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Monarch Student II - Climbing from Prince (Joao II)

@singlemalt

As far as I know it's just the standard Firaxis map generator on fractal. I used to play continents - or custom continents - random number for a little more variety since the 2 continent thing was too predictable. Lately I've gone for fractal so it's not so predictable. However...

(some early map info)

Spoiler :

Um. Yeah - I'm starting to realise that this game might be a little bit of the "crucible of death". I'm going for round 2 today and now that Hannibal's deeded I don't see any way out of having to go for Brennus as soon as feasible - there just isn't enough good land to expand onto otherwise. I may change my mind as I ger into it, but I'll be curious to see if anyone comes up with a successful strategy that doesn't involve a lot of early war.

Monarch Student 1 ended up this way a little bit too. Both Ai Shiz and I used game generated maps without monkeying around with them, as opposed to some of the other public games that are a little more "crafted". I'd be interested to know what TMIT, r_rolo, Bleys or whoever usually find they like to do to the maps to balance things out a little - or how much they find they like to alter the map to get what they consider a fun game.

On the other hand, doing it like this does give us an opportunity to play a "real" map to test ourselves on. It's said that TMIT doesn't like to give us early copper to discourage the axe rush in Noble's Club, so I thought that this game would provide something a little different that way.

In my own opinion so far, in this game either Hannibal or Brennus should be axe rushed - possibly the remaining one sword/cat/elephanted. I went with Hannibal first and I think that's the right choice so far, but I'll be more than happy to be proved wrong and shown that it can be done without doing one or other of them or even either of them!

I was fully intending to play a peaceful REX game using Joao's cheap settlers and workers, but the worm has turned!
 
Monarch/Normal, No Random Events

Everything else standard. This isn't like the 1st map at all. I'll explain in the spoilers.

To 1 AD

Spoiler :
Portugal starts with fishing/mining. I moved 1E because I wanted my capitol to be able to take advantage of the obscene production afforded by all those grass hills. I realize I sacrificed a levee for this but I wanted the power early game. I can make levee cities later. This turned out to be a good idea, too.

Techs started AG to improve the super corn, then masonry, then I started mining hills after the corn (worker 1st). Goal was great wall and I got it:

2280Gwall0000.jpg


Now after scouting a bit we find Hannibal north, Brennus whoring religions and whatnot south. NOTE TO NEWER PLAYERS: neither of these leaders attack at pleased! Don't forget this.

My goal was to wall brennus away from the jungle land to the northwest. After all the worker techs in the first row I ACTUALLY beelined alphabet. I wanted to trade for IW asap. That's right, I got alpha before BW, and it worked out fine. The map wasn't 100% ducky horsey on me though:

Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg


Ouch. Good thing I'd traded for archery already. A quick chop and hill work gets me:

925defenseheld0000.jpg


650BCpostwarempire0000.jpg


He took peace after this and I resumed settling. The three of us settled on hindu and I also switched into OR. This was tremendous because it's brennus' favorite civic and allows me to skip monuments and just use religion for border pops (which is actually FASTER than monuments). I'm not CHA so it's not like I need them.

REX REX REX.

1ADnorth0000.jpg


1ADwestblock0000.jpg


1ADTech0000.jpg


I'm not terribly concerned about tech. I just successfully walled off an utterly ridiculous amount of land. Enough to win the game by itself. Carthage is in WHEOOHRN although I'm pleased with him. At this point I was thinking he decided to do it while cautious and made some extra axe garrison.


To 1270 AD

Spoiler :


Turns out Hannibal was at war with sully, not prepping a round 2 vs me.

OK with the land blocked the priority is to settle it. First up in tech was monarchy which I partial researched to trade math for. I went calendar early in this one even though I don't usually do that, because with the bananas, three (!) happiness resources, and all the power commerce tiles unlocked I wanted it ASAP. It might still have been better to tech something else and trade for it, but I was falling behind. After that I grabbed CoL, got to aesthetics in the 400 AD range and was still able to trade it (got metal casting after partial research and currency). After that I just kept settling cities to fill in the continent. The block in the first segment was so effective it was as if I rushed at least 1 civ. However it slowed me down to settle all those cities. For example:

1210ADIgetbeattolib0000.jpg


I lose liberalism.

