Monopolies balance questions

[Zudegia]

Hey guys,

We've been playing with CBP for a while now in multiplayer (4 players, no AI, strategic balance + uranium) and noticed that some monopolies are very unbalanced, for example: whales. You get 10% science and 1 science per spot is just ridiculous in the beginning. Also everyone always seems to get one or two monopolies which isn't really necessary either in my opinion. They should be harder to obtain or be able to put them off altogether.

Thoughts?

 

[bigcat88]

If you play specific map with specific options, better to adjust monopolies manually.

Edit this file before creating modpack:
(6a) Community Balance Overhaul - Compatibility Files (EUI)\MoreLuxuries\MoreLuxuries.sql
or this:
(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Terrain\ResourceChanges.sql

 

[Omen of Peace]

Most map scripts do indeed grant one monopoly to a player. VP is largely balanced around that assumption (e.g. you need a monopoly to found a Corporation).

 

[Zudegia]

Most map scripts do indeed grant one monopoly to a player. VP is largely balanced around that assumption (e.g. you need a monopoly to found a Corporation).

Hmm okay, well we just have to change the values a bit. At least take science out, seems to be the easy way

 

[neo_arcadia]

Remember that to obtain the monopoly status you need effort, especially for sea luxuries. It's not an instant monopoly except when the resource itself is like, two or three tiles in non-city state territory. You can see the amount of luxury tiles in the corporations section but you need to improve one tile first before knowing how many of that luxury tiles are present on the map. Or.. yeah just take the science out. Easy.

 

[CrabHelmet]

The sea-based Monopolies are all rather powerful because they're normally much harder to connect. They end up being a lot more scattered than land-based ones most of the time.

 

[Zudegia]

Thanks for your input guys. If anyone knows how can I modify how many of the same resource can be in a X times Y area, that'd be great! Would modify it myself that nobody gets a monopoly easy. Even better if I can make an exception for Venice.

Sea resources are usually much harder to link which would be fine but after three games in a row where one player got 3-4 whales just on his capital, we didn't want that happening again

 

[CrabHelmet]

Which map generator are you using? 4 Whales on the capital is absolutely exceptional, I've basically never seen that.

 

[wistak]

Legendary start?

 

[Zudegia]

HellBlazers Map Script V4
Small map, usually Pangaea
Legendary Start - Strat Balance + Uranium

I'm sorry, it was three whales and one fish straight away. Even now I tried just Strategic balance with England and out of three games:

1. Two pearls, one crab (on the first few tiles, just restarting all the time)
2. Three crabs
3. aaand third one in the pic

This was literally the first three games I randomed. Don't really think that's balanced to move one spot and you get 3 science + 10% straight up pretty much.

 

[Zudegia]

Hahah tried fourth game with standard resources aaand

That's great

 

[CrabHelmet]

You're using Legendary Start. Of course there's lots of Whales by your Capital. Legendary Start is designed to give you a massive concentration of Luxuries on your spawn location. Turn that off and the problem will be fixed.

I'm generating Pangaea England maps now on Standard size and I'm not seeing it. It might also be a product of Small maps - there's less room to spread them out. If it still bugs you, go up one map size.

 

[Zudegia]

Thought of that too but standard or strategic balance both gave the same result as seen in the pictures. Ahaa that might actually be it, i'll try. Thank you!

 

[Zudegia]

HellBlazers Map Script V4
Standard size, Pangaea
Standard resources

Of four games, this happened twice. The first time I had to move the settler two turns to get three whales but still.

This seems to be a problem of the HB Map Script. Disabling that gives mostly land resources and from a larger pool. So that is what we have to use in the future. Thanks for trying guys

 

[CrabHelmet]

Glad you've fixed it.

For what it's worth, I don't actually think Whales are as strong as they look anyway. Yes, they give Science, but that means you had to go Trapping -> (Pottery) -> Fishing, and spend a lot of Production on Fishing Boats. Meanwhile, in the same time, someone else can go Animal Husbandry -> (Pottery) -> Wheel -> Military Theory, and by the time you've got your Monopoly, they're on your doorstep with Horsemen and you just lost the game.

