Monarchy - Does it need to be changed?

[ChocolateShake]

I was thinking about governments recently, and one thing that stood out to me is how I sometimes don't think about switching from the classical governments to anything but Merchant Republic, unless I'm really in need of the 6-card government policy boost for castles.

Does Monarchy need to be reviewed? It gives:

• 3 military cards, only 1 of each for the remaining types
• +1 housing for each level of wall - I don't find myself building walls usually
• +50% influence points
• +50% production towards defensive buildings

Both Theocracy and Merchant Republic seem far better in comparison. There are probably fun plays to go for with walls and Tamar, or with influence points and city states (looks like Tamar would like it quite a bit).

I think it's in need of tweaking. Is it just my play style?

 

[UWHabs]

Definitely needs tweaking. It's not as bad as it used to be - there are more military policy cards that are usable, and especially if you are starting to crank out mid-game troops, it can be nice to run those policy cards.

But the biggest problems are as you said - not building walls means you lose half the bonuses of it, and it can be annoying to switch from classical republic to Monarchy and lose econ+wc slots. Perhaps it would be better balanced as 2/1/1/2 (2 military and 2 WC), since then you would have a little more freedom in what to run. Or if it gave +1 housing and +1 amenity per walls, or even something like "cities gain +5% to all yields per level of walls" or something like that, would make me consider it as a nice temporary measure as the first T2 government, to get there quick, build up my wall infrastructure, and get the T2 government building down early.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Definitely needs a buff. I never use it. I usually unlock it first since it's earlier in the civics tree but stay in one of the first 3 governments until I get theocracy or merchant republic

 

[Gloompy]

In my current game I need Monarchy for the +2 Garrison Loyalty card cause my citizens are stupid idiots.

 

[Tech Osen]

Needs something. I'm an avid wall builder and I still go for merchant republic pretty much every time.

 

[King of Prussia]

I enjoy Monarchy, even if i eventually move on to another government. i tend to get it around the time i get mercenaries, which means i am mass upgrading my army(mainly archers). With all the bonuses, especially with the WC, you can build walls pretty quickly. It leaves room for another card for loyalty boost, maintenance or making troops faster.

 

[Kibikus]

I also agree that it probably needs a little tweak. I honestly think it's the 3 military policy slots that kill it.

In my last game I was going for a Diplo victory as Canada. I wanted to use Monarchy to take advantage of the extra influence and take control of city-states for extra favor. But since I was doing a peaceful game, I really didn't need 3 military policies, so I eventually switched to Merchant Republic.
I don't even mind the housing from walls, I tend to build at least 1-2 levels of walls, especially in my border cities.

I think switching one of the military slots to wildcard (extra flexibility for peaceful times) would go a long way to make it more appealing. Or, if Firaxis thinks that's too much, even switching it to a diplomatic slot would be ok, it would synergize with the bonus influence for city-states.

 

[Tech Osen]

I don't even mind the housing from walls, I tend to build at least 1-2 levels of walls, especially in my border cities.

I find the housing annoying because you loose them when you switch to another gov.

 

[Victoria]

Remember when you have faster moving builders with monumentality? You go up that hill and dig that hole in 1 turn.
This does speed your game up.
The logistics card is red and gives not only your builders but everything in your borders +1 move including troops in a newly taken city which really helps move your infantry and towers.
Logistics is a highly underrated card. The raid card is also very useful as in the extra wall shooty card.

Monarchy has some great niche benefits and merchant republic just gives you moar gold! We have too much of the stuff anyway. Monarchy gives envoy points and with the +2 envoys points card can ramp up things, and envoys are really important. So while you are all getting more gold in merchant the AI is in monarchy ramping up envoys.

I think it is just fine, more for the warriors than the traders but even peacefully is good.

 

[Abaxial]

I see monarchy as a stopping-off point towards a more sophisticated form of government. You just aren't supposed to stay in monarchy for longer than necessary. Perhaps what is needed is an upgrade to constitutional monarchy?

 

[Kibikus]

I find the housing annoying because you loose them when you switch to another gov.

If Monarchy was good enough so that you can skip MR and Theocracy and go directly to T3 governments, by that time you would have unlocked sewers, neighbourhoods and various other ways to get housing, so it's not going to be an issue imo.

