Monarch Student XVIII - Gilgamesh

[Tempesta13]

Yes, i believe irrigation will spread through the city.

As for vultures - don't know if i've ever played Gilg before but they seem like better candidates than axes for a rush as they have a higher power. Any thoughts on this? Seems like keeping the target off their own copper is still important as they still have equal odds vs axemen (same as axe vs axe) with the differences to melee bonus. Might be better off vs protective AI archers though.

 

[Crusher1]

Never played giggly before! Vultures are a much better candidate . If you have copper anywhere remotely close your decision is already made for you - conquer the guy closest to you - to do otherwise would be silly.

Pre Iron the best UUs imo are: Quechua is number 1 (earlier + cheaper), Immortal is number 2 (faster + cheap), and Vulture is number 3, albeit, tied with WCs (a walking swordman+)

 

[michmbk]

!?!!> Wha?????????????????????????????????????????????

I'm actually somewhat of a creative junky when I play offline games . That and Org ^^. Matter of fact, now that I think about it, the leaders I usually use offline are:

Cathy, Zara, Asoka, Pericles, Fredrick, Giglamesh, Napolean, Sury.

I was more referring to PRO, as I like CRE as well, just not as much as a few other traits (i.e., FIN, ORG, SPI or CHA). So it's probably a middle of the pack trait for me, and PRO on the lower end of the trait spectrum. I'm getting a little better at the wall overflow trick though to help make PRO a bit more palatable.

A 400 beaker capital by 1000 AD in a non-OCC would definitely be impressive. With bureau, cottages, academy and gold, you might be able to hit it. You should have a library, University, great library, and if you've really done well, oxford or observatory or both. Might need to go pottery first to get those cottages online earlier though.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

This game looks like a lot of fun...will fire it up tonight.

As for where the series is headed, I'm all for making emperor students now. Noble's Club got me to Monarch, and MS got me to emperor (except in those damn LHC, I'm still only comfortable at monarch there). So now lets see if emperor student can get me to immortal!

 

[Crusher1]

Anyways, really looking forward to the game, I love Giggy. I don't know if 400 is doable - I'll have to mess around in WB on another random game with him and see what I have to do - I'm thinking off the top of my head I won't be able to do much better than 325-350, and thats with the TOA.

Why do you value CHA over CRE btw?

 

[michmbk]

The +2 in early game happy cap is really useful to me - sometimes means I don't even bother with monarchy for a long, long time, and means 2 additional tiles worked for each city before having to worry about happiness, which can be a critical early game advantage IMO.

Plus, I tend to favor war, so those heavily promoted units really add up. Having the ability to get 3 promos right off the bat with little difficulty is pretty amazing. It's a notch below the other three I mentioned, and a notch above CRE IMO, and since some of the top games on my hall of fame include guys like Nappy and Hannibal, I guess I leverage it reasonably well.

I'm home now, so on to some civ!

 

[Tempesta13]

Looks like a fun game - tried it at immortal but didn't make it too far... I THOUGHT i was playing pretty well but lost my first settler to an animal. Wolf came out of fog, warrior was next to settler ready to meet up at city #2 site. So obviously that slowed me down a lot - tried to keep playing but it just wasn't going to work. Now i have to restart knowing the land unfortunately. Thanks a lot wolf. I love 2 movement barbs.

 

[Crusher1]

@M

Spoiler :

I see =D. I think you'll find as you play more Immortal games that Monarchy is almost always available for trade very quick, so by the time you do Asthetics thru Drama or CoL you already have it (around 400-200 BC). Since I am assuming whipping will be done for infrastructure maybe only the first 4-5 cities (maybe) will benefit from the +2 - depends on how much your whipping.

