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Monarch Student^ XXXVII Brennus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by BigTime, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. BigTime

    BigTime Prince

    Joined:
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    Chapel Hill, NC
    Welcome to the 37th edition of Monarch Student Prime! This week's glorious leader?



    A pretty balanced leader, Brennus is a good mix of warmonger and techer. Spiritual and Charismatic give you a ton of happy building cost reductions, and provide nice war-time bonuses. His starting techs are not so great however, but you gotta make do with what you got! Unfortunately, the Celts have one of, if not the worst UU/UB combos in the game.

    His UU is the Gallic Warrior:



    A sword that starts with Guerilla I and requires copper or iron to build. Nothing special at all, I consider it on par with the Ballista Elephant of Khmer. Hills aren't common enough for the bonus to be a huge benefit, and iron is usually more common than copper, so that bonus isn't all that great either. Nothing to write home about, this thing kinda sucks.

    His UB is the Dun:



    A walls that gives all eligible units Guerrilla I. This is pretty bad as well. While you can get some good defenders, Guerrilla is not the best offensive promo, so this really loses its shine when you can get combat instead. Also, walls are really unnecessary unless you are on the defense, so they are an uncommon build. A bad UB in my opinion.

    The Start:



    Well lookey there! Some cows! You can all thank NihilZero, who prompted me to find a cow glitch start just for Monarch Student Prime! But I was generous and gave you marble and some FPs, so it's not all bad...

    Fractal map again.

    Huts and Events are OFF, add events in the custom scenario if you wish. (just make sure to cover the top part with your hand so you don't see the AIs )

    And a cut-and-paste from Meatbuster's Monarch Student games:

    Save the file and place it in your Documents/BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Then unzip it into your Documents/BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Then use Playing a scenario to play your desired level. Or use custom scenario if you want to remove huts and/or events.

    Recommended Checkpoints:
    *1000BC or 1AD
    *500AD
    *1000AD or Liberalism
    *Victory!

    Please remember to put the journals of your adventures inside spoiler tags.

    For Monarch+ players please try to add archery back to the barbs in WB. If you don't, AIs will capture cities with archers very early in the game, which is no fun. If you prefer easymode barbs, that's fine too, just don't go wondering why an AI captured a barb city in the very early BCs!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I think there's no question that Dun is one of the worst UB's - it does not even work as advertized. However, I'd go so far as to say the Gallic Warrior is at least a mediocre UU if not slightly better and nowhere close to the terribleness of the Balista.

    I would not discount the advantage of the Copper OR Iron requirement for this Sword unit. The very fact that you might get Copper very soon after one of the first techs in BW, makes this unit a fairly early rush possibility if you choose to go IW next. While Guerrilla may seem situational from a map perspective, when you combine the Charismatic trait - that both Celt leaders have - with the innate Guerrilla I bonus promo on the GW, you can get very fast Guerrilla III swords which are very powerful regardless of hills or not. And there always are some hills. GII makes for faster movement if you plan your paths accordingly. Anyway, I think the GW is more flexible than it's given credit for. Plus, at least it gets a bonus that passes on during upgrading as opposed to some UUs. The bottom line is that the GW is better than its counterpart and can be a very effective offensive unit early, which can't be said of many of the UUs in the game.

    edit: that start is asstastic :)
     
  3. stimpyhoek

    stimpyhoek Warlord

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    Spoiler :
    Its actually 200bc but I need a rest... Congrats to map maker its a nightmare. I met em all but I see very little land. Thought I was bein clever doin the oracle alpha opening(sounds like a chess strategy) so I could control em all like puppetmaster. Alex in the corner HAD to be bribed or it would be me. Oh yeah I got that eastern site, settler at size 2(that site is awesome) Nothing else is awesome tho. Anyway finally managed to give currency alpha and 3 other techs to Alex to start in on Rome. Thought that was my saviour. Anyway Alex marched his little stack across and then PHOOM romans obliterated him, war ended. Now both neighbours hate me. (I have no army coz I built all the wonders)Will carry on tomorrow. :goodjob:
     
  4. Strategoi

    Strategoi Chieftain

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    I will definitely follow this.
     
  5. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    Dublin, Ireland
    Hey, something really weird happened. I opened up the Immortal save, and there is no settler! I understand the cow glitch and all, but isn't playing without a settler a little hard? :lol:

    Anybody else have this problem or did my file get corrupted or some weirdness?
     
