Monarch Frustration -- Is Balance Possible

[USC]

BTW in your poll, I voted "expansion." Later on, you will seek more balance. But... in my PARTICULAR playstyle, which is by far not the only (though many traits are common to most players on these forums), beginning builds are:

- exploring units
- settlers/workers/cheap upgrade-purpose units or granaries/barracks followed by settlers/c. u. p. u. 's
- occasionally a wonder if I really want to try a wonder gambit (ancient-age wonder strategies are on the higher levels by definition gambits)

The idea is to spread like wildfire, something called "REX" (Rapid EXpansion) by many players. You want only just enough military to minimize the number of AI extortions (which are based on your military strength) and the amount you need to spend on entetainment.

Here's an example of one of the alternatives to how I play:

The archer rush gambit. You expand less and invest the shields saved in archers (preferably from barracks), then make a very focused, well-considered attack on a neighbor, generally intending to weaken him, grab a little land, and then make peace and extort techs/a few more cities rather than to take him out. The archer rush works better the more of the below apply: you are a mil. civ, you have culturally-linked pansy-a**ed neighbors, you are an industrious civ, you are playing a level high enough for them to have something to take, you are playing a level low enough to have a rat's chance of pulling it off. (A failed archer rush is generally Ctrl-Shift-Q material.)

HTH

USC

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by THE WIZ
My big question: Is balance possible? Or am I deceiving myself and should I focus on something specific? If I should focus, I am sure that most players here will tell me to focus on the military...but I want to know what you all think.

Yes, I believe there is a balance in the game just as in RL, but I haven't found it yet. For example, one can not go to college and get a degree in everything all at once. Even if one is very gifted, it's still a very hard to acomplish. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to get a degree in CompS first, then Math, then Psych, then whatever else. Instead of trying to do everything all at once, just try to focus on a few things at a time. For example, there is a proper time for peace, time for expansion, time for trade, time for building improvement, time to focus on reseach, etc. IMO, a good Civ player isn't the one who have found the balance in the game, but one who have mastered different stages of the game. For example, during the expansion stage, one should focus strictly on expansion and do not waste time and shields on military build up or whatever. During the conquest stage, one should focus strictly on mass producing military units for the quick kill (once the war is over, there will be plenty of time for other things). To learn more about different stages in the game, check out the GOTM forum, the War Academy Forum, and the HoF forum (I think I'm forgetting a couple forum here). The HoF forum is a good place to read about different stages of the game. Usually expansion seem to be the first stage of the game (it could last until 10 AD), then come the military build up stage (usually after 10 AD), then the conquest stage (usually finished by 1000 AD), then the peaceful building (or milking) stage. Of course, there are always other mini-stages that need to be executed all the time to clear the way for the primary stages. For example, during the peaceful expansion stage, it's possible to stir up a little war among the AIs (if they are spending most of their times killing each others, it would make our conquest stage a lot easier to execute).

 

[THE WIZ]

Awesome points MS. I was fuzzy on where the stages begin and end. For example, if you go to the military buildup too early playing Persia (my current obsession), then usually by 1000AD you are @ss out of luck with your UU's, as they are easily defeated by Knights.

Same thing would probably be true with the Romans.

If you concentrate on military from 1 AD on, will you have enough units for the conquest? What about improvements that come with later tech? Ignore them and build them later, save the occasional wonder?

 

[CellarDweller22]

Originally posted by Moonsinger


.... there is a proper time for peace, time for expansion, time for trade, time for building improvement, time to focus on reseach....

For some strange reason, a song comes to mind.....

-- From The Cellar

Or.... wait! Isn't that Ecclesiastes 3?

 

[kb2tvl]

heh, yea there is a season for all things but you can decide on what season you are in... You can choose to pursue the peaceful route until a time in which you wish to become militraristic or win with a culature/diplomatic victory which would have a minimum amount of fighting.

In any case, moving workers manually, pursuing a 40 turn research gambit post ancient age and knowing how to trade techs is of the greatest importantance irregardless of which path you choose to follow.