I guess I like CRE because I don't need to whip monuments which automatically nets the person 10 turns of not working a tile when compared to a CRE leader who will be working 2 tiles. Some important early luxury resources need a border pop as well so I add 2 more turns to the picture as a whole, lol. Then I take some randomly generated number such as 7 average turns needed to grow to 2 population for the whip. I get that number, lol, like this - an average city takes between 8-11 turns to grow w/out working an improvement so I just say 9. With one food improvement it will take a city 4-6 turns to grow to size 2, lol. How many times does a person actually have a worker ready, improvement done? So I round up to 7!

If you're still following me, yet laughing I come to this conclusion. W/out being creative it will take someone 17 extra turns to work the same tile/s. You then subtract that from 5 (the time required for a CRE) and we get 12 turns lost in comparison. If you have 9 cities by 1 AD that will be close to 110 lost turns. That equates to about 300+ production or 300+ commerce. Still with me?

CRE also saves the turns at a point in time where every single commerce and production counts the most - early. CRE also gets me a lot of faster buildings and quicker research and quicker academies. An academy 4-5 turns earlier can easily be 100 beakers, lol.

Of course lets not forget how important popping borders on higher levels can be, lol. Yea, lot's of random rambling - I'm bored ^^. Of course, the perfect answer would be:

100% of the time I always have a worker accompany every single settler and I always CHOP the monument out! Yes, there you have it, the secret! Chopping a monument is always better than whipping one. But then you still deal with an average chop time of about 7 turns + the 2 turn random resource or tile not in the BFC, rounded up to 10 - 5 (CRE) is still 5X10 (cities 1AD) = 100C to 200P, lol - but CRE still gets the other stuff!

Edit: That means that Sury as CRE/EXP saves over 250+ turns from the combination of his traits! 100+ from CRE and 50+ from quicker workers and 100+ from granaries!

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I'm w/ Crusher, I like Cre, but mostly because I like to really aggressively settle right in my neighbor's face. I usually win the border war thanks to CRE. Stonehenge won't accomplish this as it simply gives each city 1 culture.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Long segment, immortal/epic, 10 AD - 1685 AD:

Spoiler :

Tech rate in this game has been TERRIBLE. I've had to self-research everything I needed. Not a single decent trading partner, and we was all confu.

Round starts with a couple marble wonders:

Spoiler :

Mesa Verde:

And Uruk:

Philo bulb:

There was a thread a while ago with people debating over trade/bribe refusal and the likes. Well, this is the answer when an AI is getting owned but the winning AI doesn't talk to him. So yes, refusal to talk exists between AIs as well:

Mao declared vs Bull at some point, captured a city and, well, captured a city. Protective cow is protective, after all.

Justi entered wheoohrn and I was his worst enemy. So:

This seems really slow on Immortal but, as said above, no trades slow everyone down. Lib was done around 1000AD, but I've chosen something on the way to steel:

Forgot the screen, but I declared on Mao in the early 1500s with 15ish cannons and a bunch of muskets/maces/pikes. Killed his stacks in my borders first and then beelined his capital:

Sitting Bull declared as well on Mao but didn't capture anything. And Mao is gone:

Empire:

Spoiler :

Techs:

Diplo:

I think I'll declare on Sitting Bull right away. Power ratio is 1.8 and he's still running around with medieval junk. Nobody likes him, so no risk of war bribes.

Still to meet Isabella and an alarmingly big ottoman leader.

War stats. Lost a single cannon and those 9 catapults on the first stack to cut maintenance.

 

[Tempesta13]

Immortal/Normal to 1 AD

Spoiler :

Settle in place and go pottery first which is quite different from the norm. I figure since i start with ag for the corn i'll have mining before i need that gold anyway. I want to work corn and cottage before the gold so i can grow faster. Got BW next.

As i posted earlier my 1st settler got eaten by a wolf so this is my 2nd attempt (was only about 15 minutes of playing) i had already seen a bit of the land but i don't think it changed anything - tried to play the same way up to that point. Other than losing my first settler again anyway. Settle the copper first but this time no crazy wolves out of the fog. This looks like a good production city.

Next goes the cow/banana/blocker city.

