots for giants/trolls based on difficulty. This will drop to zero at the highest levels but at the lower levels, there should be a bit of a buffer before you only get Runts.

    Regarding the Civics, when you don't have Traditions, there is a chance that a citizen will leave one of your cities. With God King, the citizen will not leave your capital. With Theocracy, they will not leave cities with a resident Munne or Stemme. These departures will obviously slow city growth. I wouldn't have a specific recommendation on when to switch civics at this stage.
    The Traditions civic is as it was in the previous module. I haven't really examined it to see if it fits with the vision of Jotnar civilization in this module. I'm open to any suggestions that anyone has regarding what the Traditions civic should do.

    ---

    (For some reason, my RifE won't launch when I try to enable python popups and logging, so my debugging relies on a much slower manual method.:mad:)

    ---

    Incidentally, if anyone has the artwork for the Jotnar leaders other than Mother Enningas, could you send me copies so that I can include them into the module?

    LPlate
     
  9. Lark

    Lark Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    131
    Great! I'll look forward to the next version.

    I think you've fixed all but the first thing below (Hunters can't build), but I'll list them just in case:

    Upgraded one Utemmet to a Jeger - and discovered Jegers can't build anything. And it has a beautiful mutation, so I don't want to take it out of my territory to hunt animals and have it turn feral. Aargh!

    Spoiler :
    Traceback (most recent call last)
    File "CvEventInterface", line 30, in onEvent
    File "CvCustomEventManager", line 138, in handleEvent
    File "CvCustomEventManager", line 149, in _handleDefaultEvent
    File "CvEventManager", line 4416, in onCityGrowth
    File "onCityGrowth.py", line 542, in onCityGrowth
    File "onCityGrowth.py", line 256, in actionAssignRaceSuburb
    nameError: global name 'GetGlobalCounter' is not defined

    Also just noticed Citizens don't count as military - my capitol is demanding protection. Since for some reason I can't build Giants anymore, I'm stuck with one Giant Scout, one Giant Hunter and then however many Runts I want to build for garrisons and defense - and workers too. I have Raging Barbarians on; if I was playing at Emperor, I'd give up now.

    I switched to Traditions and Eugenics so I could make worker units, but even though it asks what I want now, it still only makes Runts. And even if I use the World Builder to remove that promotion, they're stuck with Runt work rates. Nuts.
     
  10. shoggi

    shoggi Team RifE Grunt

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Germany
    As requested, some of the stuff from the old team discussion about Jotnar, Posted here, because i think it makes a bit more sense to be here, than in the updated module threads.

    Warning: this is really old and i don't know if there was more recent discussions.
    If there were, they got lost when the rife forum vanished.


    Starting out with my overly critical playtest of the Jotnar.
    Part 1:
    Spoiler :

    Here are my thoughts on the jotnar as a whole, since Opera asked for some help/opinions on them. I specifically started a game to observe them and see how they tick, to find suggestions to make them better. I went into that game with the approach that i asked the question "do they really need this feature/mechanic?" every time i saw something that differs from standard civs.
    Some things i said already in #erebus, some are new.

    First things first: In my opinion the best approach to redesigning them would be to scrap all of them completely and start from scratch. They were coded pretty messy with a lot unnecessary stuff.

    Lore:
    For a civ that has so many weird going on, the lore is pretty sparse. I thought there would be more, but it's mostly just one short paragraph for everything, if even that, and then it's mostly descriptive in nature.
    Example: Troll Elder
    Quote:
    The oldest of Trolls, having gained not only in size, but also cunning and wisdom.
    He is a troll, an old one. and he is pretty smart and strong.
    I could have guessed strong and old by looking at it's stat and name. The flavortext is not telling me much interesting information.

    The Leaders:

    Mother Enningas is okay. Standard leader
    Father Kasghenal is nice, Symbolizing the darker side of them quite well. If the new lore will stay close to what little there is now, he can stay without changes too.
    Hephaestus is pretty awesome, though he probably needs to be redesigned to fit into the upcoming new leader schema.

