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Monarch Student^ XXII Huayna Capac

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by BigTime, Mar 30, 2010.

  1. BigTime

    BigTime Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
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    Chapel Hill, NC
    Sorry for the long delay guys, civ has bored me and I will now be hosting these games without plating them. Also, I've been away on a trip. If a more active member would like to host this series, send me a message and I will consider it.

    Nonetheless, here is the next installment of Monarch Student Prime, with Huayna Capac!



    Huayna is quite often cites as the "best" leader, and for good reason. He arguably has the two best traits in the game, Industrious and Financial. He can cottage spam with ease and put up wonders while he does it. His traits give him a very solid economy, and his uniques are powerhouse as well. I really like him, and I too think he is one of the best leaders, but if he truly is the "best", I don't know.

    His UU is the Quecha:



    Also known as take-an-enemy-capital-at-3000BC. This insanely powerful unique is an aggressive warrior that has a 50% bonus against archers. From monarch-immortal a quecha rush can land you an enemy capital early in the game, overcoming the fact that the AI starts with archers. Even if not used for rushing, they are solid anti-barb units until axes appear. I love it.

    His UB is the Terrace:



    A granary replacement that also provides +2 culture. This is also a very powerful unique. It basically eliminates the need for monuments, even though Huayna starts with Mysticism, since it's a building you'll be building in every city anyway. This also goes hand in hand with financial, advocating early pottery to get terraces up and cottages rolling. I love this as well. Did I mention I love Huayna Capac? :p

    The Start:



    Sushi galore! A pity Huayna doesn't start with fishing, but the plains hill will help getting those work boats out early. I don't see any reason to move, and this capital looks strong as a GP farm, with a plains cow supplementing those 3 (!) fish.

    Fractal map this time

    Huts and Events are OFF, add events in the custom scenario if you wish. (just make sure to cover the top part with your hand so you don't see the AIs :p)

    And a cut-and-paste from Meatbuster's Monarch Student games:

    Save the file and place it in your Documents/BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Then unzip it into your Documents/BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Then use Playing a scenario to play your desired level. Or use custom scenario if you want to remove huts and/or events.

    Recommended Checkpoints:
    *1000BC or 1AD
    *500AD
    *1000AD or Liberalism
    *Victory!

    Please remember to put the journals of your adventures inside spoiler tags.

    For Monarch+ players please try to add archery back to the barbs in WB. If you don't, AIs will capture cities with archers very early in the game, which is no fun. If you prefer easymode barbs, that's fine too, just don't go wondering why an AI captured a barb city in the very early BCs!

    Thanks go to TMIT for making an excellent map creation guide and to mjg5591 for getting this series back on track!

    And finally, the save!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. oppy

    oppy Chieftain

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    Really amazing start for an amazing leader. I couldn't resist playing this one ASAP.
    Emperor/Epic
    Spoiler :

    Started with fishing and building a quechua. Soon found vikings and planned to quechua rush them. Had the capital on the plains hills to get the quechua and fishing boat early.
    I think I went quechua > fishing boat > quechuax6 > worker
    I had positioned the quechua on the forest hills leading up to the vikings to hopefully get some xp for cover. I got some kills though I lost one to a bear. Finally when I had 7 quechuas I sent them all to viking border and took the capital and 2nd city soon after around 2000 BC. Seems late but the distance was very far. I went into economic doom. I sorta regret keeping the 2nd city now.
    Research went fishing > mining > bw > sailing > writing > pottery
    my economy is bad because of the distance from the capital but I have 6 workers now, 3 libraries and a lot of land so I should recover to hopefully do a run at liberalism, but as it stands I'm not sure I can make it. Not to mention Rome is near me and has full espionage at me so I think he is completely alone too. Not good. According to the religion screen Judaism and Buddhism are tied at 25% influence so I'm happy it's not a religious trading fest with 5 other civs massed together.

    However, I have a monster of a leader with financial so I'm hopeful about this. The distance between my cities meant barbs were a huge problem and I actually had to reload due to double axeman spawn :(

    Current:






     
  3. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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    This looks like a good setup for a first try at Monarch, so I'm in. I'll probably start on Friday.
     
  4. MacBony

    MacBony Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    15 is pretty far for a quecha rush, but I have run into one of Ragnar's workers. I've never really stolen workers when not planning on going to war - is it a good idea? It's 3300bc - is that early enough to get peace before he rushes me or should I let it be?
     