1270Alsolosecircumnavigation0000.jpg


and circumnavigation.

But a little before the latter I got FP up finally

1250ADhugelift0000.jpg


Which was a huge lift. Basically losing all those races is fine because I already have the cities needed to shut the door on the AI. I'm the largest civ in the world without an offensive war! I notice at the end of this segment that I made a mistake. I didn't realize the hindu bloc had met other AIs that hated them, so I got a lot of worst enemy demerit and was worst enemy to both zara ang washington for trading with worst enemies...logical. At the 1270 AD stopping point I was considering how best to handle this gaffe. Stables and knights from 2 very strong hammer cities was a start. No AI had rifling yet so massed knights could easily cut down stacks if I had enough.


To 1876 - UN Victory

Spoiler :
Noticing that my bloc was behind in tech and sucking I decided to turncoat. I was spamming knights to defend against the others but changed my mind. By simply going FR (and all the other modern techs like FS/US/merc then SP) I made the other hindus worst enemies instead of myself, and nobody was WHEOOHRN immediately after I did that. I detoured every so slightly after democracy to pick up MT and upgrade my knights. Brennus dropped to cautious while I was able to keep hannibal at pleased. Perfect. Nobody in the world would help Brennus vs me:

1645DoWBrennus0000.jpg


BACK STAB baby! How's that knife feel sticking out of your spinal cord Brennus? Probably not too bad underneath! Hahaha.

It's not like I was running away in tech yet.

1645Tech0000.jpg


Brennus got rifles but not until he was down to 3 cities and had lost his capitol. He's gone.

1760ADBrennusgone0000.jpg


Stupid Hannibal got rifles while I was hitting brennus, but cavalry still do OK in large #'s and supported by spies.

1802DoWHannibal0000.jpg


Zara settled one city on my continent between two of mine. That failed him as I built a few culture buildings and then since it was a hammer city built culture and flipped it. This meant that as of 1840 I finally had 100% control of my continent by killing off hannibal.

1840ContinentControlHannibaldead000.jpg


Now after doing this (or more like while fighting brennus) I realized that most of the worst enemy trade anger was gone with Zara. Zara was #2 in land and pop by a decent shot and had Hammy for a vassal (voluntary). The others were still mad at my trade practices. This is why I wrote a guide to the UN though. I shot to mass media first, and traded/gifted it to hammy and washington (sully was too far back). I didn't care who got it honestly. As long as it wasn't Zara (which due to favorite civic, resources, fair trade, and worst enemy trade anger wearing off was at friendly) Zara would vote me to win the game.

Not surprising, then:

1876UNwin0000.jpg


Hammy built it. What WAS surprising is that Washington voted for me at pleased. Ugly hidden modifiers rearing their head again. I must have had +1 or +2 to get to pleased +9 where AIs will vote you to win. I only needed Zara + more pop growth (possibly sushi) but w/e. I could have waited for other modifiers to kick in on washington or gone back ot HR too if need be.

stats0000.jpg


score0000.jpg


Looks much, much better than my showing in the first one of this series, though I won that one it was pretty ugly.

View attachment 199579

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Oh, on some things to clarify when I personally host maps:

First of all, if anything in NC I will actually ADD copper if I think the start is too hard. That's rare though. The reason is because I pick map settings, then go into the world builder and repeatedly roll the map until I see something I like. Maybe there's a choke point. Maybe there's some land that nobody will get for a long time. I know how to (it's easy) swap starting positions etc too so if someone's start looks interesting I might make that the player's start. In 2 of the NC's I've hosted I put gems or gold nearby (usually not in capitol BFC). In one of them I made a minor nation for fun, but when I do that I have to play-test it to make sure it functions as a balanced map.

Regardless, the easiest way to get a potentially interesting map is to just reroll it a ton in worldbuilder. Sometimes the layouts surprise you and are good even though you'd not have thought of them beforehand. I keep about 50% of the rolls I settle on just as they are...depends on my mood.

Also, about that "proven wrong" thing in the spoiler.......;).
 
