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[BTS] Monarch Genghis Khan - My midgame is atrocious

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by reflec, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Hi all, starting another shadow game.

    I played a few games following the advise from the last one (focusing hard on food -> whipping and stop wasting worker turns) and it helped tremendously; I can get a massive lead up until around t170-200 when it falls apart. By that point I'm too far behind in tech, being unable to trade for any techs, ai tend to start getting free religion and I start losing my allies, ai starts getting emancipation and that only further disrupts my tech plans, and so on.
    I consistently have the most land by far, and I'm still getting so far behind by this point.

    Balanced map, standard size and speed.
    Random gave us Genghis Khan


    Kept restarting till random gave me aggressive since I think my wars are super ineffective and could use some help on that.
    I consistently wipe out 1 civ by ~t120 and I think that's worth it, but basically any war after that point I think ends up pretty poorly. I don't make enough progress fast enough and then economy gets crippled by war unhappiness.

    Imperialistic will be quite nice since I'll probably be going to war a lot
    Keshik looks pretty meh, I never go horseback riding early game
    Ger looks nice, lots of xp with our extra great generals

    Mongols start with Hunting + The wheel :yuck:

    Start:
    Spoiler :




    Moved my scout south onto the PH:
    Spoiler :



    Honestly not sure here, I'd hate to settle on a FP, but if I move to the PH then I lose that cow, plus I don't want to build capital right next to tundra. I also don't really want to farm those FP since I'll want cottages on them all. Maybe move onto the marble? Or maybe 1SE onto that grassland so I get all the FP for a nice Bureaucracy capital?



    I also downloaded BUG mod which was suggested, though I'm not aware of what it's capable of yet :crazyeye:
    Side note, is it possible to get the graphics from bat mod with bug? Like this
    Spoiler :
     

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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Most of the mid-game trouble stems from weak early game. Maybe poor diplomacy, too, though that shouldn't be a huge issue on monarch as you can run away with the game if you handle your empire well.

    In the Genghis game I think only moving to marble or to plains hill 2S make sense. I'd certainly go for the marble for the second extra :hammers: and the plains cow, which is a crazy good tile for an IMP leader. After worker, probably just settler at size 1 working the improved cow. 2nd city on the plains hill before T25? In this case, better not to make any reckless moves with the scout as you can't afford to lose it. :)
     
  3. Qactus

    Qactus Romani ite domum

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    Yes, you can add graphics independently. Those used in BAT are called BlueMarble I think.
    The best effort I know of (taste is obviously very subjective) was made by @vincentz for VIP mod and can be downloaded separately as well:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/detailed-terrain.22966/
     
  4. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Keshiks and even stock Horse Archers are very strong! You can conquer at least two nearby civs with those. With wars that come 80 turns in or later make sure to either use 2-move units (nothing better than Keshiks because they ignore terrain) and just overwhelm pockets of enemy resistance with quick strikes or go for a 1-move army that is at least half siege. The latter option is more effective but also less efficient... you'll need and will lose more units and the war will take longer. Either option is usually good though.

    As for Genghis he offers nothing economically so you gotta take advantage of the military aspect of it. With him it doesn't make sense to sit and build. Settle anywhere between 4 and 6 strong sites that have good food and at least one strategic resource of choice and then go smash skulls.
     
  5. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Downloaded some fancy graphics ;)


    T1-13
    Spoiler :

    Moved onto marble and settled next turn

    3 hammer capital + 2 food + FP :drool:
    AH takes 12 turns but worker takes 10 so building warrior for 2 turns then switching to worker, otherwise worker will be idle 2 turns



    Meet wilhelm's archer to the west...



    AH finishes and reveals some horse right outside of borders, which will expand in 22 turns, very conveient.
    Worker finished, planning to go to pig first but figured I'd ask here first.

    Probably going mining -> BW for slavery and chopping, then agriculture -> pottery for FP cottages. Idk it feels weird getting agriculture so late.



    There's some gold I could maybe get and you can see wilhelm is very close to me, probably want to take him out early. Also planning a city 4E of the rice for 3 FP + 3 wine commerce once I have monarchy


     
  6. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I'd just make a general comment to reflec based on his original post. AGG trait is very very far from the reason you are super ineffective at war. In fact it's generally considered one of the worst traits. For perspective, consider that Gandhi is a great warmonger.

    Very nice start for GK. On marble and pigs to boot. Not sure on size one settler. Pigs too strong not to improve first and grow to size 2 for pigs/cow setter. A spot 3 W of Krak looks good with some pigs share. 3S1E on PH also good for cottages and cottage sharing...think this is a spot sampsa mentioned..not sure

    Ag is not late if you don't need it.