  5. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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    Spoiler :
    Stuff like this needs to be in spoilers, so those of us who have yet to play the game don't know what is coming.
     
  6. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    @MacBony

    Spoiler :
    He rushes you? With what?

    Just fortify a couple quecha into the forests around his city, and he's essentially trapped until you are ready to deal with him (probably Construction - he'll have lots of archers on that hill).
     
  7. MacBony

    MacBony Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Sorry about the early spoiler. Here's me on Monarch/Epic until 700BC:

    Spoiler :
    Tech went fishing>mining>bw>ah>tw>pot>writing
    My cap built a quecha first switching to forested plains hills as soon as the border popped. made 3x workboats while my two quechas stole this worker and escorted him home:


    When I got him back I mined the two hills at the south and built some settlers. I decided to try an axeman rush at about 1400. By that point I had 4 cities and had terraces in all of them and didn't see anywhere immediate to expand (didn't yet have Iron Working for most of those jungle tiles to the west) and so I pumped out 9 before I invaded with 4 more that were done the turn after the war started. By that time Boudica had 2 cities besides his cap and neither was in a very good location. 9 axemen vs 3 archers and I lost 5. Took out the southern city 5 turns later and then moved on to his last and took it out in 700bc.

    I wasn't sure what to focus on. I knew a war was going to come but feared Boudica was arming himself well after I stole his worker. He had iron in his BFC but hadn't yet researched it (thankfully) and so I'm probably a bit off. My next thought was to try to get Calendar for the extra happiness I'll be able to get and so I'm working on Math. Beyond that I guess the short-term goal would be to REX and fill up my continent?


     

    Attached Files:

  8. Fleme

    Fleme Obey the Kitty!

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    I played Immortal/Marathon to 1 AD - and resigned. No screenies in spoiler, just a short report:

    Spoiler :
    Settle in place, Quechua sent exploring north. I ran into Ragnar like 5 turns into the game and decided then and there that he'd be biting the bullet. Capital was building a quechua already as I was teching fishing. Built 2 more and went for Nidaros which at the time had 2 archers. 2 dead quechuas, 2 dead archers and 2 capitals for me. Workboated the fishes, Nidaros had a viking worker which was paired by another one I built there and they began chopping away the forests for Stonehenge. Got SH, settled first city next to the stone and built 'mids in Cuzco. Settled another city on the coast and chopped the GLH there (had a lot of forest growth). Got a Marble trade from AC and built the Parthenon and the Great Library.

    With that and having a large island full of green all to myself and intercontinental trade routes with an AI that's easy to please and reliable to trade with I decided to call it quits. I could take any win I wanted but can't really be arsed to.
     
  9. MacBony

    MacBony Chieftain

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    @VoiceofUnreason

    Spoiler :
    At the time I only had 2 Quecha anywhere near him. I was worried about retribution as I wasn't planning to rush with the Quechas - I was thinking of waiting and using some stronger units once I was able to expand. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that if I'm Inca and I'm worried that an early rush won't work, what do I have to fear from an AI without something that comes that early - so I stole the worker and ended up getting peace before I saw a single military unit. In fact, he didn't seem to react well to the theft at all - he got a few archers up in the cap but not enough to defend against me when I came back 2500 years later.

    I guess the lesson I learned is to take risks like that as the benefits outweigh the negatives.
     
  10. King Pluto

    King Pluto Emperor

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    Nice looking start. I'll be playing this after I get all my work done tomorrow.
     
  11. Monsterzuma

    Monsterzuma the sly one

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    I get a system crash when I run the Immortal save @ Immortal difficulty, Normal speed, all other settings unchanged.

    (luckily it's just this save; the thing nearly gave me a heart attack - I can't go cold turkey on civ! :cry:)
     
  12. Fleme

    Fleme Obey the Kitty!

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    ^Same thing happened to me. I used the Emperor save and changed it to Immortal.
     
  13. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Of course, marathon isn't easier or anything ;). I sort of jest, but for this marathon opens up a tactic that would likely fail on normal completely.

    My summary:

    IMM/Norm

    1 AD

    Spoiler :


    I settled in place. Nidaros is a little far away for a quecha rush on normal, which was a good call because I'd eventually find out it's on a hill. So I built a quecha, a few fish boats, then a settler before 1st worker to make sure I got the stone/FP/rice site to the north. After fishing just went worker techs, including masonry and sailing. Picked up stonehenge (after founding 2nd city) and pyramids (after founding 3rd)...the latter using stone.