I got a win, UN diplo 1880ishAD, Getting to be a habit of mine:)
Spoiler :
No screens, I may edit some in later, I was worried about hitting Brennus, well obviously I hit him. On the first DoW I captured 4 cities, including Bibracete (buddist shrine, SoZ). When ask for peace price, he gives me Aesthetics (eejit, cos I needed that to activate the SoZ. I DoW as soon as I recover, and take all cities putting cultural pressure on Bibracete. Sue for peace again. Then attack a few hundred years later again. This time I had the strength to see Brennus off my island. With two cities left on the continent and three minor on a minor continent he vassalises to Sully. I didn't want to vassalise him as it would had irreparably hurt relations with China, America and Ethiopia (all worst enemies of Bren). Sully does nothing to actually hurt me, bar pillage some sea resources. He did however gift Bren some techs (steel and a few others), which caused me to lose the only three non-siege units in the last war. As soon as sully allowed it I bought peace for some gold.

With all this land (20+ cities) I decided to tech to space, as I was researching super fast (2 lucrative shrines courtesy of Bren helped). A great spy was used for a golden age to facilitate a switch to free religion, emancipation, and state property. State property got me a fair few big techs (chemistry, Democracy, steel, steam power) with the help of the GA's gold, and a few invested research turns. Hammy built the UN, Zara was friendly, and Washington had just asked me to switch to Free Speech (I obliged). I had enough pop to vote myself into the UN, and by the time The first set of resolution came along Washington was friendly. Dip Vic by a large margin. Funny that when I was playing noble and prince I never got a Diplo vic. Must be that I pay more attention to diplo now that I have started on monarch.
 
To 505 AD Monarch/Epic

Spoiler :

Didn't end up fighting Brennus after all - expanded across the fjord to the west. And now thinking that actually war is not inevitable or even a good idea because of all the land to the west as TMIT observed there is a lot of land there - so it's continue to expand for a while I guess. It took a while to get the economy up to speed. (in fact it's still going on - that will be the main factor limiting my expansion I think. I'm cottaging and spreading Buddhims like crazy

Other key events. Got a GPriest from the oracle and used it to build the Budd shrine... that helped. Spreading budd to Brennus's cities. Bren and Sulieman are both Budd. Other than that it's pretty much chop/whip libraries, temples, monastaries. Made a couple of small trades, but then fell behind for a while due to expansion.

Southern part of empire - 8 cities in total - 3 of which you can't see up north where Hannibal was...

monstu505ad0000.jpg



@TMIT - Thanks for the info and yes you're right now that I've explored a lot more - this isn't really like the 1st game as it plays out. We'll have to disable the diplo victory option on the next one :)
 
played to 1205ad
Spoiler :

after wiping away carthaginian general i started to peacefully settle new land and catch up techwise.
soon met hamurab, confu (suly+me jewish, zara buddhist)
after killin hann and wasting all his money i whipped the last round of courthouses and switches to CS.
while expanding into wild west of jungle i understood that jungle is no more - instead, this candy was there:
View attachment 199584
barbs have been doing great job all the time i warred - they leveled jungle, built infrastructure, buildings and razed a suly's poorly defended city when he showed up there.
i teched mostly beeline to liberalism, because ai's were pretty close to it, and after researching the next tech in race i traded the previous one to backfill.
i won the race in 1175, tightly followed by zara. not much use, though -i only was able to pick nationalism for free.
had a nice time capturing two barb candies and settling around.
suly built swedagon and switched to FR (bastard!) i had to go to "no state rel"
because jewish paganism was only dip.penalties. yes yes i was in paganism all the game, and i traded for mono only well after AD.
now anarchy just passed from switching to FR-FS. FPalace in Bulgar (in the midst of former jungle should bring maintenance down, and Prpress in 4 turns will increade income)
i am goign to culturally devour a colony which suly has dropped near my borders and just continue settling. if not the whole continent, but its larger part is to me, myself and i.
looks great for either un victory or a riflemen assault/ we shall see, however.
world, techs, new land view, relations, cities and save follow.
View attachment 199587
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as for map - i would suggest tectonics, it is my favourite. you never know what hidden and still it seems to know that mountains occur in ranges, and continents are separated by vast bodies of whater called oceans :)
 
@ Dj
Spoiler :
While it's true that Joao is good for rexing, you still gotta play the map. What makes him good at rexing is the extra HAMMERS he gets for settlers and workers. Well, your surrounding land is hammer poor, both for chopping and for mines. Even whipping isn't so friendly in the cap. So you have to go a different direction, at least until you settle a hammer rich city. Then you can go into rex mode.
 
will try this soon after I finish
PYL , NC (haven't even started the game yet)
My own GK game and the IU game on Monarch :(
 
@ Dj
Spoiler :
While it's true that Joao is good for rexing, you still gotta play the map. What makes him good at rexing is the extra HAMMERS he gets for settlers and workers. Well, your surrounding land is hammer poor, both for chopping and for mines. Even whipping isn't so friendly in the cap. So you have to go a different direction, at least until you settle a hammer rich city. Then you can go into rex mode.