  6. CaF

    CaF Warlord

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    Germany
    same thing here with the settler. gonna have to play around in WB? oh no !
     
  7. BigTime

    BigTime Prince

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    Uh-oh. I'll check it out, one sec.

    EDIT: Fixed, apparently when I cleared the beginunit and endunit lines, I forgot to re-type our beginunit/endunit settler so we actually get one!
     
  8. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    What's the cow glitch?
     
  9. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    Ya, what is this cow glitch?
     
  10. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Basically, the random start generator (or whatever you would call it) thinking that a plains cow tile serves as decent food for the cap. Plain cow is not a bad tile - and actually quite good for EXP/IMP leaders - but only in conjunction with other better food tiles. If it's the sole food resource though it does not meet regulation start standards.
     
  11. Mantic0re

    Mantic0re Prince

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    Settler is on a flood plain which is lost when you settle. So I'm considering moving 1N to keep the flood plains,two hills and marble. Not amazing but at least the production will be tolerable.
     
  12. zoobanaba

    zoobanaba Chieftain

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    Would guerrilla 3 be preferable to guerrilla 1/combat 2? I don't play the Celts much and honestly never noticed the 50% withdrawal bonus of G3 before.
     
  13. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    G3 can be very powerful. IMO - If you are going to use the GW to the fullest and are setup for using them early game, then you should focus on the G3 line. It allows you to use the GW effectively prior to Construction.
     
  14. qyll

    qyll Prince

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    Emperor/normal, domination @ 1800 AD

    Spoiler :


    Moved 1 NE to get the cow. Turned out to be a good move. While meeting some unsightly neighbors, I opened animal husbandry-agriculture-wheel-horseback riding.



    I was originally planning to horse rush Alex, but he had a ton of troops already, so I attacked Caesar instead and bribed Alex to do the same. Caesar went down pretty easy.



    I got the GLib and after that, I gunned straight to liberalism. First GS built an academy in capital, second, third, and fourth GS bulbed philosophy, education, and liberalism respectively. During this time, Alexander DoWed me and sent a stack of ~8 troops. I was able to ward him off but not attack him. I later gave him a treaty in his favor. I maintained a good tech lead and nabbed military tradition with liberalism.



    I quickly amass a sizable cuirassier army and cap a backwards Alex.




    After I cap Alex, I move on to Darius and transition into cavalry. He's an extremely easy target, as he has been the lightning rod this game for the Buddhist bloc. After that, it's on to Peter. By now, I have cavalry.



    He goes down.



    My last target is Hammurabi, who has a defensive pact with Gilgamesh. Oh well. By now, using mounted units alone is no longer viable, and I have to supplement them with cannons as I gradually transition into infantry.



    I take 3 of Hammy's cities before he capitulates.



    And that's game.





    Post-game thoughts:
    It was all about horses this game. Horse archers took care of Rome, cuirassiers took care of Greece, and cavalry took care of Russia. After that, it was ~15 turns of infantry before victory. Having marble helped me get GLib and Taj Mahal, which helped.

     
  15. stimpyhoek

    stimpyhoek Warlord

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    Spoiler :
    After my last exciting cliffhanger Im sure u cant wait for this... ;) It was 200bc and I was knackered and had 4 towns and 2 neighbours that hated me. Had no idea but had the will... The idea for victory came from getting code of laws 1st which gave me confucian. Yup only 4 cities for me. Bulbed philo and bingo I could culture it. Not so easy tho coz I had to defend wave after wave of Alexs armies. Once I got peace(600ad ish) I made 3 culture towns and 1 army type place(Only ever had 4 towns). Teched to rifling then turned it off. Sad thing was once I got rifles Alex came at me with some mega medieval stacks. Would certainly be dead except I libbed MT and had DP with Gilga(who was head of AP) The entire world declared on Alex :king: So after rifles I turned up culture slider and got it 1834. The best part was watching every countries stacks coming thru my territory to attack him. Alex held out very well as he had millions of units but then Russias 3rd wave was all cavs. Glad I won a game when it was in the crapper. Thankyou host.
     
  16. Strategoi

    Strategoi Chieftain

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    I am actually working on a Let's Play of this and should have it uploaded by Friday. Hopefully I won't fail! :p

    EDIT: To YouTube...
     
