I don't think Monty has the best start. His capital is just sick but no trading partners till Optics will put him behind the entire Old World who are trading techs. I think the best start on Earth 18 is China and it's not even that close. In fact from my experience in 8 or 9 out of 10 games I played, the most powerful AI is always Qin. His land is fantastic and he's part of the big trading block. Most times by the mid game defeating or vassaling Khan and Toku is a cakewalk because they fall behind in tech and by settling Korea, China, Indochina and a few islands, you become an absolute monster.
Monty 18 Civs, Controls entire N.Amer. 1290 BC strategy
- Thread starter King Younk
- Start date
I don't think Monty has the best start. His capital is just sick but no trading partners till Optics will put him behind the entire Old World who are trading techs. I think the best start on Earth 18 is China and it's not even that close. In fact from my experience in 8 or 9 out of 10 games I played, the most powerful AI is always Qin. His land is fantastic and he's part of the big trading block. Most times by the mid game defeating or vassaling Khan and Toku is a cakewalk because they fall behind in tech and by settling Korea, China, Indochina and a few islands, you become an absolute monster.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Why would you care about trade? By 1AD I will be far ahead from any of the top dozen starts. Even playing my favourite Incas I will be even by the time the Europeans come to visit.
Did you actually try playing this start? Yes, China is nice but so is North America. Look at the map I put up.
As for the question of AIs, why should that be even relevant? They always settle in place. The original Monty start is not bad but it is nothing like 2N. Then there's Spain. Isabella always plops her butt down and lives with one city until the end of time. I will move east to Barcelona, pump out a bunch of warriors and take out France. By that time I will have horsies and move on to Germany or Rome.
China is still better than Aztec in terms of start IMO. More good land to take and you are part of the trading block. But yes Monty might have the #2 best start overall.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
As I said earlier, Mongolia is manifestly better than China. Crappy start for sure. But you get to develop your own capital and then take out the Chinese AI. Double fun.
And I have no idea why you think trading is important. By the time alphabet appears, I will be far ahead from any decent start. Take Japan for example. Lay down a couple of cities in the home islands, then grab the gorgeous Seoul location and move on to kill the Chinese. No trade needed.
Fact remains the AI start with warriors all the way up to Deity on earth18 map. They only have 1 settler on deity. You can rush Americans with 6 warriors. Albeit it may be better to leave him alive long enough for him to develop some land. Otherwise you can worker steal from him on immortal. Same for mongolia and China
You can reach China/Japan by workboat or galley. No need to wait for optics.
Most of the European AI will be limited to 3-4 cities. It's the AI like Russia, Persia or China you need to watch. Let them develop long enough and they could become quite big.
Playing Japan or England is a major headache due to colonial expansion the minute you settle more than 2-3 cities on the mainland. You pretty much have to move your palace to Paris. Same with Japan. On games like this with HA you could be taking down 3-4 AI quite quickly.
It's an interesting huge map but broken in some respects.
China and GLH is interesting but ultimately when you quickly reach 10-12 cities it starts to kill your economy. On a map like this that could be really early.
You can reach China/Japan by workboat or galley. No need to wait for optics.
Most of the European AI will be limited to 3-4 cities. It's the AI like Russia, Persia or China you need to watch. Let them develop long enough and they could become quite big.
Playing Japan or England is a major headache due to colonial expansion the minute you settle more than 2-3 cities on the mainland. You pretty much have to move your palace to Paris. Same with Japan. On games like this with HA you could be taking down 3-4 AI quite quickly.
It's an interesting huge map but broken in some respects.
China and GLH is interesting but ultimately when you quickly reach 10-12 cities it starts to kill your economy. On a map like this that could be really early.
sylvanllewelyn
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I gave it another go, Aztecs emperor normal speed and
Spoiler :
Inspired by this thread, playing as Roosevelt. Settled right next to Monty on Spices. 3 Warrior rush and T24 done (was waiting for worker built). After that built almost all wonders (I'm builder! And wonders are great! And delaying important stuff makes game more interesting at Emperor without getting nervous about every detail) and settled 50 cities total. Including one in New Zealand (was little bit late for Sugar in Australia 
) at 500 AD without Astro (Colossus and Stonehenge can keep their bonus for veery long time) 
) at 500 AD without Astro (Colossus and Stonehenge can keep their bonus for veery long time) Warrior rushes feel cheesy which I know is my subjective opinion but I don't try them except in MP against humans where it's fair game. Maybe going in WB and giving every AI two Archers at the start would be a good solution.
It's not just trading. You also get discounts on techs that other AI's know. Plus it is very beneficial to trade with faraway civs. As Japan/China, you should be trading extensively with Europeans/Mali etc.
It's not just trading. You also get discounts on techs that other AI's know. Plus it is very beneficial to trade with faraway civs. As Japan/China, you should be trading extensively with Europeans/Mali etc.
sylvanllewelyn
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How do you move from the New World to the Old World without astronomy on this map?
Galley? Workboat? You clearly can't use ocean tiles. So you need to explore from West coast Northwards and see where the trail takes you. It won't be quick.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Warrior rush is indeed cheesy. But trading is overrated. Check out my map. There is one thing which you may have overlooked. The civ formerly known as the Americans has Marble at the location they call New York (but which is actually Chicago). So I will get a crap-ton of Marble wonders in my capital, starting with the Great Library.
sylvanllewelyn
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Inspired by this thread, playing as Roosevelt.
<snip>
settled 50 cities total. Including one in New Zealand (was little bit late for Sugar in Australia
How did you (how did he/she) did it? I tried this method
It doesn't seem very viable.
If I settle in Alaska, there is a magic barrier stopping my culture
Spoiler :
If some AI decides to settle in the ice lands, which they won't, I can open borders but cannot trade with them. I can "only" trade techs with them which, granted, is still extremely useful, but I cannot get across.