    Then, Ragnar went WHEOOHRN :mad:. I had no way of knowing whether it was worst enemy AC or myself, since it depends on what range his nowarprob roll was when he picked war. With that in mind, I had no choice but to spam troops for defense...or possibly offense if his target was AC, who is across water.

    This one screenshot should sum up how things look at 1 AD:



    Not great, not terrible. I have a decent shot of TGL to go with mids, and enough military to live. Unfortunately I'm forced to pay out for a large-ish garrison in case I'm the war target and such has hampered my expansion as well.



    ~liberalism

    Spoiler :


    Looks like my garrisons are needed, but not for the purpose I was expecting:



    So, he boats his forces over to AC, completely stranding them from his mainland cities and temporarily dropping his troop counts in his cities to gandhi or frederick like levels. Of course, I decide to strike now rather than waiting for a big(er) tech lead on him :goodjob:.



    This war lasts absolutely forever. It might normally be considered a bad thing, but basically I was using 1 and sometimes a 2nd city to build units (catapults, axes, spears, archers) to fight increasingly weakening viking resistance, while the rest of the cities just spammed out infra. Captured workers went to town improving new cities. My tech path after construction was civil service ----> banking ----> astro. Only then did I go for things like corp, bio, and lib (in that order). I lost liberalism ~1450 AD and didn't care at all.





    1844 UN

    Spoiler :


    Meeting the other AIs really pissed me off, and it's one of the things about this game that I hate: starts are not remotely balanced. Peter had about 1/3 of the world's land and pop, and to get it he conquered...approximately 1 barb city or so :mad:. Justinian capitulated or permanently (aka peacevassal) allied the remaining civs. So with his 3409568347906837490568734908673489067890 cities and 4 religions peter decided to culture whore, and despite his being a heathen to super zealot justinian, of course they like each other.

    Newbies complain that the AI teams up on the human and has bias, and good players like to refute that. The trouble is, the newbies are correct, it's just that the AIs are biased against the human in insidious ways, like peacevassal, warmonger respect/peaceweight, and feeding culture whores techs.

    Despite peter's land advantage and justinian's chain vassalage, I took the tech lead using rep/bio and developed cottages (rep, FS, eman, env, FR). I easily got to computers 1st, and was prepping a nuke fest on peter. Then, #1 pop peter built the UN. Despite justinian's power lead and multiple vassals, I was actually #2 in actual, self-controlled pop. I won UN resident. Seeing this, I a) bribed pericles to representation b) bribed AC to rep and c) switched to theocracy w/o a state religion (left FR). This pushed pericles, AC, and justinian to +8 or more respectively, and handed me the game.

    Peter got lucky. I was 1 turn off internet (nobody else had computers yet), already had fission, completed MP in < 10 turns, and could already built paratroopers when I won, and his #3 was only around 30k culture. Peter did not have flight. If I couldn't win UN, I was going to go space, and I was going to nuke + paradrop raze anybody who had something to say about that.



    Final AI diplo situation:







    So I managed to overcome yet another dose of cheesy AI crap.

     
  14. Fleme

    Fleme Obey the Kitty!

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    ^ I'm not denying that; Game was easy for me to the point that it was no longer interesting to play it at all.
     
  15. oppy

    oppy Chieftain

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    Spoiler :

    Game was pretty boring because of map. No one to war with after killing off Vikings since Augustus + praetorians = avoid.

    I think I ended up winning liberalism around 1300 and spaceship around 1940. Not sure how you won w/ UN. The other civs were in war nonstop with Russia or Aztecs and I kept avoiding the war and getting negative 'you didn't help me' type stuff.

    About this: "an AI that's easy to please and reliable to trade with " I found I couldn't get Augustus to friendly at all and he wouldn't trade monopoly techs with me at Pleased :(
     
  16. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Spoiler :


    It was easy, because by the time I met the other continent, everybody had capitulated to justinian or peacevassal allied him except Peter. Hence, there actually were no wars after that. I would have just lazed to space, nuking + razing any culture city or space capitol as needed, but UN was more convenient.