Remember when you have faster moving builders with monumentality? You go up that hill and dig that hole in 1 turn.
This does speed your game up.
The logistics card is red and gives not only your builders but everything in your borders +1 move including troops in a newly taken city which really helps move your infantry and towers.
Logistics is a highly underrated card. The raid card is also very useful as in the extra wall shooty card.

Monarchy has some great niche benefits and merchant republic just gives you moar gold! We have too much of the stuff anyway. Monarchy gives envoy points and with the +2 envoys points card can ramp up things, and envoys are really important. So while you are all getting more gold in merchant the AI is in monarchy ramping up envoys.

I think it is just fine, more for the warriors than the traders but even peacefully is good.

Merchant republic also gives you bonus production towards districts.

As I said above, I don't have a problem with the monarchy bonuses compared to the other T2 governments, but with the policy cards slots. Yes, you can possibly find something to put in the military slots that could help you a little bit, but then you only have 3 slots to fit policies like Natural Philosophy, Rationalism, Triangular trade, Serfdom, Charismatic leader, Merchant Confederation, Wisselbanken, which are much more powerful.

And if the argument is that Monarchy is not for peaceful empires, then why does it have bonuses to housing and envoys? Why not give it some more options with diplomacy?
Fascism is pretty much a military-only focused government, but at least you know what you are going to use it for.

By the way, in a similar vein, I find the Foreign Ministry GP building super niche (as in 1 or 2 civs can realistically use it consistently). They could easily add some kind of diplomatic bonus, like favor, to compete with the other two T2 buildings.

 

[ezysquire]

Yip the military card slots are a bit of a bummer. Perhaps they just need some new military cards though to make Monarchy a better choice. District hammer discount anyone? Yes, please.

 

[MrRadar]

I sometimes go for Monarchy before MR, for mass production of walls with Limes, and if you're lucky to get WC vote for accelerated production of buildings in the city centre around the same period, walls will be up in no time. Apart from what has been already said here, now that there are Retinues counterpart to Professional Army, you have just enough slots for both for simultaneous mass upgrade. If I stay longer in Monarchy, I also may slot in Retainers - that may be enough to push my cities into ecstatic.

I think it is fine as is, the origins of Monarchy lies in military might, so numerous military cards are justified, at least from the start.

But I see a possibility of tweaking Monarchy by letting the Monarch do as he or she pleases, to some extent. Now well-known Axiom of divinity provides for that

So under Monarchy you could opt to use wildcards instead of military cards at a cost of loyalty.
1 red card into a WC: -7 loyalty in all cities. Lesser lords will respect Monarch's wishes, but if you reduce military control, your grip on them is not so tight anymore.
2 red cards into 2 WC: - 17 loyalty in all cities.
3 red cards into 3 WC: - 30 loyalty in all cities. The lords are just plain fed up with Monarch's whims, and what was the base of his power again? Some lady in a pond? I see...

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The lords are just plain fed up with Monarch's whims, and what was the base of his power again? Some lady in a pond? I see...

The real question of legitimacy doesn't arise because it came from a lady in a pond, it comes when we can't agree on which lady, or which pond.

 

[MrRadar]

The real question of legitimacy doesn't arise because it came from a lady in a pond, it comes when we can't agree on which lady, or which pond.

Ha, exactly! Having witnessed what the King thinks he's entitled to, the lords would be off to visit ponds and ladies of their own choosing

 

[leandrombraz]

I like to adopt Monarchy before I go to Merchant Republic for the housing. I usually get the Monarch legacy card to use it later, it's a good source of housing in mid game.

I think every government that have too much military slots should be changed. Most military policies are the kind of policy that you adopt for some turns then swap to something more... Conscription, you swap to Conscription. They just don't need to stick around, so you rarely need that much military slots. Any government with more military slot than the others is at an disadvantage and the only reason to adopt them is if you really want the bonus they give. They should all lose one military slot and get something else.

 

[UWHabs]

Remember when you have faster moving builders with monumentality? You go up that hill and dig that hole in 1 turn.
This does speed your game up.
The logistics card is red and gives not only your builders but everything in your borders +1 move including troops in a newly taken city which really helps move your infantry and towers.
Logistics is a highly underrated card. The raid card is also very useful as in the extra wall shooty card.

Monarchy has some great niche benefits and merchant republic just gives you moar gold! We have too much of the stuff anyway. Monarchy gives envoy points and with the +2 envoys points card can ramp up things, and envoys are really important. So while you are all getting more gold in merchant the AI is in monarchy ramping up envoys.