    Uxol.... Uxol is a pretty good example what is wrong with the Jotnar. He s incredible unfocused. He has four traits: Arcane, buffing arcane units; Pretender, weakening Melee, Archery and Disciple; Treacherous, buffing Recon; Raiders, which doesn't even have anything to do with the little lore he has and seems to be there just for fun.
    If you want to have the player focus on arcane and recon, you don't need to weaken everything else. He would have been perfectly fine as just Arcane, Treacherous.


    Now to the ingame observations, all of them on the basis, that the base lore of them will stay more or less intact. Low (and dropping) birthrate, high strength, smaller races as thralls.

    The obvious thing: The spawn mechanic. It simply doesn't work for them. Either you get spammed with units you don't really need, or you have too few to of them to wage war properly.
    It works with the scions, because they have other ways to gain their spawned unit and they aren't totally crippled if they don't get a spawn in some time. The Jotnar are dependent on their spawns, since they will make up the majority of their army.
    The easiest change (what Opera suggested) would be to make it not random, but a counter like the Grigori Adventurers.
    There were some other suggestions.
    First one from me: Make every giantkin unit able to be build normally, but have a counter that increases for every one of them build, that makes every following giantkin unit more expensive.
    One from Jhoniten and Jheral: Units buildable normally, but with a soft limit, like the National Unit limit, but across all units, based on how much population you have in all cities. Since that somewhat encourages cityspam, you could make settlers unbuildable, instead spawning them at a certain city poplevel, symbolizing a population high enough to maintain a new city.

    Other things:

    Nearly every unit can build improvements. As much as i like it, it doesn't make much sense. Okay, so giants are huge and strong and can probably get a lot of work done if they want to. But then, why should one single giant be able to get more work done, than an entire battalion of Axeman? In most cases one unit doesn't really represent a single unit. It represents a group of them. So if you imagine the 100 Axeman or however many consist of one unit each grabbing a shovel and some tools, don't you think they would get work done as fast or faster than a single giant, where a unit clearly is just one giant?
    This concept would make a lot more sense with a civ like the dural where you could easily see their combat units being trained as builders.


    This is just what i noticed after roughly 100 turns. There will come more after i play longer.


    and part 2:
    Spoiler :
    Jotnar, the Return: Shoggis Story, Part Two - In which he became death, destroyer of worlds.

    So the game has progressed farther, i became unstoppable pretty fast. I'm pretty much mopping up the map at this point. Not done yet, but i don't think anything will stop me now. But that is not the point of this game.

    On to the observations:

    A point i forgot in the first post: Art! One giant unit shouldn't really represented by three or four models. That simply makes no sense. I know that had something to do with the Packmaster mechanic and the animal companions the units were supposed to get, but the packmaster promotions weren't very fitting in the first place (and kind of lazy executed, with 6 promos simply called packmaster). So if that mechanic is removed, or better, will not be added in the jotnar rebuild, one giant model per unit should really be status quo.

    Next, the kin promotions. In itself I like them. I say keep it in the rebuild. There are a bunch of different giants in most myths and fantasy stories. Fire Giants, Frost Giants, etc. This works very well to tackle that angle. But there a few things i don't like about them.
    First: They do a bit much. Each promotions has like 15 lines of effects. It would be nice to have the feel of them preserved, but the effects made simpler.
    Second: The spells associated with them. Each kin promotion has a spell associated with it. They mostly are worse versions of existing arcane spells.
    When i got them at first i thought the jotnar had no, or just limited access to arcane spells and needed to compensate for that somehow. Then I realized they had a perfectly normal Arcane line, with all the spells any other arcane unit can learn. So why the crap versions of them on the kin promotions? Do you really need a sucky version of spring a little bit earlier than all the other civs, because Seakin comes at Fishing?
    Third: The way they are gained. If the effects will be simplified, they don't really need to cost that much. Opera suggested (and plans to do, i assume), that they will be gained on build based on what terrain is around the city. So coastal cities have a high chance for Seakin, Cities with lots of hills a high chance for stonekin and so on. I like that. Removes micromanagement, while keeping the flavor and even strengthening it, since it makes more sense that for example frost giants come from frosty regions.