    Note: You do start with the wheel so you could simply have roaded the pigs waiting for AH

    4E of rice does not look particularly special to me at all.

    (you can change the UI color with Blue Marble as well. There is a second tab in the install screen. Select your color - you can even customize the color - and press the activate button)

    Nice to see you installed BUG. Hopefully you installed BULL too. BUG greatly improves the UI and info screens....you will notice as you play. You can customize some things in options. Cntrl-X and Alt-X give you a color dotmap tool. You have GG and GP bars at the top. City info is enhanced. BULL has a nice feature of having workers stop on the last turn of forest chops so you don't have to manage it manually.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  7. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Yes of course, just thought AGG would force me to go to war so yall have more opportunities to see what I do wrong

    True, in last game I was told not to road but it was because there was already a river connecting it and I didn't notice that here

    Yup 3W will prob be 2nd city and on the PH my 3rd

    Not early game no, was planning it to be like my 8th city so not a big priority
     
  8. Chase_2_Rabbits

    Chase_2_Rabbits Warlord

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    Yep, improve the pigs first. As lymond noted, no need to delay the worker 2 turns when you've got the wheel - especially as the road on the pigs would save you an early worker turn by being able to move onto the cow and begin improving it on the same turn.

    Tech path is interesting. Do we need an early BW? We don't have much forest to chop. We have good natural production from a 3 hammer capitol and the plains cow. I'd be tempted to get mining next and improve the plains hill, giving us 10 hammers of production at size 3 to leverage our IMP settler bonus; but I might skip BW after that in favour of going for agriculture & pottery to get some early cottages up. AGG warriors & chariots should be able to cope with Monarch barbs.

    In terms of looking ahead: you can easily do a 2-city chariot rush on a non-protective AI at Monarch level. Still effective at Immortal in the right spot. It's not particularly educational, though. As you've got Keshiks & Gers, it would be more fun to do a 3 or 4 city horse archer rush. A well timed & executed HA rush can be effective on deity, so it's a good skill to learn.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    AGG is just AGG...it's not a reason for one to go to war. A very close Willie with Keshiks and nearby horsie, now that is a reason to go to war :D.
    Anyway, wars have purpose and traits have nothing to do with it.


    The key point to take from that advice is not to build useless roads. Every single worker turn matters. In this case, you simply forgot that Mongols start with the wheel, but these things should be part of the thought process you go through at turn 0. How will things time. You idea on timing AH to worker was not bad per se, and if no wheel - or ag start - that may make sense, but here you would have been best finish worker straight up and as Chase said that road would allow you to immediately start on the cows


    Maybe..there might be a better way to settle cities up there. Of no mind short term though.
     
  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Warrior/worker queue swap sheningan is actually a pretty significant mistake, delaying the cow for one turn (loss of 3:hammers: for 1:commerce:). Getting the worker out 2T earlier would mean there is a road on pigs already for free.

    I'd go for BW, but I don't think pottery is a bad choice either. This is REX heaven, you could try to have what 6 cities by T60. Just an obscenely strong start for an IMP leader. Rice-horse and plains hill-fps should be next cities.
     
  11. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    T13-28
    Spoiler :


    Improving pig, also wilhelm founds buddhism


    Plan: let karakorum grow to size 3, worker will finish cow pasture in 3 or 4 turns, working pig+cow+plains forest results in a 6 turn settler


    wilhelm has some nice land here


    My math checks out :thumbsup:
    (I switch from plain forest to FP a turn or 2 later bc the extra commerce lets us get BW 1 turn quicker)
    Sent warrior I built to wilhelm for hopefully an early worker steal


    Ok I'm definitely seeing that I should've built worker immediately; I'll need a road on pigs to connect a city 3W with karakorum. I'm sending worker to road the pig and 1E of pig while I wait for settler. If the pig was already roaded I might've been able to road to the horse and start improving it immediately after settling


    Meet mehmed W of wilhelm


    Meet julius to E of me, we're all so close :mischief:
    Settled 2nd city (also wasted 1 turn moving to rice bc I forgot I don't have agriculture :nono:)

    Wondering how to manage city tiles here, I was planning for karakorum to finish warrior and grow to size 4 in 2 turns, which lets me do a 2pop settler whip for 90:hammers:, but the timing with BW finishing in 5 turns makes it kinda weird. Do I try to grow slow and get another warrior out before BW finishes, and let 2nd city use the pig?

