[BTS] Monarch Mansa Musa(Mali) Shadow Game on Pangea
- Thread starter HPR1860
- Start date
As a German I decided to go for the peaceful route(its not "Zeitenwende"... yet.)
But useful to know the more aggressive options too.
Turn 43
1. Finished writing and will start ALPH now.
2. Did some more scouting and fighting animals for Woodsman 2 on both warriors. Nice for better defending and movment in woods to the N and W.
Heres what they found:
Will do a little bit more scouting(i. e. around the fur and down S to the coast for possible seafood) then fog bust.
3. Founded Cow City and have a general question:
In this city I figured that I want to grow to at least 2 because of the flood plain with cottage(worker already cottaging, its a tile that will be worked constantly because its shared with wine city too).
Even though its not exactly food rich(nothing is on this map so far honestly) but theres the wet cows and the shared fp with cottages so I figured that there will be whipping so a granary will be good (in contrast to the capital where I will rarely whip so I delay a granary for now).
Does that make sense?
What would be the build order for wine city or horse city?
I generally have problems to decide what to build in my additional cities and would like to know the criteria for it.
4. Whipping
The turn I whip which tiles should I work in this city(highest food, commerce, production?)?
Or does it depend on the city it shares tiles with?
Thanks a lot guys!
But useful to know the more aggressive options too.
Turn 43
1. Finished writing and will start ALPH now.
2. Did some more scouting and fighting animals for Woodsman 2 on both warriors. Nice for better defending and movment in woods to the N and W.
Heres what they found:
Spoiler N and W scouting :
Will do a little bit more scouting(i. e. around the fur and down S to the coast for possible seafood) then fog bust.
3. Founded Cow City and have a general question:
Spoiler Cow City :
In this city I figured that I want to grow to at least 2 because of the flood plain with cottage(worker already cottaging, its a tile that will be worked constantly because its shared with wine city too).
Even though its not exactly food rich(nothing is on this map so far honestly) but theres the wet cows and the shared fp with cottages so I figured that there will be whipping so a granary will be good (in contrast to the capital where I will rarely whip so I delay a granary for now).
Does that make sense?
What would be the build order for wine city or horse city?
I generally have problems to decide what to build in my additional cities and would like to know the criteria for it.
4. Whipping
The turn I whip which tiles should I work in this city(highest food, commerce, production?)?
Or does it depend on the city it shares tiles with?
Looks like a good spot for 4th city indeed.
Thats why I will chop the tile 1N of capital and then cottage it for sharing with horse city.
Thanks a lot guys!
2. If you're getting horses from the NE, then no need to settle NW horses, and you can eventually put a city on that river near the NW warrior to get the two floodplains in first ring. As for the silver and fur, even further down the road, it might be worth dropping a 1-pop city between the two just to connect the resources, not expecting anything else from that city.
3. and 4. All those 3 cities around your capital will have more or less the same job: grow, work cottages (and part-time the gold for the horse city), and whip basic infrastructure (granary first) and units as needed. The priority is then always food followed by commerce. In particular, the tundra horses are good to get the resource, but the tundra tile itself is not very valuable. Tile sharing provides flexibility for the whipping schedule, just needs to be staggered so they don't all lose tiles at the same time. In those cities, I would whip the granary as soon as possible, even as a 1-pop whip if you get 30 hammers in it before you grow to size 4. After that they can start slowly building a library.
Capital will slow build granary and as you said it can be delayed now... basically the capital remains the settler/worker factory until your other cities have a granary and the pop to whip those units.
Most cities need granaries eventually, but here's a typical example of a city that would not need a granary (not on this map): let's say you have dry plains with a wheat, a copper and a stone. Great for producing workers/settlers at size 3, but no use for further growth or infrastructure.
In terms of when to stop city growth for settlers and workers, a good perspective I learned from user @CarpoolKaraoke here (I think) about the early game is to think of how fast you are acquiring and working good tiles. So when it seems that cities are growing faster than you can improve them, find a city that's in a good position to whip a worker. When you are running out of good tiles or your workers are running out of things to do, find a city that can put 40 prod into a settler and 2-pop whip it.