Spoiler :
1 E is pretty hammer rich...
 
Monarch/Epic to 470 BC

Spoiler :


Gee, this is cool - I've never played Joao before. With expansive and imperialistic, sounds like a great situation for peaceful rexing - fast settlers and workers, a decent city in Lisbon once I hit calendar, this'll work out great...until:

Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg


8 turns into the game, I meet Hannibal. He and I go way back - I've always had a hard time when he's near me - that stupid financial trait, and then he gets those experienced numidian cavalry up and running, forcing me to build more spears (which I hate). I vividly remember losing a nice game with Cathy where I had rexed and he invaded. He also appears to have decent cottage land with the river around Carthage, which means he'll have plenty of early game cash. He's pretty close, and he's going to have elephants with Carthage, meaning he'll be a pain at Construction, so I tech BW right after agriculture, and...

Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg


Yes, I can hook up copper almost instantly. Peaceful rex my butt, Hannibal's going to build my workers and settlers for me. I am not very good at the early rush at these higher levels, as I never seem to get units out fast enough to take on the enemy. I whip and whip, but just never seem to do it quite right. My first mistake was probably building that settler you see in the above pic, but I wanted a congregation city up near Hannibal and to claim the rice (I think it's rice - doing this from memory). I really need to learn to build nothing but axes - the settler can wait. Oh well, this is how I learn these things - the rest of this isn't going to look all that pretty, but I just figured after how close he is, and after seeing the production power of Carthage (especially given Lisbon is lacking in production), that the only choice is to rush.

While I'm hooking up copper and starting to build axemen, I pop a scout from hut and send him and a warrior south and west and meet...

Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg


Brennus seems much closer, but doesn't concern me too much, as I rarely have much trouble with him. Not much experience with Suleiman, but not overly concerned if I can secure two capitals. It also appears I can close them off with a well placed settler and backfill (although I still haven't done that at 470 BC for reasons I'll explain).

Then the bad luck starts to hit. Two slave revolts, my warrior loses fortified on a hill to lions, and my scout does the same in a forest. The revolts severely stunted my axe production, as both cities lost 2 pop. Stupid random events - I figure that cost me 2 axes at least (2 uses of the whip, plus lost production and time). So my stack is only 9 axes (8 at the edge, and 1 right behind them) when I invade Carthage, and because I lost time, Hannibal had just hooked up his copper.

Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg


Turn 106 on epic - that feels way late for an early rush - I like to DOW about 10 or so turns earlier with more units, so this could be a real crapshoot. The settler and the revolts slowed me down. So Carthage had 1 axe, 2 archers, and he whipped a spear just before I got there. 9 on 4 is NOT good odds for me. I figure it's 50-50 I take the city. I win on 28% odds against the axe with my second axe, which is absolutely huge, so even though I later lose with 94% odds, my 8th axe does this:

Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg


I can't wait for the production power of this city once I get it online. 5 mines, two solid food sources. Look closely above too - Hannibal had an axe fortified outside the city on a hill - weird - might have saved Carthage if it was in the city. Here's where it again got frustrating. I had a weakened axe and a full strength axe in Carthage. He attacks with that fortified axe, and crushes me, and was at 4.1 out of 5 strength afterward. I moved my 3 other axes in, so no way he takes the city, but I wanted to attack him right after he attacked me, and he still had the 25% fortify bonus??? I figured since he attacked me with that axe, he'd lose that bonus. So I wait, he kills another axe with his super axe, and finally I eliminate that lone ranger axe.

