[BTS] Monarch Shadow Game: You, Me, and Hannibal vs. The Turtle

Fabled

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Another positive for animal husbandry is revealing horses. We're charismatic - a war trait - and have a close neighbor, so getting an early horseback riding and going to war might be on the table here.
 

Henry.K

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There's an upload file button to the bottom right of the text field next to "Post Reply". (I suspected you were on a Mac)

If you are uploading to an existing post, choice edit>more options - the button is just below the text field.

Apologies, I misspoke; I mean to say that I don't know where to find the saves on this Mac.
These forums are intuitive enough to use, MacOS on the other hand... :confused:
 

Henry.K

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Animal Husbandry is done, met Chaka Khan, and did some southerly scouting:

Spoiler :
005 - Scouting.png


Also, the corn will be farmed 1 turn from now. The plains hill NW of my warrior looks good for a second settle - thoughts? After the warrior is done in three turns, should I grab another or get a worker going? If I were playing alone, I'd probably go warrior to give the capitol time to get to 2 or 3 population.


As for technology...

Spoiler :
006 - Technology Choice.png


Should we go straight to Bronze Working to start the whippin' and choppin'? :egypt:
 
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lymond

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Apologies, I misspoke; I mean to say that I don't know where to find the saves on this Mac.
These forums are intuitive enough to use, MacOS on the other hand... :confused:

@Fine_Distinction If you are in the building, would you please kindly help our young Mac using friend with save file locations? ..thanks

1NW (of warrior as you mention) or 1W of cows. I think I like 1W of cows for some tile sharing...I think here is an FP in fog there too. And rice can be shared by a good city south of there later.

Can't tell if you have horses, but I'd go BW regardless.
 
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Henry.K

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Okay, went Bronze Working and did some scouting.
Found horses but they're a bit far:

Spoiler :
007 - Scouting.png


Perhaps settle on the grassland hill two tiles north of the horses and whip a monument for quick borders?


Could use some advice on what to build:

Spoiler :
008 - Build Decision.png


My capitol just hit three population. In four turns the mine on the gold will be finished. I'm working the lake tile to take a turn off Bronze Working. Since I can't chop or whip a settler at the moment, I'd probably wait three turns till the city hits four population. In four turns when the mine finishes, I'd get ready to chop a settler when Bronze Working finishes in five turns.

What say you folks?
I could see grabbing a second worker now too, but I'm not sure which is the stronger play.


When Bronze Working hits, when should I use chops to speed up production vs. whips?
I've read up on the subject, but it's still unclear to me.
If the city has decent food, would I prioritize whips?
 
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jnebbe

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Definitely get that 2nd city out before the 2nd worker. See if you can work the forested plains hill for a turn or 2 so that it grows to size 4 and finishes the warrior on the same turn. Chop a couple times to get settler out. I also like 1W of the cow. Be sure to switch into slavery after your settler finishes but before he actually settles so that only your capital is affected by anarchy. I forget to do this all the time.
After that get pottery and start cottaging all those river tiles
 

Gressulf

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lymond: I turned off espionage because I can't say I'm that crazy about the mechanics.

Although I do not turn Espionage off, I played a game yesterday, Fractal Map on Immortal. I was together with Zara, one guy was isolated and the others were grouped together on a different island. I was KILLING IT... Absolutely killing it on the tech, and the AI was left behind in the dust. However Zara had his points on me the whole game and he stole techs from me; Biology, Electricity, Communism, Physichs, etc etc and he only had to spend 1500 - 2000 points on each, while I had to spend like 4000 points on techs like Gunpowder, Nationalism!!! It was absolutely ridiculous! Even when I did the Counter Espionage Missions increasing his cost by 200%, he was stealing techs left and right.
 

Fippy

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Agree with jnebbe, so much perfect FIN land that you want a strong 2nd city out first.
So i would settle with Rice & Cows in first ring, can use a stronger city first more than tile sharing here imo.

Jumbos are such an important tile, the corner with them and horsies would justify a far away utility city later.
Also can have wet rice with LH lakes.
 

krikav

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With CHA and a golden curse, this capital doesn't need to share any tiles really.

I see benefits with settlement SW of cows since it gets rice+cows in first ring.
But I see benefits with settlement 1W of cows too since a city there enables a city 1N of the silk once the rice is improved.

A city 2N of the horse I think is an bad idea. 1N of elephants looks better, spiders alot of resources.

Whippings... Maybe whip once or twice before granary if things line up nicely but I don't see this as a whip oriented capital.
It's only at +6 food with the 3 power tiles, and once the plains-spices (cottaged) comes into the picture it will be at +4.
 

civac

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Second city with rice and cow is far stronger than with cow only. There are no relevant trade-offs, 1W of cow is just a mistake.