There are exceptions to this natural expansion rhythm, like when you want to grab an important resource or city spot before a neighboring AI, but it still works well usually.
3. and 4. All those 3 cities around your capital will have more or less the same job: grow, work cottages (and part-time the gold for the horse city), and whip basic infrastructure (granary first) and units as needed. The priority is then always food followed by commerce. In particular, the tundra horses are good to get the resource, but the tundra tile itself is not very valuable. Tile sharing provides flexibility for the whipping schedule, just needs to be staggered so they don't all lose tiles at the same time. In those cities, I would whip the granary as soon as possible, even as a 1-pop whip if you get 30 hammers in it before you grow to size 4. After that they can start slowly building a library.
Capital will slow build granary and as you said it can be delayed now... basically the capital remains the settler/worker factory until your other cities have a granary and the pop to whip those units.
Most cities need granaries eventually, but here's a typical example of a city that would not need a granary (not on this map): let's say you have dry plains with a wheat, a copper and a stone. Great for producing workers/settlers at size 3, but no use for further growth or infrastructure.
In terms of when to stop city growth for settlers and workers, a good perspective I learned from user @CarpoolKaraoke here (I think) about the early game is to think of how fast you are acquiring and working good tiles. So when it seems that cities are growing faster than you can improve them, find a city that's in a good position to whip a worker. When you are running out of good tiles or your workers are running out of things to do, find a city that can put 40 prod into a settler and 2-pop whip it.
There are exceptions to this natural expansion rhythm, like when you want to grab an important resource or city spot before a neighboring AI, but it still works well usually.
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Thanks, very helpful!
Turn 59
1. Finished ALPH now tech trading can start: unfortunately Ive only met two civs so far(my guess is that the rest is W of Hannibal).
Not a lot of trading options especially because Ragnar doesnt like me...
Will try to get fishing and hunting from Hannibal at least.
What to reasearch next?
Currency would be very helpful I guess with the economy and many cities coming up.
2. Scouting N and W:
First try of a dot map...
Guess the clams up N make a decent city that can feed itself while providing the fur. Would need a road connection first so maybe later on.
Horse silver city can grab both resources and work some river tiles together with fp city.
W cow has the cow in first ring and will eventually grab deer and share some river tiles too.
Theres some spots in the S too.
Definitely a city or two around spices, rice, ele, horse. Needs more scouting.
S of my border with rice, copper, dye.
City to the E with stone, copper, rice and cottage sharing.
Whats the best sequence for the cities?
Esp. as theres diplomacy involved now...
3. Diplomacy:
Ragnar founded Uppsala right after I founded wine city so there could be border tension brewing.
I reacted to it by a) giving him open borders so he likes me better in a while(and foreign trade routes as hes connected), b) linking up the copper at the captial to build some axeman for military strength and c) building a library first in wine city to grab tiles/withstand cultural pressure.
Is that okay?
Would founding the "S of my border with rice, copper, dye" city to his W increase tensions?
Turn 59
1. Finished ALPH now tech trading can start: unfortunately Ive only met two civs so far(my guess is that the rest is W of Hannibal).
Not a lot of trading options especially because Ragnar doesnt like me...
Spoiler Trading :
Will try to get fishing and hunting from Hannibal at least.
What to reasearch next?
Currency would be very helpful I guess with the economy and many cities coming up.
2. Scouting N and W:
Spoiler N and W with Hannibal and dot map :
First try of a dot map...
Guess the clams up N make a decent city that can feed itself while providing the fur. Would need a road connection first so maybe later on.
Horse silver city can grab both resources and work some river tiles together with fp city.
W cow has the cow in first ring and will eventually grab deer and share some river tiles too.
Theres some spots in the S too.
Spoiler S dotmap :
Definitely a city or two around spices, rice, ele, horse. Needs more scouting.
S of my border with rice, copper, dye.
City to the E with stone, copper, rice and cottage sharing.
Whats the best sequence for the cities?
Esp. as theres diplomacy involved now...
3. Diplomacy:
Ragnar founded Uppsala right after I founded wine city so there could be border tension brewing.