 

[Strengefuhrer]

I play germans and they start with bronze working + warrior code making them start with archers/spearmen (with swordsmen on the way). This makes them greeeaat early attackers (especially against feeble warriors).
I will usually expand as much as possible in the direction I think my rivals might expand (I leave safe land for later). If I meet an enemy, I expand until I reach him, I'll try to build a road to his empire. Then I'll send my archers/spearmen/swordsmen to kill him. Unless he's a civ with a good early UU (greeks, persians, rome) then I can usually break his warriors and few spearmen.
By this point I am usually slightly behind in tech so I make peace before the end in exchange for technology.
I'll do this until all civs are either too far, or too much defense for the effort. At that points I'll expand like crazy into areas the rivals might expand.
This is my peace/buildup point. Once I have monarchy I'll pick a weak rival (if any) and after building up an army (usually of knights by this point) I isolate and take him down.
I continue this strategy of select, isolate (diplomatically) the enemy until it is impossible in which case I switch to democracy and hope to out tech the enemy.
If it comes to that is usually lose :-(

 

[cgannon64]

Expansion and Trading are most important in the beginning for me. Military and Culture comes after I've filled out my borders.

 

[kokoras]

It is the combined effort of all.
1)You see expanding without a minimum military force is pointles,by the first attack you'll start loosing one city after another.
2)Do not pay attention at trading is not possible,the economy will go deep into the chaos that means forget about being a strong nation.Not to mention that by trading you make friends,it is vital.
3)As for the culture,well i never liked only to admire others,there must be something that i can offer as well,plus building libraries/universities etc which help you expand your borders,also provides a faster way of getting new tech(increase science),very very important.
So...it is a diplomatic responce...

 

[Affirmative]

I just recently moved up to monarch, and will probably go to deity, and get destroyed. But hey...



I personally like the commercial trait. It's a nice head start on the alphabet>writing>lit>GL thing I like to do.

As soon as I found my capital I either build two warriors or two scouts (for scouting ), and then a spearman for defense and MP.
I set science to 20% writing. This 20% science allows me lots of extra money for the lux slider, and can therefore get the maximum despo production from my citizens. I then start work on a settler and move him to a nice location.

Now, depending on the land around me, I'll either try to make another settler factory, or start a palace pre-build for the GL.

I continue to expand and produce more cities, each starting with first a spearman and then a settler. (On sedentary barbs, otherwise I include a warrior escort)

Sooner or later I'll get literature, and then switch the palace up with the GL. I then take my science to 0%, no scientists, nothing. I depend entirely on my palace pre-build.

I never hoard techs; I freely trade them, might as well make friends and get some extra gold. Besides, AIs can never pre-build, so I almost always beat them to the GL. If I miss, there is always Ctrl-Shift-Q.

I will then ride the GL, go to monarchy, build up massive gold stores, make a bunch of friends, build the inner workings of my empire, and by Chivalry have some 30-so horsemen ready for upgrade. This is where those gold stores come in really handy. For 80 gold you can upgrade a horseman to knight. (40 if you managed to snag Leonardo's workshop.)

Those 30 knights can keep your weakest neighbor (but rich in resources and lux) occupied, while you continue to build up your military to an even higher level.

Hopefully you can get a good amount of luxury items and raw materials from your war, and then have some good bargaining materials for the rest of the world.


Sooner or later Education will come, and the GL will cease to be useful. The coffers come in handy here also. You can up science to 100%, even at a 60-100 GPT loss, without really killing yourself. As soon as you beat the AI to a tech, such as printing press, you can immediately trade it to the rest of the world, and start stripping the AI's monetary income. The AI will then have to slow his own tech pace, leaving you with at least a 3 to 4 turn slack.

The GPT deals will keep large rival civs off your back, because they won't, often , backstab you. ROPs come in handy too.

By cavalry you can start another war with a rich neighbor, and take over some more, if you feel like it.




Pretty much foolproof. Unless you miss the GL... Or perhaps I missed something.



*Edit for grammar and spelling*

 

[bluebox]

another way - even more early expansion through settling. i believe the idea of a settler factory isn't mentioned here yet. this applies for the "peaceful expansion stage", as moonsinger calles it.

take your capital and try to get a steady settler output from it. build a granary there; then you need 10 food for a new citizen until the city grows over size 6. additionally, a settler needs 30 shields.
a four turn settler factory starts at size 5. these 5 citizens should produce 5 food plus 7 shields. 2 turns later, the city grows to size 6. these 6 citizens should produce 5 food and 8 shields. after 2 more turns the city is expected to grow to size 7, but in the same turn, the settler is ready. he takes two citizens away, the city goes back to size 5 and you start the process again.

this method depends on the quality of the starting position. basically you need 3 bonus resources within city range, especially cattle, wheat. try to do the maths; you can also make 5 turn - or 6 turn settler factories, depending on the power of the starting location.

overall, keeping an eye on settler production brings you in the position where you produce more settlers quicker than any ai-civ, therefore you get more free units, money, territory, citizens etc. early on.