Here's where it gets hairy. Sitting Bull also had a settler in this area - i beat them both to Lagash spot by 1 or 2 turns. I was hoping Mao would turn around and go somewhere else but i figured he'd do this. I wanted to settle another city 1 SE of where he put his city. This makes me consider early war with him but we'll see.

Then this happens... This is actually the 2nd time - he's trying to give me the city but i have no option to accept. I have to hit escape to exit out of the screen. If i open trade screen with him he won't give me the city if i ask. Must be a bug? Thanks for trying anyway Mao - you built it in a dumb spot though buddy.

I get the marble city settled and am working on the great library. I haven't built this in a while and i'm glad i'll probably get it. I used to always build it and it's probably my favorite wonder. I always have problems farming GP's and this guy helps out a lot.

Tech - i went aesthetics first, but ended up teching alphabet too as no one had it. This will be a very slow game techwise i think because they both seem really slow, and also hate each other so won't be trading amongst themselves. Doesn't hurt my chances to win though - just need to make sure we trade enough to be ahead of the other 4 AI's wherever they are.

I got 2 or 3 cottages matured really fast in the capital which helped. Also having gold, silver, furs, ivory and dye made happiness easy. I switched to hereditary rule after monarchy, but i think i've only built a couple units for that purpose.

To 1200 AD

Spoiler :

Get TGL built in Kish which is NW by sitting bull. It has banana, cow and a lot of riverside grassland for farms so i can run 6-8 scientists eventually here.

Mao's city finally flips and i raze it. Now i can finally settle that really good spot i wanted a couple thousand years ago.

I bulbed Philosophy really late ~600 AD. Was still first which is a good sign the other continent isn't teching too fast. This also means our continent gets a religion so i convert once it spreads and we're all friends now.

Just met Sal and he's ahead of my two friends in tech but about even with me. I have printing press, nationalism, education and liberalism on him. I got a great artist at about 5% odds so i used him for a golden age (with MoM) while building Taj. It will finish next turn and so i'll still have 14 more turns of GA left. Will finish up the last university or two soon and start on oxford. Tech is just starting to pick up thanks to universities, printing press and of course the golden age. Oxford will help a lot too. I REALLY love the great library and a decent GP farm. I bulbed philosophy, education, printing press, astronomy and will get one more GS during the GA. Either i'll bulb chemistry or maybe get another academy.

This city building Taj also has Heroic Epic thanks to barbs. I have a few good production cities and pretty much no army right now. I need to decide what my plans are. Sitting Bull only has a few cities and is way behind in tech so i figure i'll attack him. I can probably just use Cuirassiers so it's fast. I already have more cities than Mao and ahead of him in tech, so with SB's land i'll have no problem attacking him later with cannons and rifles probably. Then with the whole continent i should have a great tech rate and production so can use infantry/artillery somewhere.

I did let Mao settle all along the east coast (4 cities i think). It is really bad land so probably just costing him maintenance. That's why i delayed settling it for so long that he took it.

Saladin is getting ready for war but he doesn't have astronomy yet so i'm not too worried. I just got optics so i'll have to get caravels exploring. So after astronomy i think i'll go for military tradition and start building units.

Still can't trade much - i might switch to free religion before i attack sitting bull. Mao won't be pleased anymore but i'll have units at that point and won't be too afraid of a DOW from him. I would like to get guilds/gunpowder and some other stuff but nothing is open. I'll have to get engineering soon from Mao. Education, lib and nationalism are burning a whole in my pocket. For an immortal game i'm doing an awful lot of self-teching and not much trading. Tech-wise anyway this has been an easy game. I should be able to conquer my continent no problem but i don't want to speak too soon. Also i haven't met everyone, or seen how much land they have so things could get harder later. Looking good now though.

I'm wondering if i can go straight cuirassiers vs SB's super longbows or if that wouldn't be a good idea and i should bring trebs. Will have to think that over. Without turning up the espionage slider for a few turns i doubt i can revolt any cities.

