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Mongolia Rapes Deity

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by biohazard72, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Since they made Cavs upgrade to Tanks, Mongolia has entered God Tier for warmongering. Nobody is even remotely close IMO. Here's why:

    1. Keshiks can shoot and retreat, allowing casualty-free wars if you manage your positioning well. Very few other civs can war this way.
    2. 5 movement units are great for scouting too. This helps your melee and siege units live longer. Furthermore, the swarming nature of Keshik attacks often serves to create openings for your melee/siege.
    3. Because it's Deity, you fight a lot of units and strong cities, leading to massive leveling of all your units. This means supersoldiers.
    4. The Logistics promotion, as well as all of the Accuracy/Barrage promotions, transfer over to Tanks and work. So after you war successfully with Keshiks, you can immediately steamroll the continent with super Tanks.

    My current game I grabbed Fountain of Youth (from a killed city-state) and went to warmongering. It definitely helps but is by no means necessary (just trade luxuries for luxuries to keep happy, and slow down your attack slightly. You'll be able to afford it with all the city-capture cash, and the healing bonus isn't that strong until Tanks because Keshiks don't take damage often). Here are my units, as I sweep the map:

    4 Tanks with minimum Logistics, Accuracy I,II,III, March. These heal 4 per turn even in enemy territory if next to a Khan. Very overpowered. Note: 1 of these also has Shock I,II and two more have Shock I. That's roughly a 100% open terrain bonus for the former. HUGE. Another has Siege.

    3 Tanks with minimum Logistics, Accuracy I,II,II. These were from my second, defensive war. I fully milked XP from bombarding and safely retreating from a powerful city. Note: 1 of these has Shock I now.

    1 Mechanized Infantry with Shock I,II,II, March, Blitz, Siege. He hasn't seen much use since Tanks went into effect, but the 4 heal per turn in enemy territory (Khan + March + FoY) was fully abused as a Longswordsman/Rifleman. I love you Blitzy.

    1 Artillery with Accuracy I,II,III. 1 Artillery with Accuracy I,II. I stopped using the former offensively about halfway through my first war, and the second was for defense.

    I also have made 5 Khans so far and captured Chichen Itza. Yeah. And all this in a game where I never once pushed a military tech.

    To sum it up:

    Keshiks -> supersoldiers -> rape

    ... this is the first Deity game where I'm seriously considering an overseas invasion in order to win by Domination, even though all overseas civs have their capitals. With 7 super Modern Armours though (and a slight tech lead), who can stop me? The only thing that stops me is unhappiness... but that can be rectified. By fire.
     
  2. i_imperator

    i_imperator Imperator

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    Nice, gotta try playing as the monglos then... Dose the honour path work well with this strategy then, despite being nerfed?
     
  3. GfxJG

    GfxJG Warlord

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    Denmark
    I haven't really tried Mongols yet... But I might, after reading this.
     
  4. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    I've found that with Mongols you can still horseman rush early on and take cities easily if there are a few accessible spaces next to the city.

    Healing rate of the khan helps counter the increased city heal rates.
     
  5. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Honor isn't really necessary. Grabbing the 1.5x XP promotion requires 3 policies - you'll only grab one or two pre-Renaissance if you ignore culture. Tradition to grow a large capital seems good, then specialist economy policies (Freedom/Civil Society/Rationalism/Secularism). Happiness seems to be more of a constraint than anything.

    But hey, grabbing Honor for the 1.5x XP wouldn't be a horrible choice. Super-duper soldiers!
     
  6. mondry

    mondry Chieftain

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    Yeah I'm playing an immortal game now with tradition and honor and my keshiks are already like lvl 8-9 early on. I can say that happiness is definitely holding me back but I have so much money from warmongering that I just bought each CS that has a luxury I don't for some burst happiness. When you literally have like a 500 to 1 kill death ratio though you can turn some of that production into theater's. (I lost a horseman cause the 1 hp city killed him from full health LOL)

    I'm actually tempted to go further into honor and get the +1 happy for garrison cities but then I'd have to buy scouts for all of them or something. I do have some other concerns though being that my science really sucks and I'm starting to see infantry.