    3rd city spots? 3S2E seems good, but I'm always unsure how to whip around cities with FP cottages, since if I whip too much then I lose cottage tiles
     

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  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I think growing to 3 was unnecessary, I don't think you needed so many warriors yet. IMP settler is such a quick build here at size 2 with +2:hammers:cc. Now you seem to be building more warriors and growing, I'd just had gone more settlers/workers. With my two next cities I'd claim the floodplains.

    Yeah, don't whip away good tiles. Not a lot of :)-resources available so I'd be tempted to Oracle monarchy (after BW-pottery). Of course you can also attack Willem...

    When Karakorum goes for the next settler, take the pigs with the 2nd city to use the food.
     
  13. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    BW (and even mining) wasn't urgent here, settlers are built so fast that you could go pottery first.
    Whenever you have outstanding production early think about different techpaths.
    (BW = early rush basically on such maps with Axes or chariots. Commerce first = good for Keshiks)
     
  14. Chase_2_Rabbits

    Chase_2_Rabbits Warlord

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    I'm of the mind that REX heaven is having gems or gold in your capital to prop up rapid early expansion until you can develop a more sustainable economy. It's great to get cities up early with the associated snowballing benefits, but not if you crash your economy doing so.

    That's why I preferred an early pottery to BW here. Whether we're beelining Horseback Riding or REXing, we need commerce (and have a strong natural production start, reducing the need for early chops & whips).

    Why are we building another settler so quickly? Our 3rd city site 3S2E is decent, but claims no special resources. It will likely need one 7-turn FP farm for growth; beyond that, it works cottages. At present we can't build either. As unimproved cities go, a PH city working FPs is as good as it gets...but I'm not sure that it's optimal to build it ASAP.

    I guess we're building another settler because there's nothing else to build. It's all pointing towards Agriculture & Pottery being a better choice than BW tbh. It would be nice to finish the warrior, slow build a worker at size 4 and then slow build the settler. We'd still have 3 cities before 2000BC, and the worker would be underway planting a farm and cottages for the 3rd city to work.

    As played, meh. I'd finish the warrior and grow in 2 turns. If that means having to keep the pig for a turn before letting 2nd city have it, so be it. I can't be sure, but I think if we start slow building a settler without the pig in the capital, the timing for a settler whip should work if we immediately go into slavery when BW is in. Probably best to put a turn into a barracks before starting to be on the safe side. I can't remember what Monarch barbs are like, but there's no way I'd be taking such a casual approach to spawn-busting on an Immortal map with a lot of open land to the North and South. Whip overflow finishes a barracks and into a couple of warriors that can be promoted to cover or woodsman as necessary.

    Oh, and you should choose a target to put all your spy points on. Willem would usually be a good choice...but not if we're planning to rush him! Mehmed looks to have good land for teching.

    So, what's the medium-term plan? Rushing Willem with Horse Archers or REXing to claim land? It's going to start affecting our decisions soon...
     
  15. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    OK. Especially on a low level, just building new cities will work great. Of course it's great to have special tiles etc, but even river cities are not going to lose :commerce:. Of course we won't have 6 cities pre-pottery, just maybe 4 and we'll be there (at pottery). Agree though that it's better to go pottery first, but not a huge deal. This is not deity after all.

    Building at least two settlers very quickly is the best you can do and I can even shadow this if some people need some proof.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  16. Chase_2_Rabbits

    Chase_2_Rabbits Warlord

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    Spoiler :
    I played both openings. BW first & back to back settlers (6 cities by T55) was stronger than I thought, I'll give you that. Pottery play and a 4 city Keshik rush is quick though. A dozen Keshiks by 1000BC will see off Willem & Mehmed, and they have much better land to take than we can REX into peacefully; but there's still time to take that nice land with Kehsiks with your preferred opening, and the power of the earlier cities would probably snowball past my less expansive opening for a better win date.
     
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  17. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Barbs probably won't be a problem for a little longer and by that point I could make chariots if I need it

    I want to focus on war more so plan is to build 4/5 cities and start building an army

    T28-42
    Spoiler :

    Ok so plan is to let karakorum finish warrior + growing for 2 turns. Then I'll build a settler and then whip a 2nd settler once BW finishes.
    I'll then go for agriculture -> pottery -> horseback riding? Idk I never get horseback riding early since it's so expensive.