Hannibal had managed to found what appears to be two other cities, but without his copper, should be in trouble. I go to take the southernmost one, Hadra-whatever, and the random number generator strikes. First, a quick sidebar. I was producing axe reinforcements from Lisbon, but when I finished teching AH, saw horses close to the southeast, right near the fish. I had to claim that site. So I decided not to block off Brennus with a southwest city, and raced out a settler to claim horses and fish. It hasn't bitten me yet, but I'm worried Brennus could get a settler there while I'm up finishing off Hannibal. That'll be where I start off the next round.

Anyway, back to Hannibal. I have 8 axes get to Hadra-whatever, and he has two archers, but...I also see a chariot coming - yikes - he has horses and the ultimate axe counter. I get to 90+ percent odds after the first two axes suicided, and proceed to go 2-3 with the next 5 battles, all at 92% plus. So I'm left with two full strength axes in Hadra-whatever, and he has a chariot. He kills one without losing any HP, but I use my other to kill him (at 69% odds), and move my other axes into Hadra-whatever. Decide to keep it because it has food and looks like a decent, if not great, city site. On monarch, I can get away with keeping it, but I think I'd probably be better off razing and backfilling later at higher levels.

That's where I cut off. He still has another city it appears, and it looks like I'll need a spear or two. So that's for the next round - finishing off Hannibal, blocking Brennus, and then strengthening the economy. I seem to be teching ok - I teched writing, dropped to 0% research to build up gold, quickly whipped two libraries, and am starting to research at 100% with the libraries and scientists to catch up. However, I figure I'm still going to need a force to deal with Hannibal, so I may have to declare peace and rebuild. I've weakened him to the point where he'll no longer be a factor in the game though, so I could just ignore him for now - we'll see. The rush took way too long though, because I'm not a great early rusher, and those events really stunted my rush. I like to complete an early rush before 500 BC, not have it still dragging like this one is. But it's been successful because Carthage will be a production force for me all game long. The empire:

Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg


I haven't done a really good job at scouting because I lost a scout and two warriors to barb animals, but I can do that the next round. Also almost have alphabet and can backfill if I need to. Barbs are coming regularly from the south, but they're mainly a nuisance now, because I have axes and a chariot to counter. Overall, I think I'm in ok shape - there's some nice backfill land for later, but if I hadn't built that settler before the axe rush, think I could be much better off now. That's my main learning point from this game so far.

Anyone reading this and playing epic - how fast do you target the DOW in an early rush? I always try to DOW by around turn 90-95 (and with more than 9 units - stupid revolts) - would be interested in others thoughts. Obviously depends on the map - if it's lacking hills, later may be ok.

 
Monarch/Epic to 1200 AD

Spoiler :

Largely uneventful round. Missed the GLib (and every other wonder), but pretty much figured on that since I was late teching Lit while economy was coming back... which it has now and I'm full on for the race to Liberalism. Empire looks much as before. I've passed on expanding any more for the moment, although I'm going to put a "fill-in" city on my turf to take my to 9. Might even be able to sneak a tenth one in somewhere... I'm back to teching like crazy and will pop a GP in a few turns - hoping for a Scientist for Education. Have traded some techs around.

I'm running counterespionage on Brennus every 15 turns. He's gotten just huge. I think I'm aiming for a diplo win here too. Not enough production for space. I'm not ruling out limited military action - but that would be for political reasons most likely Brennus and Suli are 1-2 with me 3rd. It's been a while since I played a peace-nik type of game, so I'm not sure how far I can push it before someone attacks me. Brennus and Suli are both pleased Buddhists for the moment, so I'll try and keep them that way.
 
TMIT
Spoiler :
Interesting approach, good job. I had nearly a 1000 years of war, at a tech disadvantage to Bren, reclaiming what should have been mine from Bren:D When the war was over I was extremely backward, teching PP, and the most backward civs didn't have RP (which offered the first trade oppurtunity since currency). They say land is power, damn right. My techrate exploded at the end of the war. This is the second game at monarch where the UN interrupted my attempt at the space race by offering an easier win:)
 
TMIT
Spoiler :
Interesting approach, good job. I had nearly a 1000 years of war, at a tech disadvantage to Bren, reclaiming what should have been mine from Bren:D When the war was over I was extremely backward, teching PP, and the most backward civs didn't have RP (which offered the first trade oppurtunity since currency). They say land is power, damn right. My techrate exploded at the end of the war. This is the second game at monarch where the UN interrupted my attempt at the space race by offering an easier win:)

It's interesting to see two very different opening approaches wind up with identical VC's and very similar finish dates :crazyeye:. I did what I did because I know all the AI tendencies (and when I don't, I have a 2nd computer with the spreadsheet up so I can check). Looks like an either/or choice on this map/diff tho.
 