 

[michmbk]

Immortal epic to 10 AD:

Spoiler :

No brainer here – in place, standard mining/bw opening then pottery for all my pretty flood plains. And yes, this hut did not work out so well for my scouting warrior:

He had just beaten a wolf and I didn’t want to lose the hut. Bad roll on the RNG. So my exploring suffered a bit. What is this – PYL Protective leaders? SB and Mao? So rushing doesn’t sound so hot, huh? Think they’re both north, so I need to explore and figure out how to block land with my lovely CRE trait. And seriously, this is horsesh**.

2 of 3 huts are hostile – thanks RNG. Eridu to claim copper, as I’m fearful barbs are going to come knocking.

And seriously, is this one of the best city sites you’ve ever seen, or what?

Wow – cottage central - a bit unhealthy, but still - amazing commerce site. And aggressive blocking:

And how on earth did I pull this off?

I can’t remember the last time I built the Oracle – was only doing it for the fail gold, but hey, I’ll take monarchy out of the deal. Hindsight - should have taken metal casting and traded for monarchy, but oh well - early HR sure is nice for a cottage world. Now I need workers to build those cottages. One last backfill city:

And it’s cottage time! Built this to help the tech rate:

And cut off at 10 AD. I have a settler heading to the southeastern tip – we’ll put cultural pressure on the barb city to the east of me from two sides, and just watch to make sure that Mao doesn’t try to take it. Empire:

A little behind in cities b/c of Oracle and great library, but tech rate is fine since Mao and SB hate each other.

Now just to fill in these remaining cities, finish getting zigs in, and watch those cottages grow. Slightly concerned in power with Mao too, because he's making a number of demands, and right now I'm giving in b/c I don't have a lot of units running around (price for the two wonders I built). Seem to be in ok shape overall though - certainly fine on tech for my island.

 

[Tempesta13]

@michmbk

Spoiler :

I'm also easily out-teching the continent so this seems very easy for immortal. You're even further ahead of them than i was. Bad luck on the huts - my first game where my 1st settler got eaten by a wolf out of no where i popped mysticism and fishing from the two huts by the cap. My "real game" i got 20 gold and a map instead - i'm kinda glad i had to restart cause popping 2 techs would make the already great start too good.

That awesome city was taken by Mao in my game until 375 AD where i culture razed it. I agree that it is an amazing site.

I also agree with you that metal casting would have been much better. With a few early happiness resources available HR isn't as much of a priority. Also, why didn't you settle the marble for TGL? Even if you were pressed for production with the oracle, wouldn't building a settler out of the cap before TGL still get the wonder faster?

Amazing that neither AI has alphabet before the AD's. In my game sitting bull didn't get it for awhile but Mao had it in decent time. This will play out much different than the usual trade-fest to catch up.

What are your plans - attack SB first since he's so small? Even if it's possible with elephants/cats, or maces/trebs probably better off just waiting for cuirassiers, or muskets/cannons since there's so much good land to develop.

Has taoism been founded yet? Maybe bulb philosophy and share religion with Mao to be safer from dow.

 

[Learningciv]

I will play this when I get some time as this leader holds special significance for me (my best victory to date, a 450k immortal, very early AD's domination game from an ordinary start). My last 2 offline games on Immortal I went very badly at due to lack of focus on an overall plan.

If I play this on immortal the leaders won't start with their bonus's (i.e. worker, archery, archers)?

Considering our start and our leader, settle in place, build worker first, tech mining->BW. Gold means we will tech BW before our settler is built and will be able to hook up copper if it is close. If we aren't isolated and have anybody nearby prepare for war.

 

[Tempesta13]

It's a monarch save, so they'll have archery but not the worker.