Also capital has +8 food and can we whipped just fine. It depends on the exact micro what's better. Since there are only two strong tiles I suspect whipping 4->2 is more efficient, You typically get your stuff faster at least with whips. Caveat is that you acquire enough commerce that you reach Pottery in time.

Short term micro could be something like chop work, double chop + 2pop whip a settler with overflow into another worker.
 

Henry.K

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Although I do not turn Espionage off, I played a game yesterday, Fractal Map on Immortal. I was together with Zara, one guy was isolated and the others were grouped together on a different island. I was KILLING IT... Absolutely killing it on the tech, and the AI was left behind in the dust. However Zara had his points on me the whole game and he stole techs from me; Biology, Electricity, Communism, Physichs, etc etc and he only had to spend 1500 - 2000 points on each, while I had to spend like 4000 points on techs like Gunpowder, Nationalism!!! It was absolutely ridiculous! Even when I did the Counter Espionage Missions increasing his cost by 200%, he was stealing techs left and right.

Sounds exactly like my experience :cringe:


Definitely get that 2nd city out before the 2nd worker. See if you can work the forested plains hill for a turn or 2 so that it grows to size 4 and finishes the warrior on the same turn. Chop a couple times to get settler out. I also like 1W of the cow. Be sure to switch into slavery after your settler finishes but before he actually settles so that only your capital is affected by anarchy. I forget to do this all the time.
After that get pottery and start cottaging all those river tiles

Agree with jnebbe, so much perfect FIN land that you want a strong 2nd city out first.
So i would settle with Rice & Cows in first ring, can use a stronger city first more than tile sharing here imo.

Jumbos are such an important tile, the corner with them and horsies would justify a far away utility city later.
Also can have wet rice with LH lakes.

With CHA and a golden curse, this capital doesn't need to share any tiles really.

I see benefits with settlement SW of cows since it gets rice+cows in first ring.
But I see benefits with settlement 1W of cows too since a city there enables a city 1N of the silk once the rice is improved.

A city 2N of the horse I think is an bad idea. 1N of elephants looks better, spiders alot of resources.

Second city with rice and cow is far stronger than with cow only. There are no relevant trade-offs, 1W of cow is just a mistake.

Okay, settler is done and it's time to decide.
I did more scouting and have some info to share:

Spoiler :
009 - Settle Decision.png


The highlighted location on the plains hill between the cow and rice is where everyone - including myself - seem to be leaning. However, if you look SE, it seems that Saladin's second city will be contesting the locale which Fippy and krikav pointed out. Taking it now also gets me the horse for my unique Numidian Cavalry, which may come in handy once barbarian archers show up in the near future. What do we think?


Also, just to make everyone aware, I found a potential spot to the NE:

Spoiler :
010 - Potential Location.png



krikav said:
Whippings... Maybe whip once or twice before granary if things line up nicely but I don't see this as a whip oriented capital.
It's only at +6 food with the 3 power tiles, and once the plains-spices (cottaged) comes into the picture it will be at +4.

civac said:
Also capital has +8 food and can we whipped just fine. It depends on the exact micro what's better. Since there are only two strong tiles I suspect whipping 4->2 is more efficient, You typically get your stuff faster at least with whips. Caveat is that you acquire enough commerce that you reach Pottery in time.

Short term micro could be something like chop work, double chop + 2pop whip a settler with overflow into another worker.

Here's what things look like in my capitol:

Spoiler :
011 - City Status.png


I have yet to switch my civics, so Pottery is three turns away instead of two, and the worker four turns away instead of three. To get the settler out I chopped the forests out from two of the three spices.


Could you please provide me some direction on:
- What to research after Pottery
- What to build after the worker
- What tiles to improve next
- What/when to chop vs. whip
 

krikav

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1N of elephants still looks nice, but you need to get some culture there if you hope to keep the elephants. Saladins madrassas are no joke.



You want to road the spice now before you settle second city, so they will be connected.
As it is now, your capital isn't connected to the river.
After making that road, the worker should go to the cow to pasture it.
The second worker should probably go to the rice.
This avoids lost worker turns while in transit best I think, but maybe finishing rice faster with both workers to grow faster and accept lost worker turns is better. Hard to tell w/o calculating.

You should not have chopped the plains-spice south of capital as it wasn't riverside, that 1F2H1C tile would have been better to keep for a while.


Writing after pottery likely.
Pottery might be premature, workers are not ready to cottage.
Perhaps chop a third worker with both workers after they finish rice/cow.