I think it is just fine, more for the warriors than the traders but even peacefully is good.

I agree that Logistics is fine as a card. And I can find use from 3 military cards. Generally speaking, it would be Logistics, whichever one saves maintenance on units, plus one of raid (if warring), the production bonus for encampments/buildings, or one of the unit production bonuses. Not to mention the quick cheaper unit upgrade cards when you need them.

The problem is those cards are, generally speaking, still worse than the other cards you can run. Saving 1 per turn on each unit is nice, that's usually 10-15 gpt that I can save. But by that point, I'm probably at 15-20 envoys in city-states, so having an extra green slot is nice. Or even when you think of it, it would often be better to run a +2 great scientist per turn, since that's not a horrible return on gold->GPP. Or maybe I want to run both campus adjacency and holy site adjacency, or one of the other adjacency cards, or the oligarch/classic republic legacy cards.

I mean, the legacy bonuses for the other T2 governments aren't huge either. A little bonus gold in cities with a governor is worse than the envoy points bonus, but Monarchy is just too heavy towards the military slots that I find it constricts my civ too much to want to run it for more than a short stretch.

 

[Sostratus]

I think switching one of the military slots to wildcard (extra flexibility for peaceful times) would go a long way to make it more appealing. Or, if Firaxis thinks that's too much, even switching it to a diplomatic slot would be ok, it would synergize with the bonus influence for city-states.

My thoughts exactly since vanilla.

As I said above, I don't have a problem with the monarchy bonuses compared to the other T2 governments, but with the policy cards slots. Yes, you can possibly find something to put in the military slots that could help you a little bit, but then you only have 3 slots to fit policies like Natural Philosophy, Rationalism, Triangular trade, Serfdom, Charismatic leader, Merchant Confederation, Wisselbanken, which are much more powerful.

The problem isn't only that monarchy has too many red cards - it's that merchant republic for unknown reasons has two wildcards on top of the two eco cards. So Merchant Republic can also run 3 red cards if they want to. IMO whichever way you go switching a monarchy red slot to green or wild, you also need to move a merchant wild card slot to something else. The ability to run 4 eco cards or 3 red cards is just way too freaking good. I consider theocracy to be the most balanced govt in the game. It's got a useful niche its bonuses are directed towards that isn't too specific, and its card layout helps you take advantage of that but also do other things if need be.

I mean, the legacy bonuses for the other T2 governments aren't huge either. A little bonus gold in cities with a governor is worse than the envoy points bonus, but Monarchy is just too heavy towards the military slots that I find it constricts my civ too much to want to run it for more than a short stretch.

I think people don't always grasp how powerful economic cards are. The government bonuses themselves are absolutely meaningless compared to double science from buildings or what have you. The problem with red card isn't that there aren't some powerful ones, it's just that once you've slotted the 2-3 you need in your situation, red card#4 ends up being a weaker, bordering on marginal picks. Eco cards don't have nearly the same roll off in utility.
I actually think fascism could do with having a red converted to a wild and democracy should lose a wild for a diplo.

 

[Stilgar08]

It comes a tad earlier than Merchant Republic and Theocraty though - at least how I play the civics-tree most of the time. I tend to not delay my move to the next lvl government - And as @Victoria said: It HAS its benefits and niche purposes. Not everything needs to be on equal grounds here - that goes for governments too and monarchies fighting prolonged wars back in the days truly was a thing. So it sort of fits thematically too IMO.
Anybody not warmongering ever used fascism? I never did AFAIR but have used monarchy now and then...

And concerning the power of red cards: Well that depends on the situation, I'd say. Produce navals, troups, defense buildings, encampments, save money on maintenance or get utterly needed resources might come in handy, too and beat +100% adjacency for harbors not so seldeom in my book! ;p

 

[mitsho]

I never liked that the red cards are so use em and switch em. Production bonuses are short term, they mean that you should build units and then use them. But the only need for them is on the aggressive side since the AI is no threat. Also it takes up too much time to switch to a defensive red card when surprise attacked. So the passively working economic cards are much better.

I'd wanted different levels of cards, passively working ones that work ok and ones you have to use actively that are better. There are none of the first ones making red card slots inherently worse.

So, not sure if monarchy needs a change, red cards do