IMO, one of either Military Theory or Bronze-Working has to come inside your first 4 techs in a multiplayer game, unless you got an isolated start or have an early UU like the Aztec or Celts. Whales need the Science because they drag you away from the strongest part of the tech tree.

 

[Owlbebach]

HellBlazers Map Script V4
Small map, usually Pangaea
Legendary Start - Strat Balance + Uranium

I'm pretty sure HellBlazers Map Script does not work with Vox Populi

(Well it of course does, but it generates maps that are imbalanced - it is designed for a different game. And if i'm not mistaken - it can't generate maps with resources that were introduced in VP)

EDIT: ah i see you found it out yourself. Also Whales are good, but not OP, 10% science is very low for the first half of the game, also researching Fishing early on hurts you A LOT. On a side note - how is your MP working? How many desyncs?

Btw, if anyone can adjust HellBlazers script to work with VP it would be awesome. This mapscript is VERY good

 

[Zudegia]

Glad you've fixed it.

For what it's worth, I don't actually think Whales are as strong as they look anyway. Yes, they give Science, but that means you had to go Trapping -> (Pottery) -> Fishing, and spend a lot of Production on Fishing Boats. Meanwhile, in the same time, someone else can go Animal Husbandry -> (Pottery) -> Wheel -> Military Theory, and by the time you've got your Monopoly, they're on your doorstep with Horsemen and you just lost the game.

IMO, one of either Military Theory or Bronze-Working has to come inside your first 4 techs in a multiplayer game, unless you got an isolated start or have an early UU like the Aztec or Celts. Whales need the Science because they drag you away from the strongest part of the tech tree.

CrabHelmet: You are absolutely correct normally but as we play with friends only, it's rare to see a rush. I personally almost always risk teching a bit in the start anyway. The pathfinder "usually" spots danger in time for me to buy enough spearmen/archers to stop losing. Horsedude takes a risk as if he does not win quickly, someone else might be teching and very hard to catch then anymore

Owlbebach: Heck, no wonder we haven't seen most of the new stuff. Should've done my homework. Are there any multiplayer-VP maps I should test?

I agree with 10% not being that good in the beginning. I'm okay with whales if they're just a bit harder to get, not 3 on your capital immediately.

Multiplayer is working actually good! Normal barbarians, no AI, normal amount of city-states, no events at all. We have a visual bug/error reports only once every 10-15 games (seems some civ does it but we dont know which one) and crashed only twice (second time permanently)

Desyncs are probably when the loading screen comes on? We get those, I'd say every 5 to 30 turns but it's okay as everyone has a fast PC and lives close by Without barbarians I'd guess it'd work perfect. Newest beta version always.

 

[Owlbebach]

Are there any multiplayer-VP maps I should test?

I think simple Pangea is the best. Maybe even Oval. Those two are really good when it comes to balance.

Desyncs are probably when the loading screen comes on? We get those, I'd say every 5 to 30 turns but it's okay as everyone has a fast PC and lives close by Without barbarians I'd guess it'd work perfect. Newest beta version always.

Thats pretty good. Last time we tried it was literally every 5 turns and it was unplayable. What timezone do you live? I'd love to join but i'm quite far away of most people

 

[Zudegia]

I think simple Pangea is the best. Maybe even Oval. Those two are really good when it comes to balance.

Thats pretty good. Last time we tried it was literally every 5 turns and it was unplayable. What timezone do you live? I'd love to join but i'm quite far away of most people

It might've been that much too but it only took like seconds more than without it, it's okay. Sometimes units do backtrack but it's not so serious hahah.

If you're in Moscow, I'm probably one of the closest people you can find. Helsinki, Finland More players are always welcome. At some point, we might start playing for small sums of money (for example 5-10e per round) just to make it a bit more serious. Hit me a PM and we'll see how it works

 

[wistak]

I think simple Pangea is the best. Maybe even Oval. Those two are really good when it comes to balance.

What about civs with unical sea units?