 

[Atotarho]

Trade, definately. Its the only way you can keep up with the AIs. Expansion, the most important part of the game. In the early game the quicker you expand the more money and units you can produce.

I also like to produce a few archers and go a plundering on one of my nearest neighbours ASAP. A couple of quick cities near someone elses territory gives you an invasion platform for later and really slows down their development, so they are easier to roll over later.

Its all balance Grasshopper, go too far one way or the other and the AI will came a visiting on you.

 

[Reynoulds #]

Remember, if you're playing C3C, trading maps and contacts is delayed until the end of the medieval era.

Some times you can produce settlers faster if you build them in cities with a population of 5 or 6 rather than at a pop of 3.

Don't become reliant upon wonders, specifically the Great Library. On higher levels, it is nearly impossible to build.

Watch out if C3C, most of us are still playing C3C with our PTW strategies.

 

[THE WIZ]

All of these suggestions are great! I guess what is so impressive about the game is that so many possibilities exist. So, over the weekend, I played a few new strategies. I tried out military, but I don't think I built enough. The GL is an amazing resource if you can get it. I build up over 1000 gold, and that helps. But then, something weird triggers on Monarch. When I get new tech, all of a sudden, none of the AI have anything to trade for it. They all will not accept a GPT trade. Maybe it is my reputation by then. Also, all the welfare civs suddenly, once education is discovered, even Babylon that I had down to no gold, no resources, and 1 city, who was soooo behind in tech, all of a sudden had 3 more tech than I did, as soon as my library was useless. Then, it is IMPOSSIBLE to catch up after that. All the money in the world can't keep me afloat. How do I fight that? Something I can't control? I guess my new strategy will be around the chivalry stage, or just before, start building tech that goes around education, so I have something to bargain with after? Any ideas?

Keep the ideas flowing....they are helping.

 

[kb2tvl]

There is this "curve" in civ 3. If any one civ gets too far ahead in certain areas then another civ will attempt to slow that civ down. The various methods to win include domination, culture, diplomatic and histograph.

If you are ahead in any one catagory then the ai will try to slow your progress down. I would guess that you have a lot of culture in your capitol or where ever you built the gl. This would put you in competition for a culture victory and the ai will take steps to prevent you from keeping a cultural dominance by allowing other civs to build wonders not available to you yet. This is pretty typical if you build the gl.

The best way to get on track with research is to buy tech from the ai and the best way to do that is to set your reasearch to 1 tech per 40 turns and hire a single scientist. Typically, if a tech is owned by only one civ, that tech is very expensive to purchase and if you are the third owner of a tech then the tech becomes much cheaper.

As a final note, you can buy tech latter and prebuild wonders using other wonders or using a palace or forbidden palace.

 

[dojoboy]

W/ expansion as a given, I lean towards diplomacy/trade/economics while beefing up defenses.

 

[Atotarho]

Originally posted by THE WIZ
But then, something weird triggers on Monarch. When I get new tech, all of a sudden, none of the AI have anything to trade for it. They all will not accept a GPT trade.

Also, all the welfare civs suddenly, once education is discovered, even Babylon that I had down to no gold, no resources, and 1 city, who was soooo behind in tech, all of a sudden had 3 more tech than I did

They may not trade because you dont have enough money, even at gpt, available. The techs get much more expensive as you move along, especially if there is only one CIV that knows it (remember this when you get to be selling), wait until a few more CIVs get it and try again. I also find that if there is a wonder attached to a tech the AI is reluctant to part with it, might be just me ??, shop around until you find one that will.

It doesnt take a lot to catch up if your several techs behind, old era techs known by everyone are pretty cheap to buy.

 

[THE WIZ]

Interesting point. Although if I was offered 101 gpt for a gunpowder tech, I would take it. The prices in GOTY seem to be much higher (for me anyway) than vanilla. It really makes me think that the AI cheats

 

[USC]

THE WIZ:

Unfortunately, it seems like the AI for GPT deals got short shrift during the AI programming. The AI really does consider yours and its CURRENT income/turn, and...