  17. avw94

    avw94 Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    Horse Archer rushed Julius and managed to kill him off while still in the B.C.s. However, Alex is starting to run away, so im gonna Hores Archer/Elephant rush him. I'll probably wait until feudalism so that I can cap him. I think he's already up to nine or ten cities. With Julius' cities, I'm still only at eight. Darius is close, so I'll probably cap him just for giggles. Domination, anybody?
     
  18. avw94

    avw94 Chieftain

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    I don't reall think that the Celtics' U.U. is the all that bad. There are better U.U.s out there, if you have access to copper, you can easily sword rush somebody early on. I will admit that their U.B. is pretty bad, and may actuall be the woorst in the game.
     
  19. prayandr

    prayandr Chieftain

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    Emperor to 2680 BC

    Stopped early b/c I could use some advice
    Spoiler :

    so I decided looking at the starting location that if I saw no resources to the south I'd move the settler 1 NE. I saw nothing w/my scout so I did this which revealed another cow. This seemed ok, so I settled here

    Spoiler :


    My neighbors to the more or less immediate east and west, respectively are,

    Spoiler :






    My dotmap

    Spoiler :


    I already have a settler ready to found my 2nd city (white) on the next turn. My next city is the blue one on the southwest part of the screen with the horse, rice and ivory. Alexander is just southwest of it and it seems like the only direction he can expand in, unless there is more land he can expand into west of him, though it looks like the west coast. I have a settler at the top of the queue with no hammers put into it yet which I would use to settle that city. I don't have bronze working so I can't speed up the settler, which will take 9 turns minimum to complete. I want to improve my 2nd city w/my worker so I probably wont be able to road, so it should be 5 turns to settle, so I'd be 14 turns away from city 3. Any advice on whether I should go for this settler or whether alternatively I should just go warrior, worker so I can grow to three and keep up on my improvements. My dilemma as far as I can see it is that I want access to one of the 2 horses, both of which are very close to the ai borders, so my only chance will be if I grab it soon. Also, if I were to take the horse near Julius Caesar I'd need to settle my 2nd city 1 south so I could share the corn w/the horse city, otherwise it will have 0 food.

    Anyways, I'd love some input.
     
  20. ahcos

    ahcos King

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    General thoughts on this for the opening including calculations for the best starting tech:

    Cap location

    Towards the northern cow is almost a must have to settle here, otherwise the cap is too food poor to take advantage of the hills. Settling on the FP here is just bad, there's so little food around that you'll want to farm this one for sure. Any probably wasted resource will get picked up by the 2nd borderpop, so there's nothing lost. A no-brainer in this situation.

    First techs

    Your best food resource is floodplain (yes, that's bad), therefore you'll want to improve it even though it'll take aeons to improve. Researching agriculture first will give you a discount on AH, so i'd do this here for sure. The two cows might be the best tiles early on, but if you don't work a farmed FP you won't be able to grow into them fast enough.

    With agriculture first:

    turn0: settle, start on worker and agriculture
    turn9: agriculture in, start AH
    turn15: worker in, start improve the northern FPs for 7 turns, work unimproved FPs for 3F/1C, start on warrior
    turn20: AH in
    turn21: farm ready, 18F stored, grow next turn with zero overflow working the 4f/1C FP
    turn22: start improving the northern cow for 4 turns, city works 2 FPs for 5F/2C
    turn25: Cow ready, start working it, 5F/4H/2C, 15F stored, 10 hammers in the warrior
    turn26: move worker one south, build a farm for one turn, 20 food stored, next turn grow with 1F overflow
    turn27: start improving the southern cow for 4 turns, work unimproved FP for 6F/4H/3C total, warrior finished with 3H overflow, start another warrior
    turn30: second cow ready, 6F/7H/3C, 19F stored, two turns to grow, warrior ready, start another warrior

    tl;dr: Turn30 both cows+1FP improved, 19F stored + two turns to size 4, two warriors