    Their Terrain bonus: Why are they more effective in tundra (ex-snow) than Taiga (ex-Tundra). Doesn't make much sense. Regardless how tough they are, it's still desolate snowy wasteland. Nobody lives, or likes to live there.

    Trolls: For claiming that giants should be few and the brunt of work and battle should be done by other "lesser" races, trolls are really under-represented.
    I barely build them, because i had always enough giants to do stuff. That needs to change. Trolls should play a bigger role, especially early on.

    Unique Units: For some reasons their unique units don't replace the normal ones and are completely unique. I've been to that this has something to do with Conqueror and then practically being able to build the giants. Still it exacerbates the messy coding they have already going on.

    Worker (again): Every unit can build improvements. I already said i don't like that.
    Though with that comes something else, that may have been intended that way by their creator, but I'm not sure about that.
    While every unit can build at standard speed, they have no dedicated improvement builder. Citizens can't take the skilled worker promotions, so i assume that while you probably are faster at building improvements in the beginning, at some point your units will work slower than a dedicated workforce.

    Thralls: They suck. Really, really suck. They suck at everything they do. They have a strength of 1/2, but can't attack, so the 1 attack strength is useless. 2 defense is to low to defend with them, except maybe against wolves and scouts.
    The workrate is laughable. They start at 20, so even with all skilled III they work barely fast than what speed jotnar citizens start at.
    So the main use for them would be that giants can eat them to gain another attack, which i haven't use one time, since the thralls are slower than giants, so they are a pain to take with the rest of your army.



    I already wrote about the spawn mechanic. I want to add to that, that i had at no point too few giants. this is more of balance issue with the current version, than with the mechanic itself. I had approximately 30+ Jotnar Citizens standing around. Some did some work, but most just added their +1 production bonus to cities they were in.


    In conclusion, some things i liked about them that should be kept in some way.
    The concept of a dwindling race, though the execution wasn't done that well.
    They can walk over mountains, which is a nice advantage to have, but not overpowering.
    If it would be done better, the differencing between giants and their lesser race thralls.Thralls for work and early combat, Giants for lategame domination.
    The concept of the kin promotions.
    The leaders, except Uxol.
    Their Nordic flavor. Most of the names and stuff was cool. But when names are hard to spell, or worse read, then you are going too far. I'm looking at you Sloegrrekkr!

    If i think of something else i will post that too, but for the moment this ends my test of them.


    Some of Operas plans for redesigning them:
    First Post:
    Spoiler :

    Jotnar

    Introduction

    I was asked to clean up the Jotnar. I took the night to think about it and came up with a lore foundation I like and which has some effects on gameplay as well. I'm watching Stargate SG-1 currently, you'll see the inspiration

    Lore

    Although I don't know yet where the Giants come from, I know they aren't fertile. Somehow, they lost the ability to make living babies; "living", because the females still lay weird eggs but nothing ever comes from them. For that, they found a solution thanks to Egrass the Founder: Trolls. Those big, kinda dumb creatures would be used as living, walking incubators.

    For that, the Giants attacked settlements of Trolls and made themselves their masters. Even for a Troll, a Giant was too big to take down. With their numbers back then, they had no chance.

    The sword had two edges though; the Giants needed more Trolls, which means the Trolls had more manpower in case they wanted to revolt. Fortunately, appeared something that would calm down the anger of the Trolls: Goblins.

    Goblins are unfortunate troll children who mutated in the womb of their mother and became small and skinny. Rejected by all in the Jotnar society, they are toys, for sex or for deadly games; they are cheap workforce as well and scapegoats.

    Gameplay

    The Trolls will have a more proeminent place among the Jotnar. Their number (as units) will have an impact on the citizen gen percent; maybe city pop will as well, since it would mean there's a lot of Trolls to be impregnated.