I reacted to it by a) giving him open borders so he likes me better in a while(and foreign trade routes as hes connected), b) linking up the copper at the captial to build some axeman for military strength and c) building a library first in wine city to grab tiles/withstand cultural pressure.
Is that okay?
Would founding the "S of my border with rice, copper, dye" city to his W increase tensions?
Diplomacy first:
- No border tension until your borders actually expand into each other. That won't happen anytime soon, since Ragnar has not researched Mysticism (typical military-focused AI) and the city doesn't have religion. Wine City should still build a granary before library.
- Nevertheless Ragnar is one of the more notoriously aggressive AIs so you should take precautions. Notice this suspicious extra hammer on his tile south of wine city, that's an iron (that and the fact he's mining it is also giving it away, I suppose...). You can get two axemen quickly by: putting no more than 4
into an axeman in Cow City, 2-pop whipping it at size 4, then putting the overflow into another axeman. With two axemen in Wine City, some hammers invested in an axeman there you can whip if in an emergency, and maybe also a pre-chopped forest you can cut in an emergency as well, you should be safe from a surprise war (also likely you'll see it coming if he builds up units in Uppsala).
- I would just give Ragnar Writing and Agriculture, it might boost relations a bit and you can still trade Alpha for something useful (Iron Working?) if you ever get him to pleased. (What's your relations +/- with him right now?)
- Do you have any resource trades available with Ragnar? This can help with relations as well in the long-term.
- Sure you can get fishing and hunting from Hannibal. Generally we don't trade for cheap techs, but you haven't met many AIs now and you won't get much better in the future if you're already so much ahead of them at this difficulty level. Hunting gives you happiness for the elephants; it stops you from building warriors, but that's maybe less an issue now, plus a scout or two could help you meet more AIs for beneficial trades.
Empire development:
- I still like the floodplains site NW most, followed by the rice/dye spot post-iron working. Nothing else is very inspiring, as I said before I wouldn't settle anything in the tundra besides a throwaway city to claim one fur and silver. Peninsula city could be considered by the time your borders grab the rice, but that's pretty far still.
- Right now there is still a lot to develop in your core cities. You could use a worker to chop another worker in the capital, but then capital needs to grow more than it needs a library. Growth there is very slow now, it shouldn't work that resourceless mine unless building a worker/settler and not growing anyway.
Tech:
- Currency won't do much until you meet more AIs. For the peaceful route my priority here would probably be heading towards Monarchy. Given we're running out of quality city spots and the threat posed by Ragnar, pivoting towards Construction is also an option.
- No border tension until your borders actually expand into each other. That won't happen anytime soon, since Ragnar has not researched Mysticism (typical military-focused AI) and the city doesn't have religion. Wine City should still build a granary before library.
- Nevertheless Ragnar is one of the more notoriously aggressive AIs so you should take precautions. Notice this suspicious extra hammer on his tile south of wine city, that's an iron (that and the fact he's mining it is also giving it away, I suppose...). You can get two axemen quickly by: putting no more than 4
into an axeman in Cow City, 2-pop whipping it at size 4, then putting the overflow into another axeman. With two axemen in Wine City, some hammers invested in an axeman there you can whip if in an emergency, and maybe also a pre-chopped forest you can cut in an emergency as well, you should be safe from a surprise war (also likely you'll see it coming if he builds up units in Uppsala).- I would just give Ragnar Writing and Agriculture, it might boost relations a bit and you can still trade Alpha for something useful (Iron Working?) if you ever get him to pleased. (What's your relations +/- with him right now?)
- Do you have any resource trades available with Ragnar? This can help with relations as well in the long-term.
- Sure you can get fishing and hunting from Hannibal. Generally we don't trade for cheap techs, but you haven't met many AIs now and you won't get much better in the future if you're already so much ahead of them at this difficulty level. Hunting gives you happiness for the elephants; it stops you from building warriors, but that's maybe less an issue now, plus a scout or two could help you meet more AIs for beneficial trades.
Empire development:
- I still like the floodplains site NW most, followed by the rice/dye spot post-iron working. Nothing else is very inspiring, as I said before I wouldn't settle anything in the tundra besides a throwaway city to claim one fur and silver. Peninsula city could be considered by the time your borders grab the rice, but that's pretty far still.