@ Dj
Spoiler :
While it's true that Joao is good for rexing, you still gotta play the map. What makes him good at rexing is the extra HAMMERS he gets for settlers and workers. Well, your surrounding land is hammer poor, both for chopping and for mines. Even whipping isn't so friendly in the cap. So you have to go a different direction, at least until you settle a hammer rich city. Then you can go into rex mode.

Thank you for that. Appreciate the tip and I didn't know that's where his strength lies.

TMIT said:
Spoiler :

1 E is pretty hammer rich...

Spoiler :

Yes it is, and that was a move I didn't even consider until I saw that in your victory. Nice. I was only looking at the resources (dye to west) and couldn't resist the noob urge of settling in place to not lose the turn. I do see that you placed the city to the south in the same place that I did (one north of the south coast) which I thought was a big mistake of mine. Can you exponund on that placement decision if you have the time?

I think I was the only one who settled Lisbon in place.

Thanks!
 
'Tis interesting alright. I'm finally getting to grips with war on monarch. I may have warred exceptionally long in this, but I had no other choice.
 
Thank you for that. Appreciate the tip and I didn't know that's where his strength lies.



Spoiler :

Yes it is, and that was a move I didn't even consider until I saw that in your victory. Nice. I was only looking at the resources (dye to west) and couldn't resist the noob urge of settling in place to not lose the turn. I do see that you placed the city to the south in the same place that I did (one north of the south coast) which I thought was a big mistake of mine. Can you exponund on that placement decision if you have the time?

I think I was the only one who settled Lisbon in place.

Thanks!

Spoiler :
I'm not known for thinking things through carefully. That said, I saw all the grassland hills, mulled it over (the loss of a levee deep into the game), then decided I wanted the early production. Dye and banana are not spectacular yields pre-calendar, just good ones. I figured I could grab that stuff with another city and use 1E for massive production. The final reason I chose 1E is that I didn't lose a turn moving over, and the amount of hills with an irrigated corn was just ridiculous!!!

Keep in mind too that I'm one of the few (perhaps the only) player(s) that rushed the Gwall. That decision also affected my settling location.
 
Spoiler :

i'm a bit confused to see you all rushed hannibal first, not brennus.
he s boxed in a peninsula once you drop your second city (or maybe even boxed when lisbon's borders pop twice). and brenny has all that good western land at his disposal.
I saw TMIT just blocked him. That's great (an unusual) tactics, but still, wouldn't rush be easier?
 
nanomage
Spoiler :
A rush is an oppurtunity cost. Bren is too far away, while Hanni is about 10 tiles. His Cap is excellent to build your army to kill Brenn anyway.
 
nanomage:

Spoiler :


I had the same thought as single malt as well. I played to 500 BC without looking at what anyone else had done. 8 turns in, I met Hannibal - hadn't scouted the land enough to know what the entire lay of the land looked like, and knew that he's a historical pain in my side if he gets up and running...plus Carthage looked like such a power production site it was a great complement to Lisbon lacking production.

By the time I met Brennus, I was already getting my axes ready and building roads to Hannibal, so Brennus would have been a tough "early" rush. Not to mention I lost my scout AND initial warrior to stupid barb animals - that was devastating because I couldn't see how nice the land was over by Brennus until I had already attacked Hannibal. I'm still hoping to block as much as I can from Brennus, but I bet he and I are going to have a turf war to the west at this point.



This is actually why I love playing these games, because I learn so much from them. After seeing TMIT's approach (and granted, he appeared to have better luck scouting the land than I did with the two units I lost to barb animals), I really learned a different perspective and maybe a different approach the next time one of these is hosted. It's what makes these games so valuable in terms of improving.

This is a great way to pick up tips and techniques too - this is the first time I teched to writing, lowered the slider to 0% while building libraries, and then raised to 100% after the libraries were built, to maximize the bang for the buck on research. A small micromanagement, but if it saves 2 turns of research in the end, that's huge.
 
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