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Monarchy/Happiness when you don't have mids

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by earthy, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    So I often find myself in a situation where building mids is impractical, and I don't have any fur, gold, ivory, gems, or other easily attainable early happiness resources. This makes happiness a struggle early on, and really limits my civ until I can get trade networks established and trade health resources for happiness.

    It seems like monarchy is a decent solution in these scenarios, but what's the best way to get there, and how early is it worth going for? AI's seem to love this tech so it's not that hard to trade for it, but what kind of trades are we making to get there? I've found I often trade alpha around for IW+the early religious techs, and then end up trading aesthetic/maybe literature for monarchy while i'm on the way to music. Is this the best approach or are there other trades you guys try for to get monarchy?

    And what happens when we're in isolation or have bad trading partners? It feels like monarchy would be hugely beneficial in those spots, but is it worth delaying astro while in isolation, or other techs when you have bad trading partners? Does it still have enough value to justify self-teching up the religious path to get it? If it does, what techs do you think are still more important and should be grabbed before prioritizing monarchy?
     
    gavenkoa likes this.
  2. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    When there are no happy resis at all, the happy cap is exploding and the biggest cities have still enough health, then I would definitely go for monarchy, because at this point, it becomes an important economical tech. Also when I have good wine tiles, because that means +2 happiness for my cities.
    Generally spoken, I rate currency higher because it gives an unchangeable 2. TR, while a higher population (based on HR) also increases upkeep. I can't tell for good trades as I use to play No brokering or Always War. In the second scenario, monarchy makes a lot more sense as FEUD will be needed too. True, it's very painful to go down the whole religious path in isolation, let's hope there is at least one resource that gives +1 happ. via market/forge. Because currency and MC have bigger priority.
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Difficult to say, but it sounds to me that you are trying to grow cities too large too soon.
    It's extremly limiting to be stuck at 5 happines in capital and 4 in other cities, but if you just manage to get like 2 happines resources (gold/silver/gems/ivory/fur) or if you are cha, or something else, and you can get up to 7 in capital and 6 in other cities, you are basically set for a long time.
    Sure, every little bit help, but up at 6 happines you can work the cities best tiles and start to run 2 scientists.

    It's not untill you are approaching CS for burocracy, that you really start to need alot of happines.
     
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Cut off or trade metals and build warriors ..or don't tech Hunting
     
  5. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    that works only when he already got monarchy, he was asking how to get there in the best manner though
     
  6. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Only on deity you need (or should) think about those decisions, on any other diff do what you enjoy :)
    Most of those are ~50/50, and you will do fine as long as you keep following 1 path.

    For Iso, we had a nice thread.
    If you have at least 1 city that is worth growing big (loads of rivers i.e.), you probably benefit from HR.
    But overall anything works if you keep following your plans, can also split those rivers into more cities.
     
  7. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Prince

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    I've played several games where the happiness crunch lasts until Calendar or even later. I actually just usually end up sidestepping the problem by running scientists (+4 food can run 2 with a Library at size 3 or 4, no problem) and not growing further, or by whipping away the extra population. Whipping works pretty well when you're doing an earlier attack too since it puts that whipping into units you need anyway. This helps stockpile GS for later as well, so you end up going kinda in another direction at the same time and aren't just focusing on boosting overall raw commerce.

    Expanding more can be a sort-of stop gap to it too. Without the happiness to grow much higher than the default cap, one or two powerful cottage centers isn't as feasible. Settling out a couple more cities to work fewer cottages each will still increase your raw commerce in the same way but the expenses come up along with it, so there's a limit to it. Still, it works well in those situations especially if you also have to food to run Scientists to get up to Currency and start building Wealth to counter the extra maintenance (being ORG helps too).
     
  8. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @ArchGhost That's usually the approach i'll take, but sometimes it doesn't feel right. As an example, let's say I have a city with two FP and some corn. At size four I can work two FP cottages and run 2 scientists, but then I'm not working my best tile, the corn. It's not a big deal if I can settle another city and let the new city take the corn, but that's not always possible. There's also scenarios where my nearest neighbour is 10+ tiles away through dense jungle and an early attack isn't really feasible. So what exactly do I whip when I already have a granary/library, war isn't a good option, and my other cities are able to pump out sufficient settlers/workers?
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    If you identify such a situation early on, you can either postpone teching pottery and/or BW, or you can prioritize other builds prior to granary and refrain from whipping.

    In a situation with FP cottages and corn, I almost always work the corn (or any high-yield tile) anyway and stagnate building settlers/workers instead.
    If that isn't possible at all, you can also consider growing as high into unhappines as you are capable of, and then stagnate on a settler/worker. Those angry citizens are stockpiled hammers that can be useful later on.
     
  10. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    On emperor or below the best way to get to monarchy ASAP might honestly be just to Oracle it. You'll need myst->priesthood anyways to get there, and worse case scenario someone building it gets you enough failgold to tech to monarchy regardless.

    On deity just trade for it with aesth, at least one AI is bound to get it by 800-ish BC which is when you normally get aesth.
     
  11. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    You can also slowbuild a barracks (do NOT whip to completion) to prepare for an offensive war that's coming sooner or later.
     
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  12. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Definitely. In my early prince/monarch games, I did oracle Monarchy lots of times. AI players need to long to get there. Also you can easily support more units as the city upkeep is lower, so happiness-wise, HR is more valuable than a religion.
     

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