    One question about when you finally upgrade the keshiks to calvary and then tanks, are the upgrades like "indirect" "range" and what not just useless when they go back to "melee"? I'm assuming the seige / rough / open terrain types will convert, at least I hope so!
     
  7. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Indirect, range... any promotion that specifically affects aspects of the ranged game doesn't carry over. I make sure that every promotion I grab carries over, so unfortunately this means no +1 range and no indirect fire. When you grab Accuracy/Barrage III, Logistics, and March, start grabbing other useful attack bonuses like Siege or Accuracy/Barrage.

    You might want to grab Freedom if you have a specialist slot everywhere - it's equivalent to a garrisoned unit under the Honor policy, without paying huge upkeep costs.
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Strictly speaking, freedom is even better. People are generally running specs already for the powerful GPP and decent science effects. People do not generally station military all over their cities w/o the honor policy because there's very minimal incentive to do so w/o the SP, and even with it you're eating a lot of expense on TOP of burning that culture in said SP.

    Military :) is pretty terrible. I wish they gave it some help when they nerfed the bejeezus out of the rest of honor.
     
  9. mondry

    mondry Chieftain

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    Yeah, so I got that right anyway, I did have to take indirect as a spur of the moment type thing when i needed 2 more hits on a forest surrounded city on one of them but otherwise did a decent job skipping the ranged only ones.

    Right, no real reason to station military unless you feel an attack coming on or something without the sp, I did happen to take it as an impulse to "how can I fix my happy immediately" and of course now am right with you guys that something else would have been better. Especially since I forgot that at some point scouts go obsolete so now I have to station lancers in my new cities :lol:

    As you guys can probably tell this is only my 8th or 9th game all together so I'm still learning on the job, figured it was worth a try.

    That's what I find intriguing about this game though, try something out, maybe it isn't ideal or doesn't work right and make it better next game, refine my play, etc.

    anyway... it looks like I can still win this one easily despite all of my mistakes / newbiness as long as a UN doesn't pop up any time soon. Kinda funny since I haven't really come close to an immortal win with any other civ's yet. But that's next on the agenda I suppose!
     
  10. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    The first policy in Freedom is the best way to fix a happy problem immediately, because all it takes is 1 specialist in each city to give reduce unhappiness by 1 per city. The reason this is the best way is unemployed citizens count as specialist, so even if the city has no buildings with a specialist slot, you can at least make one unemployed citizen. Unemployed citizens also provide 1 :c5production:. Doing this works out to be equal to stationing a unit in each city with the honor policy without the increased military upkeep cost and you don't have to blow your cash buying nor waste turns building troops to station in the cities.

    If you find you need to further reduce your unhappiness problem, add more specialists in your larger cities. Just keep in mind that you have to have an odd number of specialist for each -1:c5unhappy:.

    If you have puppets, they do run specialists even though you can't see them. So they'll automatically help with the unhappiness once you take the first Freedom policy.
     
  11. mondry

    mondry Chieftain

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    Oh nice, pretty funny that an unemployed citizen counts, I was working my way to planned economy but that seems like the way I'll have to go now as china just gave me 8 little dump cities putting me at -52 :mad:in a peace treaty. Since then I've worked some magic just to get back to +5 (razing, trading, CS's, purchasing) but I'm at my limit and will lose a bunch when I actually move my army. Need to get back to Mongolian smash! Feel like my promoted tanks could probably just go win the game now.

    I do have a lot of puppets, actually every thing but initial first 4 are puppets (got boxed in by monty and china right away and didn't feel like razing / resettling)
     
  12. ClarenceSeedorf

    ClarenceSeedorf Chieftain

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    Nothing can stop you. You are beating Deity. Congrats, you are a very good civ player.:)
     
  13. hellboy909

    hellboy909 Chieftain

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    You said "rape" twice.
     