- Right now there is still a lot to develop in your core cities. You could use a worker to chop another worker in the capital, but then capital needs to grow more than it needs a library. Growth there is very slow now, it shouldn't work that resourceless mine unless building a worker/settler and not growing anyway.
Tech:
- Currency won't do much until you meet more AIs. For the peaceful route my priority here would probably be heading towards Monarchy. Given we're running out of quality city spots and the threat posed by Ragnar, pivoting towards Construction is also an option.
-2 when I met him.
Gifted him WRI and AGR and have a trade for 1 of his 3 clams for my pig. Had open borders before.
Now its -1.
Why is that?
Dont want to be annoying but can you please explain why you wouldnt settle of the clam double furs city please?
Scouting towards the S for more city spots.
I might start a preemptive strike before this crazy Viking attacks! Also I`ll like that 3 clams Ragnar has...
So working towards construction.
Cheap techs: Each AI leader has a limit of how many techs they see you receive from them or other AIs, before they refuse trading any more techs (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/). Thus it's worth researching a cheap tech to trade for a more expensive one (e.g. Sailing instead of Fishing). That matters more at difficulty levels where the AI is actually keeping up with you techwise. At this level, eventually most of the benefit of tech trading for you will be trading your old techs to the AI for some amount of gold (post-Currency).
Crab/double fur city: That city is so far from your capital that it probably will need to be size 3 before it actually pays for its addition to empire maintenance (it's not just the maintenance listed for that city in the city screen, each additional city adds some small amount of maintenance to all other cities in the empire, so maintenance costs increase quadratically). But it has low food, no good production for the initial fishing boat or an eventual lighthouse, not to mention the difficulty of expanding borders.
Wartime: If going for Construction, the empire should shift from land expansion to growing population and preparing for war. If you're growing into unhappinness you can whip the library, then run scientists if at happy cap. You can slow build Axemen otherwise when library is done in a city. You can save chops for after Mathematics, unless they are needed to open up a cottage tile for a city that can work it. Spare worker turns can go to pre-chop forests or to set up road between your cities to facilitate unit movement later. Maybe you find you need additional workers to prep for army buildup post Construction.
If you get a chance to trade Math for Iron Working, it could be good to have some Swordsmen. Otherwise Axemen are probably enough. Going for elephants (HBR) after Construction is an option, but it may be overkill if you just want to go against Ragnar and revert to economic play after.
Crab/double fur city: That city is so far from your capital that it probably will need to be size 3 before it actually pays for its addition to empire maintenance (it's not just the maintenance listed for that city in the city screen, each additional city adds some small amount of maintenance to all other cities in the empire, so maintenance costs increase quadratically). But it has low food, no good production for the initial fishing boat or an eventual lighthouse, not to mention the difficulty of expanding borders.
Wartime: If going for Construction, the empire should shift from land expansion to growing population and preparing for war. If you're growing into unhappinness you can whip the library, then run scientists if at happy cap. You can slow build Axemen otherwise when library is done in a city. You can save chops for after Mathematics, unless they are needed to open up a cottage tile for a city that can work it. Spare worker turns can go to pre-chop forests or to set up road between your cities to facilitate unit movement later. Maybe you find you need additional workers to prep for army buildup post Construction.
If you get a chance to trade Math for Iron Working, it could be good to have some Swordsmen. Otherwise Axemen are probably enough. Going for elephants (HBR) after Construction is an option, but it may be overkill if you just want to go against Ragnar and revert to economic play after.
Thanks I think I got it!
So if I trade techs with Hannibal and Ragnar before I meet the other civs it wont count towards the other civs tech trade limit?
That link is a fantastic resource btw!
Ragnar is nearly as war crazy as Monty it seems and I remember that lunatic even more than a decade later... I really is just a preemptive war!
I think I´ll found the floodplain site and maybe the rice and dye city(if I can get iron working) and then gear up for war as you described.
Or is it better to go to war first and then found those cities(theres not a lot of competition for those spots)?
How about baracks to prepare for war?
Or just go for more units instead?