 

[michmbk]

Tempesta:

@michmbk

Spoiler :

I'm also easily out-teching the continent so this seems very easy for immortal. You're even further ahead of them than i was. Bad luck on the huts - my first game where my 1st settler got eaten by a wolf out of no where i popped mysticism and fishing from the two huts by the cap. My "real game" i got 20 gold and a map instead - i'm kinda glad i had to restart cause popping 2 techs would make the already great start too good.

That awesome city was taken by Mao in my game until 375 AD where i culture razed it. I agree that it is an amazing site.

I also agree with you that metal casting would have been much better. With a few early happiness resources available HR isn't as much of a priority. Also, why didn't you settle the marble for TGL? Even if you were pressed for production with the oracle, wouldn't building a settler out of the cap before TGL still get the wonder faster?

Amazing that neither AI has alphabet before the AD's. In my game sitting bull didn't get it for awhile but Mao had it in decent time. This will play out much different than the usual trade-fest to catch up.

What are your plans - attack SB first since he's so small? Even if it's possible with elephants/cats, or maces/trebs probably better off just waiting for cuirassiers, or muskets/cannons since there's so much good land to develop.

Has taoism been founded yet? Maybe bulb philosophy and share religion with Mao to be safer from dow.

Spoiler :

I realized after I took monarchy that it was pretty dumb - early forges would have been nice, and MC is great trade bait. I had actually hooked up the marble 2 turns after I started the great library (love creative) and had prechopped a couple trees, so it was build pretty fast overall. I figured settling 3 tiles from the marble was fine with Gilgy, because he'd get that third border pop by the time I needed it, and sure enough, he did.

Taoism hasn't been founded I don't believe, so I'm thinking about bulbing philo with the scientist who's likely to come in a few turns. Mao and I are both confucian,and he hates SB, so I feel moderately safe, but he also declares at pleased.

I have room for at least 4-5 more cities, 2 of which are pretty good spots, so I'm figuring settle those while cottages mature, and use culture to gain a bit more land. Then it's probably go time on SB with cannons & some sort of horse unit (as long as Mao doesn't get him to cap first. If Mao does, than likely backstab on him with cannons/horse).

I'm amazed at how slow our continent is teching - with the two early religions ont he other continent, I think it's unlikely there's a tech lovefest over there, so this feels a bit more like an emperor game so far. Of course, working FIVE GOLD MINES probably contributes to that too.

I haven't read your second spoiler to keep myself from learning the other civs, but in the first, i liked where you got kish and lagash - blocked more land than I did, which probably means more cities later on. You'll certainly flip Mao's stupid city sandwiched between yours too.

 

[michmbk]

Crusher - On the CRE discussion - you're probably right...I'm sure I'll see the benefits of it at immortal and above - really helps claim land, and in this game, I have no fears about where I settle because I know I'll win the border wars. Huge when you're dealing with significant AI advantages in most other aspects of the game.

 

[Phil725]

Immortal - Epic - 10AD

This game is shaping up to be my second easy immortal win in a row. I would encourage anyone trying to move up a level to play this game.

Spoiler :

I opened the same way everyone else did, mining, BW, pottery while going worker, warriors, settler. I got two gold huts, and a vulture popped hostiles later in the round from a barb guarded hut. I guess technically for a vulture it was a free EXP hut. This was also the first game where I was able to block barbs off with warriors. 2 of them blocks all spawns from the south, and 3 more kept them far away from any cities.

I quickly noticed the cruel joke that was played on us all. Here's the best early game civ in the game. The only catch is that your next to the hardest civ to rush, another pro civ too far away to rush, and have lots of land to peacefully expand into. The only use I got out of vultures was taking two barb cities, and I still haven't even teched off priesthood.

I settled my first city right in SB's face. 3S2E of Cahokia. It's a great city site, claims copper, and I found out later that it pretty much kills off SB for this game. I just missed getting SH built there, but I built the other culture buildings, and it's holding it's own against SB's capital. Unfortunately, that's about the only use I got out of creative. It's still my favorite trait though.

