Module - Normal units as commanders

[far_wanderer]

Normal Units as Commanders is a module that allows units of level 10 or higher to take promotions that use the commander/minion system, and for Great Commanders to upgrade along normal unit paths.

Version 2.1 - updated FF+ version to RiFE 1.12

Changelog for version 2:

Spoiler :

• Commander promotion now requires level 10
• Field Medicine now correctly requires the Commander promotion, and is now available to all commander unitcombats
• Commander promotion causes the unit to use single-unit graphics and reduces upgrade costs by 50% (idea: ricolikesrice)
• Donal Lugh command limit reduced to 1, given Commander promotion
• Rantine and Magnadine given Commander promotion
• Ogre Warchief returned to unitcombat Melee
• Great Commanders (and UU's) start with the Commander promotion and can upgrade to Warriors, Scouts, and Huscarls (idea: ricolikesrice)
• All commander promotions except Trailblazer and Mounted Convoy now available to all unit types.
• Veteran and Tamer promotion lines removed
• Militia Leader temporarily disabled due to compatibility issues with FF+.
• Commander Defense, Religious Leader, and Field Survey promotions disabled (made to require commander defense 2)
• Field Commander, Battlefield Tactician, Battle Commander, Tactical Knowledge, and Subtle Tactics now available to all commander unitcombats and require the Commander promotion
• Infiltrator, Wilderness Expert, and Trailblazer now use the Field Survey icons.

In addition, there is now an FF version and an FF+ compatible version.

Original changelog:

Spoiler :

Commander promotion available at level 8 to Melee, Recon, Mounted, Disciple, Archery (Arcane units are currently out due to potential conflicts with Dominate). Gives a command limit of 3 and allows access to Command Limit 1/2/3 and Command Range 1/2/3. Also allows access to the following additional promotions (minion promotions not listed are unchanged):

Melee

• Siege Commander 1 (with City Raider 2)
• Siege Commander 2 (with City Raider 3 and Siege Commander 1)
• Artillery Master (with Siege Commander 2)
• Veteran 1 (with Combat 3). Grants minions Loyalty
• Veteran 2 (with Combat 5 and Veteran 1). Grants minions Valor
• Veteran 3 (with Veteran 2). Grants minions Veteran Training
• (Veteran Training = +1 strength to Adept, Disciple, Melee, Archery, Recon, Mounted)

Recon

• Trailblazer. Grants minions Trailblazed
• (Trailblazed = ignore movement costs to all but Naval)
• Wilderness Expert. (with Woodsman 1 or Guerilla 1). Grants minions Wilderness Training
• (Wilderness Training = can gain defensive bonuses for Mounted and Siege)
• Infiltrator (with Commando). Grants minions Infiltrating
• (Infiltrating = can use enemy roads for all but Naval)
• Tamer 1 (with Subdue Animals). Gives minions Tamed 1
• (Tamed 1 = +20% withdrawal and +1 Strength for Animals and Beasts)
• Tamer 2 (with Subdue Beasts and Tamer 1). Grants minions Tamed 2
• (Tamed 2 = +2 first strikes and +1 movement for Animals and Beasts)

Mounted

• Mount Convoy (with Stirrups). Grants minions Mounted Convoy
• (Mounted Convoy = +2 movement, no defensive bonus for Worker, Adept, Archer, Disciple, Melee, Recon)

Disciple

• Field Medic 1 (with Medic 1)
• Field Medic 2 (with Medic 2)
• Arcane Mentor 1. Grants Arcane Student to Disciple units as well
• Arcane Mentor 2. See above.

Archery

• Garrison Commander 1 (with City Garrison 2). Grants Defensive Station to Melee, Adept, Disciple, Animal, Beast, Mounted, and Recon now
• Garrison Commander 2 (with City Garrison 3). See above
• Archery Commander 1 (with Archery 2)
• Archery Commander 2 (with Archery 3)
• Militia Leader (With City Garrison 1) Grants minions Militia
• (Militia = +3 Strength for Workers (who can now attack))

To do/awaiting suggestions:

1. Button artwork.
2. Naval command promotions

NOTE: I have not technically found any conflicts with the Bannor CoC module, but I still suggest you disable it because it does something quite similar to this module and I have made no attempt to balance them when combined.