Thanks a lot for the great advice!
Lol right forgot about barracks. So ideally you want libraries and barracks in your core cities + build your melee units (axe/sword, the latter only if you get IW in a trade) before finishing construction, which is why you may not fit in any more settlers. And it wouldn't hurt if Ragnar settled the rice / dye and started clearing that jungle for you...
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Thanks!
What about skirmishers if I pick up Archery from a trade?
They are cheaper than axe/sword and a few of them could be usefull as defensive units in my stack so axe/sword can fully commit to city raider promotions?
After the war they can act as anti barb/fog busters(barbs are getting too strong for my warriors now).
What about skirmishers if I pick up Archery from a trade?
They are cheaper than axe/sword and a few of them could be usefull as defensive units in my stack so axe/sword can fully commit to city raider promotions?
After the war they can act as anti barb/fog busters(barbs are getting too strong for my warriors now).
Turn 78
1. Finished construction.
Traded for Fishing, Hunting, Archery, Mysticism and Iron Working with Hannibal before meeting my third civ(Zulus).
Hannibal has Sailing and Poly.
What should I research next?
HBR would open up war elephants.
2. Built several axes and 2 skirmishers(fit in perfectly before cats).
Now starting to build cats.
Promotions: City raiders for axes and cats, drill for skirmishers(extra first strikes)?
3. Scouting
Started to scout the Viking empire and there are two barb cities in the SW on rice and one next to the vikings.
Should I go for the barbs first(not a big build up of Viking army and +1 relations with Ragnar)?
Wanted to settle between rice and ele anyways and the barb city is directly on the rice which should be fine also?
Will check out the second barb city while scouting Ragnar.
1. Finished construction.
Traded for Fishing, Hunting, Archery, Mysticism and Iron Working with Hannibal before meeting my third civ(Zulus).
Hannibal has Sailing and Poly.
What should I research next?
HBR would open up war elephants.
2. Built several axes and 2 skirmishers(fit in perfectly before cats).
Now starting to build cats.
Promotions: City raiders for axes and cats, drill for skirmishers(extra first strikes)?
3. Scouting
Started to scout the Viking empire and there are two barb cities in the SW on rice and one next to the vikings.
Spoiler Viking and barbs :
Should I go for the barbs first(not a big build up of Viking army and +1 relations with Ragnar)?
Wanted to settle between rice and ele anyways and the barb city is directly on the rice which should be fine also?
Will check out the second barb city while scouting Ragnar.
HBR only if you plan to take the war beyond Ragnar (e.g. Shaka? would need to see how far his cities are and how his tech is... elephants + catapults start being ineffective when AIs get Feudalism - longbows). Otherwise Currency is an option, towards Code of Laws - Civil Service for more economic development.
Hannibal will not plot at pleased and is more generous with tech trading that most aggressive AIs, so keeping him as a friend is good.
Promotions you suggest are good. Maybe a few axes with Combat I to get Medic or Shock (for anti-melee defense) down the line.
Barb cities should wait after Ragnar. They likely are defended by 2-3 archers at this difficulty level and won't attack you, so your leftover forces can go for them.
Hannibal will not plot at pleased and is more generous with tech trading that most aggressive AIs, so keeping him as a friend is good.
Promotions you suggest are good. Maybe a few axes with Combat I to get Medic or Shock (for anti-melee defense) down the line.
Barb cities should wait after Ragnar. They likely are defended by 2-3 archers at this difficulty level and won't attack you, so your leftover forces can go for them.
Turn 98
1. Got CoL and 1 turn off CS.
Traded for a few techs with Hannibal(hes a nice dude) including Mono and Monarchy.
What next? Maybe Calendar?
I think I can tradde for Metal Casting.
2. Switched to Confuzianism after CL and organized religion.
Will go for Hereditary rule when possible.
Met the other civs and there are some nasty ones(Monty and Shaka!).
Ragnar declared war on me, I destroyed his first stack and took his first city later.
Going for his capital now where most of his units are(see picture).
His capital has 3 sea food!
Great person farm?
3. Speaking of which... Got my first great scientist and built an academy in my capital.
The right move?