Other than that I got the excellent 3 gold site, a city NE of the capital to block in SB, and a barb city on the eastern coast to block in Mao. Now I have more than half of our continent to settle whenever I want.

The rest of the round is just settling more cities while teching off literature, and then on to currency. Mao and SB hate each other thanks to peace weights, and Mao has already declared on him. Mao is blocked in to 7 cities, and SB has 3. I have 8 settled at 10AD, with room for 5-6 more peacefully. I think there's another civ WB away from Mao, since I'm ahead of him on EP.

The empire at 10AD:

Eridu should get the GLib built, the wonder pace is pretty slow in this game. I also have the Parthenon half built there. Maybe I can start pushing SB's capital back even farther. Anyway, this is a very stacked starting location. 5 gold mines, flood plains galore, happiness resources all over the place. I guess it makes up for not being able to rush anyone. And techs:

I feel like I'm back on monarch. I'm behind on a few techs, but the AI's don't have enough land to keep up, and I haven't even started tech whoring yet. Not sure when I'll take out the continent. I'll probably try and take steel off lib and go from there.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

IMM/Normal

I was going to work on early tech rate. I was going to use scientists since we're CRE. But...

to 10 AD

Spoiler :

Early IW from a hut!

That be 3000 BC son. Huts are so gay. Fortunately it won't turn the game since the opponents near me are all faraway PRO weaklings. Stuff it AIs.

Another game, another opening where my entire anti-barb force consists of warriors. I lost two warriors again, since there's a lot of open space. One got to woods II though...over str 4 when fortified in forests! Most never actually saw more than an animal though. Nothing special in terms of settling. Just blocked north, then going to gradually backfill. Marble is the priority here since I want TGL, parthenon, and NE. That should be a good GPP setup.

To ~ 1500 AD

Spoiler :

I didn't want to bulb, so I didn't. I sold techs for cash, settled all the massed GS I got in the capitol, and just chugged away. Since we have marble I took nationalism from lib (and proceeded straight to constitution to start running rep). I also backfilled, chopping only grassland forest. Plains forests will be saved for RP, since I intend to run emancipation plains forests will be my hammer source, and a good one at that.

I'm in position for a cannon war on mao. He's been picking fights with SB so SB hates him. They don't have OB, so mao can only attack me through the right side there, where I'll be attacking him. He's protective, so I am going to declare almost immediately in the next segment. I have incredible amounts of production compared to what you normally get at this point on immortal, but I don't want to fight a STACK of rifles attacking me. I can use CR II cannon (I'm in theocracy and spread confuc. around) to deal with rifles in cities, but I'll of course prefer if I can get a lot of cities before that.

My position is pretty strong. I'm weighing my options. I'll probably blow my continent to pieces, then just vassal everything and be done with it. Sal/izzy/mehmed hopefully distract each other. I'll bribe them vs each other if possible.

I could go culture but that isn't very fun when you're in position to smear the world.

 

[Crusher1]

Emperor/Epic 1AD

Spoiler :

I went early war with SB, which in retrospect, was a bad choice. His land is $hit and I could have expanded to much better land peacefully. Anyways, Mao joined the war and politely suicided around 4 units on 2 archers and a ds on a hill 4 me. However, MAO actually killed SB right after I sued for peace - I would have been pissed if I missed out on that lol.

Tech path went Alpha so I could build research and speed up tech pace (along with 2 scientist in the Capital), Myst, Med, Preist, Monarchy, Currency, CoL, and am almost finished with CS. I have level 4 units so I plan to head up Asthetics, Literature, then directly to Liberalism. I have quite a bit of trees left in Capital and with Bureaucracy and marble I'll be getting 30H towards the GL so can finish in time!? Hopefully I can trade for MC from Mao in the future so I can plop down 3-4 workshops in all the cities I plan to build Universities in. I want Oxford done before 1000 AD.

Then I plan to go Elephants/Cannon vs Mao. I have 4 more city sites to settle ASAP too. Anyways, the game looks pretty good so far =D.