 

[WarKirby]

This sounds quite neat, actually.

Looks like it would interfere with the normal operation of commanders though, unless you cloned every commander promotion or used pyreqs to apply different conditions to commanders, and other unitcombats

 

[far_wanderer]

This sounds quite neat, actually.

Looks like it would interfere with the normal operation of commanders though, unless you cloned every commander promotion or used pyreqs to apply different conditions to commanders, and other unitcombats

It most definitely interferes with Great Commanders, my intention is to eventually replace them entirely (point 5 on the to-do list). They're still around right now because they give the AI something to play with and it's a lot of work to remove things with a module.
I'd like to make it so they are used up when they make a Command Post or use Recruit, and give them the ability to sacrifice to give a unit the Commander promotion (bypassing the level 8 requirement and saving them a promotion buy). One or two additional one-shot abilities would also be nice, but the end point is that I don't want them sticking around as an additional unit type.

 

[WarKirby]

One or two additional one-shot abilities would also be nice, but the end point is that I don't want them sticking around as an additional unit type.

Why don't you want them sticking around, I wonder?

I rather like the concept of having seperate commander units. For one, it means they can be assassinated.

 

[far_wanderer]

Why don't you want them sticking around, I wonder?

I rather like the concept of having seperate commander units. For one, it means they can be assassinated.

The concept of a commander who can't fight and moves slowly doesn't really work in a fantasy setting for me. I like to envision my commanders as being better than their subordinates. If, by some chance, there was someone who couldn't fight but was still a good commander, and that person was able to gain military authority, I still don't think they would be sent to the front lines. Maybe the Dural would recognize the usefulness of a tactician, but I don't think anyone else would.

 

[Iskar Jarak]

But if the commander is not at the front then he (or she) can't make informed decisions quickly enough to make a difference, so being at the front is essential. As for fighting "A general who draws his sword has put aside his baton and become a common soldier." - Robert Jordan

 

[Iceciro]

Fighters are basically trained as fodder, especially back in Medieval times. They aren't taught strategy, just which end of the pointy stick to push into the enemy. Commanders make sure that they can maneuver those sticks into enemy squishy bits, but they don't do the poking themselves. I believe the Bannor's command system reflects the fact that they, like the ancient Spartans, are a true warrior's society and thus they are taught a little more about strategy than the common man of another nation.

 

[HadesScorn]

Iceciro- true, but only at the point that large unit combat replaced the older forms. Even as late as the 30 Years War a commander was expected to be among the best on the battlefield, even if he was not leading a particular charge. Try telling Gustavus Adolphus that he shouldn't join in on a raid and see how far you get. [Of course, if he had listened to Wordsmith McJordan, he wouldn't have died in a totally useless battle, but we can't let awkward facts get in the way of broad generalizations, now can we?]

Back on topic, this is an interesting idea. For now, it may fill the void that I hope someone [read Not Me] will fully repair by creating unique Great Commanders that fit into each civ [ie Horse units for Hippus, Mages for Amurites, etc]

 

[far_wanderer]

Back on topic, this is an interesting idea. For now, it may fill the void that I hope someone [read Not Me] will fully repair by creating unique Great Commanders that fit into each civ [ie Horse units for Hippus, Mages for Amurites, etc]

Arcane units are out unless someone develops a way around the Dominate conflict, but other than that this module already allows existing heroes to become commanders.

 

[WarKirby]

The concept of a commander who can't fight and moves slowly doesn't really work in a fantasy setting for me. I like to envision my commanders as being better than their subordinates. If, by some chance, there was someone who couldn't fight but was still a good commander, and that person was able to gain military authority, I still don't think they would be sent to the front lines. Maybe the Dural would recognize the usefulness of a tactician, but I don't think anyone else would.

There are three commander UUs, and the base commander unit. modding all of them to have some attack strength and/or access to extra movement enhancing stuff, wouldn't be too hard.

Commanders will be hasteable, and be able to learn both levels of Mobility in Patch C, amongst other things.


Also, the chislev Warchief already has attack strength, and can directly kill. Give him a try sometime : )

 

[far_wanderer]

There are three commander UUs, and the base commander unit. modding all of them to have some attack strength and/or access to extra movement enhancing stuff, wouldn't be too hard.