- NOT its/your gold reserves
- NOT the fact that current income is also a function of science rate, which will not always be the same as this turn
- NOT the natural tendency for income to rise (but since reserves are ignored, this wouldn't matter anyway)

It will NEVER use deficit spending, and NEVER accept deficit spending... though you CAN use the cheap trick of dropping your science rate before coming to the table, and raising it back to normal before the end of your turn.

USC

 

[THE WIZ]

Good responses gang...lets keep it up. Now I seem to be good in the first phase, but now the second (or third) phase is wearing me down. It happens right after the GL expires. How do I keep in tech from 1000+? I have about 1000 gold built up, and even when I offer 98 gpt and cash, they refuse me? WHY?

Then, if I buy one at an outrageous price, they are 3 or 4 ahead of me! I can't believe how fast they build. it is almost like each one builds a different tech, and then they all share them together for nothing. ARGH!

So I am the last to everything always, and no matter how much I buy I can't catch up. I end up turning to war.

What are better strategies? How do you use scientists? When do you build them? How many entertainers do you try to have per city? Do you sacrifice new citizen growth for entertainers/scientists?

Do libraries and Universities in cities help that much? How do I stay afloat in tech?

Thanks for the continued support of this post. I am already a way better more informed player, but I still can't win on Monarch.

The Wiz

P.S. Like your nick Wizard

 

[Arathorn]

What are better strategies?

Either buy or research. Don't try a mix, in general. Check out some Succession Games for good examples of coming from behind in tech and/or exploiting a tech lead.

How do you use scientists?

Before C3C, specialists were uniformly bad and should rarely be used. Even in C3C, they're of dubious value -- occasionally having it and occasionally not. To get a scientist, click on an entertainer's head while in the city-view screen and he'll change from entertainer to taxman and then to scientist.

How many entertainers do you try to have per city?

Zero. Seriously, unless my empire is so large that I have loads of distant, terribly corrupt cities (where I don't mind running entertainers), I will have one or two total MAX (usually zero) in my entire empire. If a city requires an entertainer, I will do one of the following, in general:
- Trade for a luxury/acquire another luxury in war
- Increase the luxury tax
- Build a worker or a settler to use that excess population
- Build something that helps happiness (temple, cathedral, marketplace)
in approximately that order.

Do you sacrifice new citizen growth for entertainers/scientists?

Never. (Well, hardly ever. I might for a turn or two if that one scientist makes a difference in my total time to next tech. But only in EXTREMELY rare circumstances.)

Do libraries and Universities in cities help that much?

If you're putting a lot of resources into research, they absolutely do. If you're running 0% or 10% science, then, no, they don't. They add 50% and 100% respectively to your base science output, which is your city's total commerce, minus corruption, times your percentage of science.

Examples:
1. Running science at 0%. City produces 40 commerce after corruption. Base science output is 0, so the library and university add nothing.

2. Running science at 40%. City produces 40 commerce, still. Base science output is .4 * 40 = 16. Library adds 25% of that (4) and university adds 50% of that (8), for a grand total of 16+4+8 = 28 science beakers from the city. Total gain from the buildings is 12. Not bad but running 40% science is not often a good strategy (you want to be @ maximum (4 turn research rate) or @minimum in most cases)

3. Running science at 90%. City produces 40 commerce. Base science output is 36. Library adds 9 and university 18 for 63 total, of which 27 comes from the buildings. In this case, it's almost as good as having another large city.

How do I stay afloat in tech?

Step 1: Maximize your base commerce by growing cities, roading everywhere, fighting corruption intelligently, and keeping costs down.

Step 2: Pick either trading or research and FOCUS on that. This emphasis might change over the course of the game, but whichever you pick, maximize the benefits of that direction (marketplace/banks in one direction...libraries/universities in the other).

Step 3: TRADE TRADE TRADE -- whichever route you take, you should trade. Either trade your newly-discovered tech for ones you had to bypass and/or cash/luxuries/resources to fuel your next research and overall empire. OR trade for others' techs and, hopefully, then turn around and trade that tech to someone else who needs it, getting one of their techs in the bargain (a 2fer).

Arathorn