    Note that I would like to implement it that you have to be careful not to spam too many Trolls, in which case you could have uprising events.

    Here are the different unit lines that will be used by each race:

    Giants: Infantry, Ranged Infantry, Arcane, Disciple, Siege.
    Trolls: Infantry, Polearm, Archers, Ranged Infantry, Recon.
    Goblins: Rogue, Cavalry, Ranged Cavalry, Workers.

    I'm think they will have flavors towards peaks, arctic climates and, maybe, water. I would see them in a rather forested land as well; I'm not sure about the water because that's the "viking" theme for them and it doesn't fit in my mind, at all.

    Their manas will be: Body, Ice, Enchantment.

    I will keep the Kindred promotions, although I'm not set yet on how they will be gained.

    I don't believe they need 3-radius cities. I don't see the reason behind that; they're Giants yes but with the lore above, they're not gonna do the labour work anyway.

    Conclusion

    I hope to make them way less messy!


    Second post:
    Spoiler :
    Here are my plans:

    Trolls will be the main force, ie they will make up for the most of the buildable UUs. I'm not sure yet about thralls, don't care much about those.
    Goblins will be workers & the mounted line. They will be the only units able to build improvements.

    Giants will spawn like adventurers and per city.
    Each giant will have a kin promo granted at pop according to the city's surrounding. That will be the ONLY method, Valkrionn. Just, buying a kin promotion seems dumb. And that way I can make them distinctively powerful but not OP since you can't really predict them (like choosing Seakin for everyone to attack through the water).
    Kins won't provide silly spells.

    Giants will have two choices: either be settled in the city or be upgraded to be used as an army. Having Giants standing doing nothing will gain you nothing; they will also cost maintenance.

    Settling a giant: the first one will create a "House of the Hertogi" (or Hertogihus), a building giving properties different according to the leader (maybe the name will change between them as well, will see). Then subsequent giants in the city will be added as specialists. This is intended to give them a way to boost their cities effectively, using the giants for builder-games instead of warmongering.

    Arcane units will have some unique spells, not sure what yet. Actually maybe changing/choosing kins would happen here, though I'm not liking it.
    Basically Arcane units will be the same except maybe with a "class" more (Giant spells).
    Unitcombat exclusive to giants,...

    ... as will be the disciple line. Actually, just thinking of something:

    [[
    What about we give them a UB for each religious temple and make it so any giant can change its kin in a city with a religious temple? It would be some kind of "sacrifice" and "blessing" though, because it would lose its natural kin and won't be able to change it again!

    Quoting not-prime: "
    <not-prime> A certain class of jötnar are the fire jötnar (Múspellsmegir or eldjötnar), said to reside in Muspelheim, the world of heat and fire, ruled by the fire jötunn Surtr ("the black one"). T
    <not-prime> he main role of the fire jötnar in Norse mythology is to wreak the final destruction of the world by setting fire to the world at the end of Ragnarök, when the jötnar of Jotunheim and the forces of Hel shall launch an attack on the gods, and kill all but a few of them.
    <not-prime> tie-in to av ^_~
    "
    ]]

    So, I'm not sure what we'll do with divine units.

    Cities: normal radius cities. Really thinking of giving them the "3f/pop" thing to slow down their growth but it seems you people think it's too much of a hassle. I'd have balanced it with raw food bonuses from some UBs (like a Goblin Reproduction Chain ).

    That's all for now.



    And that is all i have for now. Will ask Opera if she has some design docs of them floating around.
     
  11. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Wow, thanks, loads to consider.