    With AH first:

    turn0: settle, start worker and AH
    turn13: AH in, start agriculture
    turn15: worker in, move to the cow and start improving it for 4 turns, start a warrior, work unimproved FPs for 3F/1C
    turn18: cows ready, 3F/4H/1C, 9F stored
    turn19: move worker to second
    turn20: start improving northern cow for 4 turns
    turn21: agriculture in, warrior in with 0H overflow, build another warrior
    turn22: grow next turn with 2F overflow
    turn23: second cow in, 4F/7H/2C working two cows
    turn24: warrior in with 0H overflow, start another warrior, move worker on FP and start improving it for 7 turns
    turn27: warrior in with 6H overflow, start another warrior
    turn28: grow next turn with 2F overflow
    turn29: warrior in with 5H overflow, start another warrior work another unimproved FP for 5F/7H/3C
    turn30: FP farmed, 6F/7H/3C, 7F stored, 12H into the warrior

    tl;dr: turn 30 both cows+1FP improved, 7F stored + 4 turns to grow, 3 warriors


    It's clear that there's lost growth with AH first. Also note:

    1. there's some commerce lost in the AH approach as you'll grow slower into the tiles, i was too lazy to calculate that aswell but it's rather easy to do, just add up every turn you'll grow slower into a tile here as one lost commerce. This should come out as ~1 lost turn on early techs.

    2. you don't have something to do for all those warriors early. It ain't a problem on Monach (and up to immortal), but on deity you'll have maintenance problems with that many warriors doing nothing so early. Better get rid of building tons of them asap. You could build a monument instead, but that is lost hammers that early - another point against AH first.

    Man, i hate calculating earlyturns :) But it helps sometimes.


    Spoilers containing thoughts on the opening strategy, next techs and city placement:

    Spoiler :


    1. Cities

    Either the Corn in the east or the Gold, preferable the Corn as it blocks off more land. JC is near, so you want to settle it right on the hill. It has a chance to get ivory+horse in the second ring. If you want to play it a little more risky, settle it so that it has ivory+horse in the first ring - capitals 2nd borderpop will enable the corn.

    Gold should have priority, too, it will enhance your research significantly.

    Southern horse will require fishing, i don't see time to squeeze that in that early - a backfiller city.

    Rice in the west should be claimed rather soon, it's one of the best spots around.

    2. Techs

    Two warmongers around and the only strategic resource in rather unfavourable positions leads to Archery in my book, that way you can settle the cities as you please. Commerce is an issue here, but to me it seems harder to claim land than to get the research going - the cap has some cottage potential and there's gold around, plus alot of rivertiles. With CHA+Gold you should be able to work alot cottages if you need to.

    BW has low priority, there are no forrests and little food, no chopping and whipping. Writing should be beelined asap, with an AI near you'll get traderoutes helping your research quite a bit.

    For me: Agg->AH->Wheel-> Arch->Pot->Writ, Mining in between dependant on when you plan to settle the gold

    3. Opening Strategy

    HA rush seems tempting, and i guess it'll work on monarch. On IMM/Deity i wouldn't consider it at all:

    a) both targets have a rather high unitbuildprob
    b) nothing to speed up the build of the HAs, little food and no forrests, little early production overall
    c) You attack one, the other will backstab almost for certain
    d) Both targets have UUs that'll give your HAs a HARD time. Normally you won't face too much spears as a defense and axes/swords are a small issue, but here you'll face either Phalanx or Praets, both slaughering HAs in and outside cities.

    Oracle is tempting, especially on Monarch, but it would slow down your opening significantly. Good land is rare here, you'll want to do anything to claim as much of it as possible. OTOH you could use a fast slingshot to Alpha to bribe the warmongers onto each other, but i think that should be possible with a quick Alpha beeline by self researching it aswell. Both of them are rather uncommon for early Alpha, so this should work most of the times.

    4. Further techs and gameplan

    There's not a single good GP farm around, Great Lib has high priority especially with marble. Maintaining a techlead should enable you to bribe the warmongers on someone else as often as possible, and if they decide to attack at least buy yourself out. Get the best spots very soon, but after that stay small and get Liberalism ASAP. Cap is good enough for Bureaucracy, cottage it up and farm all the other cities so you have enough food for whipping when you can use cuirassiers. Whip an army and smack the warmongers, they should be backward by then.

    Alternativly, you could go for culture with marble and two strong cottage cities, but as there's a abundance of GP farms you'll have to build many wonders (and actually get them) to enhance your GPP towards artists. With two warmongers around i wouldn't recommend that path.
     

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