At that point, you've simply made commanders into normal units, which is exactly what I've already done but just in reverse and in a more complicated way.

Commanders will be hasteable, and be able to learn both levels of Mobility in Patch C, amongst other things.

Which just drags out the current problems. What is special about a commander that allows them to get Mobility when arcane units can't? Why does a commander have the same combat capability whether he's part of an army of mithril swords and armor or loincloths and clubs? Why does some guy that showed up because my archers hid behind a wall and shot a lot get to command armies but my 300 year old Immortal who has cleared entire continents of barbarians apparently doesn't know anything about combat?

Also, the chislev Warchief already has attack strength, and can directly kill. Give him a try sometime : )

Him and the Bannor module are what gave me the idea.

 

[deadliver]

I like this idea with the unit representing the general's personal force which includes his bodyguard. Having different types of commanders across the unitcombat line would be realistic too I think.

Nice module, I think I'll steal it for Warhammer.

 

[Iskar Jarak]

Why does some guy that showed up because my archers hid behind a wall and shot a lot get to command armies but my 300 year old Immortal who has cleared entire continents of barbarians apparently doesn't know anything about combat?

The person commanding the unit probably does know a lot about combat, he prbably leads from the front and knows quite a bit about tactics. there is a saying "amateurs study tactics, dilettantes study strategy, and professionals study logistics." The Great Commander is a separate unit because it represents the generals, their command staff and guards, and they are leading armies not merely singly units.

 

[Hawkwood]

As for fighting "A general who draws his sword has put aside his baton and become a common soldier." - Robert Jordan

From what I've read on websites on historical warfare, Jordan is good at describing and wrting about indutrial-era warfare, but doesn't know much about anything earlier. I haven't read his books myself, but I remember someone saying: "but don't look at Jordan for realistic depictions of pre-20th century warfare. His Aiel often seems like the Viet Cong, and many of his battle scenes--especially the night battles--look like they'd fit better in the Tet Offensive than in a medieval battlefield".

EDIT: About commanders fighting on the frontline: While Gustavus Adolphus and Alexander the Great (didn't get mentioned, but another famous general personally leading the cavalry charges) both fought on the frontlines, it might be more interesting to look at those with less "warrior-king" personalities, and if we do they still personally fought: The more cautious (and some might say cowardly) Darius III fled when Alexander charged him at Issus and Gaugamela, however Darius fought in both battles (or at lest he was in the frontlines).

 

[WarKirby]

What is special about a commander that allows them to get Mobility when arcane units can't?

Yes they can. Any unitcombat can learn mobility I

Why does a commander have the same combat capability whether he's part of an army of mithril swords and armor or loincloths and clubs?

Perhaps because he takes only the most basic of actual combat training, and focueses his time on logistics and strategy from there.

Why does some guy that showed up because my archers hid behind a wall and shot a lot get to command armies but my 300 year old Immortal who has cleared entire continents of barbarians apparently doesn't know anything about combat?
Him and the Bannor module are what gave me the idea.

Your immortal knows plenty about combat. Like how to annihilate 20 men standing before him. What he doesn't know, especially because he's an immortal, is how to effectively command others. how to motivate other troops to fight at their fullest. How to know when morale is running low and order a retreat, etc. Immortals are generally loners, often considered insane. Outliving everyone around them slowly drives them to madness, and makes it difficult for them to make friends. They don't fit in ith normal men. Would be treated as different. So getting normal soldiers to respect an immortal would be harder than a normal human commander. With his tireless immortal body, he has long forgotten how much a man can take before death. His knowledge that he will always be reborn makes him fearless, and so he has trouble comprehending concepts like morale - that others might be afraid to die.


Generally, I'd say the commander's combat strength represents him, personally. As one man. 5 strength is pretty good for one guy. It doesn't represent his bodyguard or troops, because the other units in the stack are that. He's designed to be kept in a stack at all times. And much like arcane units are weak because they devote their time to studying magic, the commander doesn't gain strength or learn to use new weapons because he spends his time standing atop a hill at the back lines, shouting orders to the men. Or reading through records of previous battles, looking for tactical mistakes to improve upon. Or giving speeches to the men to motivate them, make them fight harder, and be less likely to run.