    Initial thoughts of where I hope the JotnarL module is addressing some of those concerns;
    • Mother Enningas is the only leader I've included so far, mainly as I didn't have the art for any others. I was going to look more closely at the leader characteristics when I had the artwork.
    • The spawn mechanic is gone. Units are buildable and the number of more powerful units is linked to the population through the citizens.
    • I've actually kept the Jotnar combat units as being able to build improvements. The way I justified this in my head was that because the giants were so few, they don't have the same luxury of being able to dedicate as much of their population to single tasks. Each giant must be prepared to lend a hand in whatever work needs to be done. My worry with this is whether the AI will use the same unit as a worker and then also as a combat unit at the appropriate times.
    • On the art front, I actually use a few artstyles for the Jotnar units. The basic artstyle is giants and then there are artstyles for the other two races; trolls and Runts. I still need more artwork for the troll units. The races make a big difference to the unit capabilities so I think that the different artstyles will help make it easier to quickly understand what their units strengths/weaknesses are. I also hope to create a wading artstyle to represent the giants when they're in coastal waters - that one is more just cause I think it will look nice rather than serving any other purpose.
    • Packmaster is gone. I didn't see a reason for it.
    • The module doesn't use the kin promotions. Fire Giants are the Berserker unit and mammoth riding Frost Giants replace War Chariots. The fire giants can only be built in a city near a volcano and the frost giants can only be built near glaciers/tundra.
    • I haven't given them terrain bonuses.
    • At the moment the base proportion of trolls to giants for recon units (before all the modifiers) is 1:3 and it's the opposite for other combat types. I could tweak that to give more trolls generally. As it is, a player who wants lots of trolls can build the Wild Moot wonder.
    • I've gone back to equating the Jotnar units with equivalent units in other races. I think all of those new classes might have been added in previous versions of the module so that number limits could have been included for the units.
    • I hadn't considered that the Jotnar improvement building rate would be much lower than other races. It does fit with the smaller population growth though so I don't think I'll change it unless people find that it's a major issue. Slavery would provide one possible solution for those who find the lack of workers limiting (these won't effect race calculations in next version).
    • Thralls are gone. The citizens themselves provide some early city defence.
    • The Jotnar can still walk over mountains but the giants can also walk in coastal waters.
    • I've tried to emphasise a Nordic feel more, using Norwegian translations to name units, e.g. Utemmet, Kriger, Munne and Stemme. I was considering going further with this and specifically removing the names that had Greek origins.
    • Opera's egg idea is interesting but wouldn't fit with my vision of their lore as it would stop them inter breeding with other races.
    • Events tied into relative race population would fit in the module but those kind of events are something I'd only do after everything else is pretty sorted.
    • Runts fill a similar role in my Jotnar society to that of the goblins in Opera's vision. I just also see a lot if them being murdered at birth though.
    • As it stands the tier 1 to 3 living units can be of any of the 3 races (except only Runts can ride horses) The tier 4 melee units; fire giants, frost giants and Vanir are all Giantkin.
    • I haven't changed their flavours yet. Peaks are an obvious flavour choice though.
    • I haven't changed the palace's starting mana. I'm open to suggestions but given that giants were forged as weapons of war, Chaos is going to be one of them.
    • The city radius is the standard 2 in the module. They have a wonder, for which I still don't have a decent name that will allow them to expand to a radius 3 city. I may link that to the Taxation tech as a bigger Jotnar city is more about having the legal structures to help bind the society together than sanitation issues.
    • As I'm not using the kin promos, that unique religious building idea won't come into it. Maybe I could include a building where an attempt is made to bring forth the giant/troll heritage of a runt. Either runt dies or changes race. As one of the world spells converts Runts to Giants/Trolls, I'll leave that on the long finger for now.
    • I'm keeping the disciple units who can serve any religion. The Munne (priests) and Stemme (high-priests) are effectively stunned for a couple of turns when the state religion changes though.

    Please forward on any other old info/discussions you have or any new ideas. Even the ideas I don't directly use can help me develop it further.
     
  12. Tholal

    Tholal Chieftain

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    They most definitely will not.
     
  13. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    I'm giving the AI free invisible, never hostile workers so that they have someone to do the work apart from the military units. Human players are stuck with dealing with the flexibility of the Jotnar units.