Now I got my fist great general and remember that making a super medic on a unit that never has to defend was considered optimal back then.
I have a worrior with Woodsman 3 already which could be a candidate.
4. Scouted the S.
Will keep the two barb cities and settle a few more myself(unfortunately Ragnar didnt develop the jungle city for me).
Dotmap looks okay?
In what order should I settle them?
Theres still the floodplain city and weak silver and fur tundra city towards the NW also.
1. Got CoL and 1 turn off CS.
Traded for a few techs with Hannibal(hes a nice dude
) including Mono and Monarchy.What next? Maybe Calendar?
I think I can tradde for Metal Casting.
2. Switched to Confuzianism after CL and organized religion.
Will go for Hereditary rule when possible.
Met the other civs and there are some nasty ones(Monty and Shaka!).
Ragnar declared war on me, I destroyed his first stack and took his first city later.
Going for his capital now where most of his units are(see picture).
Spoiler Vikings :
His capital has 3 sea food!
Great person farm?
3. Speaking of which... Got my first great scientist and built an academy in my capital.
The right move?
Now I got my fist great general and remember that making a super medic on a unit that never has to defend was considered optimal back then.
I have a worrior with Woodsman 3 already which could be a candidate.
4. Scouted the S.
Will keep the two barb cities and settle a few more myself(unfortunately Ragnar didnt develop the jungle city for me).
Spoiler South Dotmap :
Dotmap looks okay?
In what order should I settle them?
Theres still the floodplain city and weak silver and fur tundra city towards the NW also.
Turn 98
1. Got CoL and 1 turn off CS.
Traded for a few techs with Hannibal(hes a nice dude
What next? Maybe Calendar?
I think I can tradde for Metal Casting.
Currency could be good if you can't trade for it. Do you already have sailing for trade routes along coast? Trading for MC would be good if you're going towards Knights.
Switching to a religion no one follows except soon to be dead Ragnar is a bad idea for diplomacy.
It depends. For a lot of strategies (especially Cuirassier rush), using the Great Scientist for Philosophy (pacifism, on the way to liberalism) is a better play. That said, if you plan to run over the map with Knights, you don't really need more Great Scientists. Just switch to Bureaucracy, run as many cottages as possible in capital (and elsewhere of course) and go for Guilds.
You are SPI and have Code of Laws now, which is nice since you can switch to Caste System when you don't need to whip for a few turns, use artist specialists to expand borders when needed.
Also, outside your capital, merchant specialists might be better than scientists now if you can run them with Caste. The idea is that if there is nothing good to bulb (Great Scientists would research techs along Paper-Education line), you would rather get a Great Merchant to generate a bunch of gold to keep your slider at 100% research. Also, the merchants themselves generate some small gold to help run the slider at 100%.
I would still develop the nearest spots first, so floodplains then rice/dye. Note that you can't have cities 2 tiles apart even in diagonal (see your two spots on the SW peninsula).
You can settle liberally any spot with good food after, after Currency you probably won't have money problems. Just make sure to keep developing cottages in your core.
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Sorry forgot to mention that I got currency already.
Sailing from a trade too.
I see thanks.
Will go for guilds with bureaucracy and caste system.
floydmcw
Prince
Through T88 ...
Spoiler So these neighbors ... :
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Went for Knights and really went on a roll.
Later got Cuirassiers and in the end there was only China and Zulus left.
I conquered the Apostolic Palace from Monty so a quick diplomatic win was possible also.
But with that big of a technology and military advantage it the game was won one way or another.
Thanks so much for all the contributors to this thread!
Learned a lot and will move up a level.
I just saw that theres a Mansa Musa Nobles Club going on so might stay with him. Hes a strong leader and I got some experience with him now.
Later got Cuirassiers and in the end there was only China and Zulus left.
I conquered the Apostolic Palace from Monty so a quick diplomatic win was possible also.
But with that big of a technology and military advantage it the game was won one way or another.
Thanks so much for all the contributors to this thread!
Learned a lot and will move up a level.
I just saw that theres a Mansa Musa Nobles Club going on so might stay with him. Hes a strong leader and I got some experience with him now.