Spoiler :
If I can somehow convince that AI to give up that city, then I can get across. But how?
Spoiler :
Need city in Greenland (most South-East spot) and 2nd ring border pop so can get around ice blocks. After that 2nd city settles Iceland. This is little trickier as need 3rd ring border pop (mountain tiles block settling spots for quick jump over so need extra culture) but there is Deer, Fish and 1-2 forests to chop, so getting library (most likely solution unless got early Theater or religion (+Monastery)) is easier since can combine chop/whip.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
By around 1AD, Tenochtitlan will have most of the wonders in the world. And it will grab all of them from there on. Every one. We Aztecs will have taken over one continent and started on a second. Our caravels will be out exploring the world.
And what will they find? Pathetic Old Worlders who offer us Animal Husbandry or something like that for trade. Really? Am I supposed to give up Education or Astronomy in exchange?
And what will they find? Pathetic Old Worlders who offer us Animal Husbandry or something like that for trade. Really? Am I supposed to give up Education or Astronomy in exchange?
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Ah, yes. The Greenland-Iceland trick. Yes it works. You can see it from the map. OTOH, why bother? By the time I am ready to settle Greenland I am about one step away from Astronomy. So why bother? Especially if takes nonsense like third border pops.
Role-play, fun and builder paradise purpose. Things that this map can provide since Vanilla Civ4. Didn't want to mislead with saying that it is in anyway efficient way to go. Just that it is possible.
sylvanllewelyn
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Thank you @elmurcis confirmed it works.
With caste system it shouldn't take long for the third border pop. I could carry a great merchant over and meet everyone, then trade mission at the temple of Artemis. That's one wonder we do NOT want to build. Then we just gift the Greenland city away. The Iceland one I might actually keep.
On Emperor though, I still think conquering Eurasia with an old world civ is easier, but whatever.
With caste system it shouldn't take long for the third border pop. I could carry a great merchant over and meet everyone, then trade mission at the temple of Artemis. That's one wonder we do NOT want to build. Then we just gift the Greenland city away. The Iceland one I might actually keep.
On Emperor though, I still think conquering Eurasia with an old world civ is easier, but whatever.
I play E18 a lot so can speak to this a bit. For AI, China, then Aztecs have the best starts because they can expand into great land for quite awhile without much resistance. But for human, the European starts of Spain, France, Germany, and Rome are all superior by far. The key is to warrior rush the others and then you are left with four capital locations that are all stacked with resource tiles. After warrior rushing the others and then building GLH. Even on immortal level, you can launch an attack on China after killing India in the BC's playing hyper-aggressively. But if you wait until the BC's are over before expanding then your Middle East invasion will bog down at Mecca with its walls, hilltop protective longbows and a load of culture as it normally founds an early religion.
However, as AI, the Europeans will not be an issue since the AI are not coded to be hyper aggressive and warrior rush each other. France, Rome, and England are best with SIP. You are correct about Spain needing to move to the Barcelona location and Germany has several possibilities such as starting on the copper to accelerate an axe-rush.
For Aztecs, there are two schools of thought. Starting 2N gives you an HOF-quality capital location OR there is enough corn in central Mexico to have 2-3 strong cities instead of one super-city. Sometimes with E18, it can be fun to role-play history and the scenario is geared to that quite a bit. But if you just want to dominate and win then keep reading.
In summary:
1. France, SIP then warrior or chariot rush Europe. Build GLH and Pyramids then kill the rest of the world after reaching Currency
2. Rome, same
3. Spain, same except start in the Barcelona location.
4. Germany, same
5. England, bee-line Sailing, then kill France and Spain followed by Rome and Germany.
6. Greece, warrior rush Rome, build second city north of Athens on the Adriatic coast next to the copper while killing Spain, Germany, and France. Get phalanxes and kill Egypt and Persia. Then kill rest of the world after Currency.
7. Russia, expand peacefully at first in western direction then kill Europe.
8. Egypt, build 2-3 cities on Nile Delta, build War Chariots, kill Persia, Arabia, and Mali. There is also a gambit of killing Athens immediately with your initial warrior since the Greek AI is coded to build a fishing boat before their first warrior.
9. Mali - don't - unless you deliberately want to play with the most difficult start on the entire map. If so, then settle southeast of your starting place or punt your position and settle on the Nile Delta south of Thebes. Then kill Egypt when able to do so.
10. Arabia - kill Egypt then Persia. Afterwards, invade Europe.
11. Persia - start one north to grab horses in your BFC, then build Immortals and kill Arabia, India, and Egypt. Then after Currency attack China or Europe. If you decide to attack Europe, understand that your Immortals won't be effective if Greece already has phalanxes.
12. India - kill Persia, expand peacefully into Indochina. Then elepult China and Arabia
13. Japan - kill China ASAP, move your capital to Beijing, build GLH.
14. China - kill Mongolia, settle Asia, then kill Japan and India. Pick which victory condition you want to pursue. Russia will attack at some point.
15. Mongolia - kill China ASAP, then repeat history with your keshiks dominating Asia
16. Aztecs - see initial discussion, if you attack the Old World. Best place for the initial amphibious invasion is England followed by rest of Europe. Basically re-create D-Day.
17. Incas - expand across South America then attack Aztecs when able.
18. America - Monty has the initial advantage but in time you will overtake that. So play peacefully until you can kill Monty then dominate the New World. If you attack Old World, repeat Aztec strategy
I'm not talking just about trading techs but also resources and foreign trade routes. Like I said, I consider Aztec the second best start after China.
@Trout
Re: Inca
Can't you beeline Sailing and Quecha rush Monty?
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