    Dont mind if I do








    Letting 2nd city use the pig, karakorum builds settler 1 turn faster while 2nd city grows 3 turns faster, I think it's better that 2nc city grows at least until I can farm the rice




    Pics got kinda messed up here, basically I just check if wilhelm has any strategic resources which he doesn't. BW finishes in a few turns and I adopt slavery when it finishes




    Peace with wilhelm which pushes my worker 1S1W of rice. I sent my warrior south which reveals some cow, I'm actually going to settle on the PH where my warrior is 3rd. My worker which just finished roading the horse moved onto the FP and will road it to connect the 3rd city. Sending the stolen worker down to start chopping 1N of cow, it will get to the cow but be unable to build pasture for 2 turns I believe so may as well start chopping.

    Also moving the stolen worker revealed some copper, 1N1W of copper for 4th city?




    Turfan founded, even though I could start on cows I'm going to chop a warrior here, just in case
    2nd settler was whipped, sending him 1N1W of copper, and with the OF I'm building a 1t barracks
    north worker is moving towards rice, can't work rice for 1 turn when it gets there so will probably start a road




    Ning founded
    karakorum building worker after 2nd settler and it's using the pigs.
    I think pottery first would've definitely been better, I have 4 cities that aren't doing much besides growing. I can't make graneries or keshik yet so do they just churn out more warriors?

    I want to focus more on war in this game and less on REX; normally I might start making some axes now or in a few turns or just keep growing until I get to construction. I don't really know what to do right now if the plan is keshiks

    Another question, I probably don't need this much military this early? I feel like with land maps like this, completely fogbusting isn't possible this early, so I have to make more military than normal.
     

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  18. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Just quickly glanced at the screenshots so don't know the finer details. However, I am pleased to see that you are learning the joys of tile sharing and city overlap. Krak and Besh simply have such nice synergy here. And Turfan can share some cottages with Krak.

    One problem I do see here - and not aware if this has been explained much to you yet - but you are running random slider. Get in the habit of running 0% or 100% research the moment you hit deficit research when you settle your first city. Do not run X% in between. Accumulate just enough gold to fund the next tech. (I or someone else can explain this more, if you wish, but I'll leave at that for now.)

    If the goal is taking to the Dutchies with Keshiks, I focus mainly on building up these 4 cities, getting some cottages going and heading to HBR. You could do Writing first and at least get some scientists running in Krak. On higher levels I might even bulb Maths, but that may not be necessary here.

    I'm not discouraging some further settling either but my priority would be keshiks. Conversely, you could just ignore that and focus on empire management, economy and expansion, which honestly really has its merits for the purpose of learning.
     
  19. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @Chase_2_Rabbits
    OK. Also keep in mind that when I commented on this being a great map for REXing (due to the capital and the land available), we didn't know about the horses. Of course taking out an AI is "better", but that wasn't my point. Also, if one wants to somehow "optimize" the play on this map, Keshiks are a massive overkill, but that is also beside the point. edit: Well, unless you plan to conquer the whole map with them...

    My point was that going for a swift 3-4 connected cities especially on this level is strong - they are :commerce:-neutral while winning at least 3:food:1:hammers: pt to start with. Especially if you settle the right ones. The horse/rice-spot (without agri) wouldn't be one of them for me (well, unless going to use the horse obv). The floodplain area is strong, but perhaps requires an understanding of the game mechanics beyond the mantras "don't work unimproved tiles" and "every city must have a food resource". Unimproved flood plains are not bad at all, and can be farmed. I never understood why people are so reluctant to invest 2 extra wT to farm fps. The same people often have no qualms investing 5wT into nearly useless mines...

    Personally I think learning how to handle the economy (how I hate that word) is the most important skill to learn for players who are interested in getting better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  20. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @reflec The thing lymond mentioned about the slider is very important. Learn the habit of always going 0%/100%-:science:slider to often win 1:science: per turn in the early game. I only now noticed the settings - no :espionage: and no vassals. I think the game is much better with these on, even if you mostly ignore them. The no :espionage: setting in particular messes up the :culture:-system so not recommended.

    I'm happy to see 4 cities already, that's a fast expansion. Although I need to say playing like this is also a bit demanding for "the student", as none of your cities have any real :commerce: as already pointed out. I'd have gone for the floodplain area with my 4th. I think the way you've played so far makes sense only if you take out Willem with axes. What I mean is - that copper-spot is not bringing your empire anything else besides the ability to build axes. You do have quite many warriors that are not very useful. No reason to scout or fog bust so far from your empire in the N. Get that chariot out of your territory to farm some XP.

    So what I'd do now is to connect the copper and copper city, get some axes out (you probably won't need many even), get Amsterdam.
     

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