Of course in a world of heroes, it's not like one man can't make a difference as a soldier, too. Hence why I'd suggest allowing commanders to gain combat capability, rather than letting normal units be commanders.

But when it comes down to it, the primary reason to have a seperate commander unit, is so they can be affected seperately. So that they can be resistant to mind effects their weak-minded troops fall victim to. So they can perhaps be given special commandr-only equipment or promotions. And most importantly for me, so that they can be countered by assassins.

 

[far_wanderer]

Yes they can. Any unitcombat can learn mobility I

But not Mobility 2, and Commanders already have two movement. So if mages and commanders are both single people untrained in combat, why can a commander learn to move twice as fast?

Perhaps because he takes only the most basic of actual combat training, and focueses his time on logistics and strategy from there.

I specifically avoided mentioning training. Wooden clubs vs. Mithril swords is the issue.

Your immortal knows plenty about combat. Like how to annihilate 20 men standing before him. What he doesn't know, especially because he's an immortal, is how to effectively command others. how to motivate other troops to fight at their fullest. How to know when morale is running low and order a retreat, etc. Immortals are generally loners, often considered insane. Outliving everyone around them slowly drives them to madness, and makes it difficult for them to make friends. They don't fit in ith normal men. Would be treated as different. So getting normal soldiers to respect an immortal would be harder than a normal human commander. With his tireless immortal body, he has long forgotten how much a man can take before death. His knowledge that he will always be reborn makes him fearless, and so he has trouble comprehending concepts like morale - that others might be afraid to die.

So Immortals were a bad example. Consider a Champion, then.

Generally, I'd say the commander's combat strength represents him, personally. As one man. 5 strength is pretty good for one guy. It doesn't represent his bodyguard or troops, because the other units in the stack are that. He's designed to be kept in a stack at all times.

That would be the core of our disagreement, then, because I consider all of the units to be individuals.

And much like arcane units are weak because they devote their time to studying magic, the commander doesn't gain strength or learn to use new weapons because he spends his time standing atop a hill at the back lines, shouting orders to the men. Or reading through records of previous battles, looking for tactical mistakes to improve upon. Or giving speeches to the men to motivate them, make them fight harder, and be less likely to run.
Of course in a world of heroes, it's not like one man can't make a difference as a soldier, too. Hence why I'd suggest allowing commanders to gain combat capability, rather than letting normal units be commanders.

Which is exactly the end result I've accomplished. If a unit wants to be better at commanding, they stop getting any other promotions.

But when it comes down to it, the primary reason to have a seperate commander unit, is so they can be affected seperately. So that they can be resistant to mind effects their weak-minded troops fall victim to. So they can perhaps be given special commandr-only equipment or promotions. And most importantly for me, so that they can be countered by assassins.

Here's an interesting series of facts: my commanders are still separate units from their troops, already have special commander-only promotions, and are still just as vulnerable to assassins as any other unit. I haven't abstracted commanders off of the battlefield, I've just made them part of the army.

 

[Iceciro]

Part of me wants to chime in with pieces of what both of you are saying, but you know - it's a module, people can use it at their discretion depending on whether this fits how they want commanders to work or not.

 

[far_wanderer]

Part of me wants to chime in with pieces of what both of you are saying, but you know - it's a module, people can use it at their discretion depending on whether this fits how they want commanders to work or not.

Normally, I'd be inclined to agree, but the discussion has actually been giving me a lot of good ideas for the next version.

 

[Valkrionn]

That would be the core of our disagreement, then, because I consider all of the units to be individuals.

That right there is actually the reason I prefer the FF commanders... I've never been one to picture units as single people. Hell, I even think Assassins and Mages come in groups, or at least have a retinue.

That said... I still like this idea.

 

[Iceciro]

Yeah, I've never thought this was man-on-man combat. I like to think, for example, the Swordsman unit is also a unit of trained swordsmen, and the Lunatics (which show a lot of dudes) is a raving mob of psychos (hence the collateral damage to other units in the stack), and a Commander is him, plus his retinue and support staff.

Always considered mages to be single units, though.