I would probably build a few more warriors to feel safe. Your warriors are very far away, leaving fogged tiles right around capital is dangerous.
 

lymond

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Coupla pointers on scouting. Scout the general radius around your cap first. Then place warriors in spawnbusting positions near spots you are going to settle. No need at this point to send units too far away. Keep them close. (edit: this becomes ever so important as you move to the higher difficulties)

Spawnbusting means protecting areas from barb spawn. A single unit will prevent barb spawn in a 5X5 tile area around the tile he stands.


Anyway, copper area to N/NE needs a bit more exploring before deciding. Not sure on sharing food with this particular cap so hopefully there is something up there, but the copper is important. The rice/cow city though is priority for now since it is so strong.

edit: yep..as krik said...road on spice tile there will connect it to new city via the river

(edit again: I tell you though that my 1W of cow spot looks a bit more intriguing now, as you could plop city there now, and a city 2N of cows..with copper city eventually taking cows for food and the other the rice. Plus FPs all over place...but I'd probably not do it on higher levels cause I'd want the copper online faster)
 
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Heathcliff

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One south of copper looks ok too and share corn, just to get some axes out for barbs defence.
 

krikav

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Diplo wise... Saladin is nice and doesn't plot at pleased. He will love you instantly if you adopt his religion, and he is easy to keep friendly for the rest of the game too, due to religion and his favourite civic theocracy (I tend to end up in theocracy alot... :) ).
Thats why it's usually OK to settle in his face.
Jumping in right next to AIs with cities like those, is usually asking for trouble though, so contingency plans are needed.

Also, a possible helper city (city#5 or somewhere there in prio) could land NW of the gold.
Juggling gold back and forth between capital & helper is often as important as juggling food tiles.
It's a superb tile to work while you are just teching and running in burocracy.
It's a awful tile to work while you want to let your capital grow, which is alost always. :)

A helper there could hold the gold, borrow the sheep to grow every now and then, it could help mature 3 grassland cottages for the capital, and it would eventually end it's days as a granary+lighthouse+barracks whipping/drafting city once capital is hogging all those tiles for itself later in the game.
 

krikav

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One south of copper looks ok too and share corn, just to get some axes out for barbs defence.

Getting copper would be suuuper sweet. But apart from that benefit of a settlement there, it's a very very bleak city.
Capital would be extremly reluctant to ever share that corn outside of the very early game, so it would essentailly be a food-less city.



And @lymond Wouldn't a city SW of the cows enable that city 2N of cow equally well as a city W of cows?
I mean, both of the alternatives W and SW of cows gain cows in first ring, and right after that happens, a third city can be settled 2N of cows,

It's a neat idea, and that would be a nice city eventually. But my god that would be slow metal... Myst->Monument->10turns.



(And during all these speculations, there is likely 3x fur and 2 deers hiding right next to the copper. ) :D
 

Henry.K

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lymond: Good call, I'll pull the warriors back and build the road like kirikav suggested.

krikav: Yeah, I figured settling in Saladin's face wouldn't be too suicidal a move because of his temperament. As you said, I don't need pottery at the moment so I'm thinking about switching to Mysticism, settling north of the ivory, then whipping a monument. After the second worker is done I'll chop out a quick settler and found the city between the cow & rice ASAP. Is that a much weaker play than going for the cow & rice city first?

Since copper looks so inconvenient, how should I be thinking about military? I assume we'll see barbarian archers soon...
- Taking the city north of the ivory gets me horses, but Horseback Riding for Numidian Cavalry is a pretty expensive tech.
- Perhaps just research archery and get a few of those out to replace my aging warriors?
- I could go for Iron Working and hope there's some nearby.

All of those options will delay getting Writing of course; Is that a huge no-no?
 
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krikav

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You can delay writing for ages. You have gooooold!

I don't think that it's worth delaying cow&rice. Thats a really strong spot.
If you go for ivory, thats city #3 or #4.

Military I would up the number of warriors rather than the other alternatives. Going for archery might be needed but you are not there.
Again, gold helps you provide a large warrior army.

Make sure copper is scouted before next settler is out. There can be other stuff there that increases the appeal of a city there.
 

Henry.K

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You can delay writing for ages. You have gooooold!

I don't think that it's worth delaying cow&rice. Thats a really strong spot.
If you go for ivory, thats city #3 or #4.

Military I would up the number of warriors rather than the other alternatives. Going for archery might be needed but you are not there.
Again, gold helps you provide a large warrior army.

Make sure copper is scouted before next settler is out. There can be other stuff there that increases the appeal of a city there.

Cow & rice it is!
What should I be building in the new city?
I'd typically build a granary until I can whip.

I'll get a third worker too.
Would you recommend putting a cottage on the grassland spice?
At what point should I think about connecting the gold?

Since I don't need Mysticism, I'll finish up Pottery then.
After that's done, Writing I assume.

And while we're on the subject of military...
Should I be concerned with barracks?
 
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