  14. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Haha, I actually wussed out on the overseas invasion when some overseas civs started finishing the Manhattan Project. They all hated me (Guarded or Hostile) and one threatened me with nuclear weapons. I just decided to win by tech (251 turns). Funny thing - 5 of my 6 spaceship part cities weren't my own (they were taken capitals and one other large city).

    Final state of my army post-conquest (note: most are obsolete units because I had no need to upgrade them):

    1 Tank with Logistics, Accuracy I,II,III
    2 Tanks with Logistics, Accuracy I,II,III, Shock I
    3 Tanks with Logistics, March, Accuracy I,II,III, Shock I,II,III (try taking these on in open terrain!)
    1 Tank with Logistics, March, Accuracy I,II,III, Shock I,II,III, Siege
    1 Mechanized Infantry (Blitzy!) with Blitz, March, Shock I,II,III, Drill I,II, Siege (this guy was single-handedly capturing cities, then healing completely the next turn thanks to March, Khans and FoY).
    1 Artillery with Accuracy I,II,III
    1 Artillery with Logistics, Accuracy I,II,III

    Running a fast, continent-sweeping assault really wreaks havoc with your happiness (especially if you refuse to burn down a city! I wanted that continent and all of its spoils). I was rich though. I found myself often burning puppets with Colosseums to size 4 then buying Courthouses to get a few happiness points. I traded for every available luxury (which, to my chagrin, were not available for trade 30 turns later, because I became hated). I ran 3 specialists and 1 4F tile in most of my cities (which wasn't bad for production due to Statue of Liberty). Still, I walked a fine line - several times, I'd begin a turn at -20 unhappiness or lower and I'd be hard-pressed to get it to above -20, but I always made it work. Colosseums finished, I captured another luxury and Notre Dame, I built the Eiffel Tower... eventually I ended up in positive happiness (+13, after consolidating my empire). This did get eaten by puppet growth, but it was enough to finish the game with.

    An amusing note: I built culture buildings after Markets and Banks when there was nothing that attractive to build. My culture shot up from around 40 to 420 (teehee) culture per turn, grabbing me two more quick policies (Order and Civil Society) with another 13 turns away. This leads me to believe that where gold output is low but production is high, going for culture buildings after Public Schools (or possibly in lieu of them in smaller cities) is probably more valuable than gold buildings, if it means getting a few more good policies up in a timeframe that they can make a difference.

    Your point being?
     
  15. hellboy909

    hellboy909 Chieftain

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    Sombody's never seen Blazing Saddles...
     
  16. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Haha no I haven't. I assumed you were offended at my usage of the term "rape."

    BTW what I posted here is pretty much correct, although the Accuracy and Barrage promotions actually do not transfer over. It shows them in the mouseover tool when you attack in the flatlands, but the bonus is not actually provided.

    That said, Tanks with Logistics, March, and Siege are still well worth the effort of all that warmongering.
     
  17. tylor

    tylor Warlord

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    Civ V deity is easier than Civ IV Noble, I think.
     
  18. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    With the current patches, it is actually quite difficult. Even completely focusing on tech buildings and signing every RA possible, you won't get to first in tech until possibly very late game, if at all.
     
  19. Vo01985

    Vo01985 Warlord

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    I am playing an epic immortal game right now as the Mongols and I am still using keshiks even though montezuma is using nuclear weapons. I have 4 level10+ keshiks and they can still compete against cities. They are absolutely nuts. I was wrecking havoc too when I beelined to cavalry at the start and capturing every city I could but was also running in the happiness wall... But yeah, my next game will probably be a standard deity game as the mongols, keshiks are really really powerful.
     
  20. Carl5872

    Carl5872 Prince

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    I know this is unrelated, but he mentioned fountain of youth, which I/ve never seen. Do you have to turn it on, (i think the new patch auto downloaded). It may be I just havent played enough games yet, but I just want to make sure.
     

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