    Version 0.9 Issued.
     
  14. shoggi

    shoggi Team RifE Grunt

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    So, yeah. If there were any design documents regarding Jotnar, Opera lost them in a harddrive reformatting a couple months ago.

    So not much further information incoming there.
    Sorry about that.
     
  15. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    @Shoggi, thanks for trying.

    I've been thinking about the mana for the Jotnar and I'm leaning towards;
    Chaos; forged as weapons of war
    Law; bound by tradition so that they can work together as a society
    Body; big, strong species

    Chaos and Law are also the two mana types that can influence the race calculations.

    ---
    I've also been thinking about Uxol Half-Troll.
    I was going to give him a Supremacist trait.
    This would give the Hidden Loyalty promotion to all units.
    It would also influence the race calculations, to encourage a Troll focus over Giants and a very ruthless attitude to any Runts.
    Spoiler :

    At the moment, when a new unit is built, it will always be a Runt if
    Total number of Citizens + iFreeUnits < total number of non-Citizen Trolls + total number of non-Citizen Giants
    For a Supremacist, when a new unit is built, it will always be a Runt if
    Total number of Citizens + iFreeUnits < (total number of non-Citizen Trolls/2) + (total number of non-Citizen Giants*2)

    If the Citizen population allows new Giant/Troll units but there are some Runts, then the base Runt population for the race calculation will be taken as if it was four times bigger for a Supremacist.


    This would give him his own play style as most units should be Trolls (high attack/weak against recon when young/animal invisibility when old) and these trolls could never go Feral.

    I could also replace the palace's Chaos mana with Mind mana to reflect Uxol's powers of persuasion.
     
  16. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Version 0.10 added.

    This adds the leaders; Kasghenal and Uxol and extends the race assignment to great people, as well as adding few other changes.
     
  17. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Version 0.11 issued.
     
  18. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Version 0.12 added.

    Big changes were giving the Disciple lines access to al of the religious spells and the Stemme their own unique spell and sorting out the naval forces so the FiskFlokk can lead an army of sea creatures. One of the world spells now converts Egrass into Egrass the Warrior as well as converting Citizens to Militia. All changes are outlined in post 2.
     
  19. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Version 0.13 added.

    My focus for this version was to make sure the AI is working well. The Jotnar now perform similar to the other AI civ with Uxol/Enningas with a decent start location and Kasenghal does consistently better than the others. This is with all of the AI playing at Noble.
    I had tried to train the AI to take full advantage of the race assignment mechanic but edits to cvGameUtils slowed down the processing too much. The AI have some extra free units but I've tried to make them deal with their units a bit more like a human (drowning runt warriors/killing off runt fort commanders/etc). Uxol is fairly ruthless in disposing of Runts.

    The python has all been tidied up, removing some of my early bug hunting comments. Issues with CTD seem to have been solved - I've autoplayed games to turn 500.

    Capsizer art now uses benwooten's Kraken Attack (his art can be seen on deviantart.com).

    I'll list the other changes in the change log in the second post.

    AoE compatable files also added to first post.

    --------

    For some reason, the Jotnar can still build Disciple units even though the CivilizationInfos lists the applicable UnitType for the UnitClasses as NONE. Does anyone know how I can fix it so the Jotnar can not build these units?

    The Jotnar also build their roads in coastal water tiles. Anyone know how this can be stopped?
     
  20. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    I've updated to version 0.14.

    Big changes are;
    • the addition of a load of Jotnar events, emphasising race issues.
    • addition of Stemme Lika as a new Jotnar leader. As a tolerant egaliatarian, he's probably the nicest leader in Erebus. He's there to make a non Giant/Troll focus more viable and balance the other leaders a bit.
    • Melting Pot civic now gives a chance of getting other races instead of Runts.
    • Pure Blood Lines trait gives a great person emergence penalty.


    The delay in issuing an update has been bug hunting early crash(es):cry:. This has resulted in some overall tidying within the module. Changes will be detailed in post above.
     

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