     
  17. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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    OK, I'm finally done with my Izzy game, and ready to take my first stab at Monarch. I'm going to do this one as Monarch/Epic. I thought about Marathon to maximize the value of the Quechua, but having never played at that speed before I figured I better stick to a pace I'm familiar with.

    Interesting starting location with Cows and lots of Fish. On the down side, starting with Mysticism and Agriculture means I can't actually improve either. Pending the actual start, which may change my strategy if I see something like Corn/Wheat in my BFC (I doubt it, given that food) I see three basic start options:

    1) Tech AH > Mining > BW > Fishing > Pottery. Build order Worker > Quech (probably x2) > (Workboat > Settler > Worker) or (Settler > Workboat > Worker) > Workboat/Quechua. Hard to plan out that far...

    2) Tech Fishing > AH > Mining > BW > Pottery. Build order Quechua x 2 > Workboat > Worker > Settler > Worker/Workboat > more Quechua.

    3) Go for early religion with Poly and then switch to one of the first two tracks. Build order will start with a couple of Quechua, either way.

    I'm thinking this may be a good civ to go for a cultural victory with, in which case early religion may be a good choice. On the other hand, founding a religion certainly isn't necessary for achieving a cultural victory. I'll probably do one of the other two openings since they are more flexible and allow me to get my infrastructure up faster, but I'd appreciate any comments.

    Hmm, should I go for Masonry and built the Great Wall? That's another appealing path.
     
  18. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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    Monarch/Epic to 25AD:
    Spoiler :

    I can't escape the feeling that I've screwed the pooch on this game. I was VERY unhappy to find myself alone on a small continent with Ragnar, and he with his capital on a gd hill! The only other civ I'm in contact with is Augustus, who appears to be isolated on an adjoining landmass. Starting to look like an archipelago map, though I haven't been able to reach any other landmasses to date.

    Anyway, I've fought three wars with Ragnar so far, all initiated by me. I took one city from him, and snaked a couple of workers, and generally kept him from expanding. Here's my map:



    Ragnar only seems to have the two cities, and I'm starting to win the culture war for the horses to the E of Uppsala, thanks to a Terrace and a Library there. I've got a pretty good culture base built up in Machu Pichu too, so I'll probably start to overcome Birka. While there is some good land to the NW I could colonize, I'm concerned about the impact on my economy. If I'm going to add a city, I'd rather it was Nidaros.

    My current city production:

    I've got research, a library, and a scientist specialist in each of the first two cities I built. I'm keeping them from growing atm, because there is really nothing I want to build in either location.


    The tech race isn't going badly, all things considered.


    Not much to say regarding diplomacy. Ragnar doesn't like me much, no surprise.

    Tech tree:


    I just got currency, and started construction. After I get that, I'm thinking work on getting Monarchy, but might do Code of Laws first.

    Demographics:

    Not the leader, but maybe I'm doing OK. Never played Monarch before, so while I would be bummed at this situation in Prince I might be doing OK for all I know.

    Anyway, my current plan is to get Cats, build a bunch, and take out Ragnar so I control the landmass completely. I need too damn many techs atm, from Calendar (two plantation resources in my BFCs right now, and one more that I can easily get) to Compass (need to find more AI civs for tech trading) to CoL and Monarchy (to improve my finances). I don't recall seeing Confucionism founded, but if not I should probably do CoL next and try to get a religion.

    Any feedback would be gratefully appreciated.
     
  19. CHEESE!

    CHEESE! On a long nostalgia trip

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    drlake-

    Spoiler :
    How did you get -10 (!) from Ragnar?!
     
  20. oppy

    oppy Chieftain

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    He said he fought 3 wars.

    Spoiler :


    drlake, was he declaring on you every time? TBH your game really looks weird to me. If you were declaring, you should have won more than 1 city since you found copper > axes could have killed him easily. If he was declaring every time you are doing something wrong. You could easily have gotten him to pleased with Hereditary Rule + shared religion. He's not so bad that you can't control him to war with him when YOU want to.

    So to clarify, you should have made a choice once you scouted the map.
    1. Kill ragnar ASAP for the land = quechua or axe rush
    OR
    2. Let him live rex heavy to grab more land and tech to monarchy for Hereditary rule.

    As played I hate your iron city. I know you needed the resource but it's just going to let Augustus settle all over your land. 1SE of your warrior fogbuster should have been first.

     

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