MONTY The Mad Scientist

[UncleJJ]

Indeed, a SE to the max. To be honest I can not understand why anyone who wants to run a SE or even a hybrid (2 scientist specialist and cottages) would not make a run at the pyramids. In this game they are essential and paying off dividends. Police state has been valuable also.

I don't want to derail your thread with yet another discussion of just what a SE is or whether the Pyramids are an essential part. I have already said everything I think several times already on these boards so allow me to reference myself in an earlier thread

As many have already said, I consider The Pyramids to be unecessary for a SE. In fact on many maps it is easy to argue that HR is superior to Representation anyway, providing more happiness and giving much better flexibilty in controlling it. It depends on your gameplan but SE is particularly suited to warfare. There are too few specialists to make early use of Representation worthwhile in the same way it is in the middle and late game. That means it is feasible to research Constitution normally (using some lightbulbs towards Liberalism and taking Nationalism) in a SE and out research a slower CE based economy. That makes The Pyramids an expensive (500 hammer) distraction from REXing or an Axe rush.

In that post I also do an analysis of the value of GPPs versus the extra beakers from Representation (it is rather long so go there to read it if you like). That analysis shows in the early game the GPPs are several times more valuable (10.87 beakers per food invested versus 1.87 for Rep). This explains why REXing and building several extra cities early on is better than building the Pyramids and running Representation in the original cities. It concludes "running a lot of scientists each giving 3.75 beakers and 3 GPPs is better than running a few (or none) giving 7.5 beakers and 3 GPPs when each GPP is worth 6 beakers." A Philosophical leader would get an even greater benefit from the GPPs versus Representation and so should be even less inclined to build the Pyramids.

However I do agree that early access to Police State could be very useful, although I usually find a combination of extra troops under HR and fierce use of the whip to keep city sizes small during war deal with early forms of WW. In later ages WW scales more strongly (with the age) and armies get bigger, then Police State becomes essential and hence Fascism needs to be researched before the really heavy duty warring.

 

[madscientist]

Regarding capturing holy cities, this appears to be a blatant mistake on my part although MONTY appears quite amused and happy. If the boss is happy, then I am. The big probelm is that the captured holy cities (see the next post) are not our favored Aztec religion.

So an official rewrite of the rules: Monty is quite powerful now and no longer terrirified of the heathen gods, his Aztec god is mightier than all. However, the shiney gold from one of the shrines we got (next post) makes Monty very happy, and to be honest we need this for the SE.

Now, regarding the pyramids. Monty is very Confused and aggitated over UncleJJ's post, a king is better than his supershiney mega sacrificial alter. He is most displeased and is speaking about having UncleJJ dragged off to the alter to demonstrate it's real power.

On a serious note, HR would have been of no use as we have never approached the happy cap in any city. Monty is defeinitley too whip happy to allow that!!

 

[madscientist]

MONTY the Mad Scientist: Part VI

Another very good round. HC's last city was captured by Williams eliminating him from the game. We met the last AI (Cyrus), knocked Willima down to size, met a new colony, and fought a defensive war against Pacal. We won the liberalism and Economic races. We took some holy cities, but have stayed true to the SE and burning cottages. As always some decisions to make at teh end.

Firts of all, notice something missing



Sorry Hyuna, miss you already.

We got the free GM from economics, then got this great trade from Peter.



We start teching liberalism.

We now meet the last AI.



Glad it is not Darius. I have enough of these financial leaders. OH, and Cyrus is pretty far behind in tech, which is where we will keep him.

Soon into the round we get



We take nationalism as Prointing Press is rather useless since we have no cottages.

And we trade 2 non-warring techs for one warring one. Granted we lose the colossus bonus (we captured it during the sack of Cuzco).



And the AP election comes up.



We elect MONTY supreme religious leader. The Aztec god now rules all!!!

Soon after the trumpets of war are heard and we wonder what has happened. Note, Both Peter and Pacal keep giving us messages "We have enough on our hands now". The result in in the next diplo view



Peter is certainly building an army!!!



Soon after the expected request comes along



But of course. we declare on William, time to remove one more AI form the continent.

Here is the battlefront, the major force heads south from Michu Pichu while a smaller force takes those northern Dutch cities.



Peter has a very impressive number of stacks roaming Dutch lands and he takes a few cities.

Taking a Dutch city



Then the inevitable happens



Pacal drops a stack near the capital



We hold the capital by an eyelash. It takes a while to beat off the attack. Very careless of me and we beef up defenses on all coastal cities. There is some serious redeye wrath in MOBNTY's eye, and he demands eventually revenge on the Mayan imp.

We captured some dutch cities including the Judaism/Christian holy city. William finally caves in and capitulates to Peter. Now William did spawn Lincoln as a colony, so the war continued with him.

We soon declared peace with Lincoln



And actually traded military tradition for constitution from him!!!!

We finally made peace with teh Mayan slimeball



And to just rub it in we used the AP to further punish Pacal



And several turns later Pacal offers this trade, which we take for the cash as he needed 3 turns to tech chemistry (Aint espionage great).

We saved it at this point. Lot's of palnning to discuss.

I will continue this in the next post......

 

[madscientist]

MONTY the Mad Scientist: Part VI continues

So here is the status of our empire

Our military production city, one of the few cities without a scientist being run.



Power Graph



Peter is behind in tech but pretty damned scary in Military.

Demographics



Doing real well here!!!!!!

And doing well with techs



The SE is working very well, not a single coattage!!!

And the cities, we have alot



Cuzco is our GP farm, and we built the national epic there. In a few turns the next GP pops and there is a 40% chance it will be a prophet which I hope occurs, as a shined Buddhist holy city of Buddhism will help us alot.

A map of our half of the world



and the other half



So here we are: Many questions as to where we go next

1) Time to forgo salvery and switch to caste system.
2) Suggestions on how to keep this SE going post-democracy?
3) Next victum? As Peter is buddy/Buddy with us I am thinking of hitting Pacal next. He has about 9 cities on a questionable land mass. Easy pickings if you ask me.
4) TEch path: The options are replacable part/rifling for fast military, SM/physics/communism/biology for the free GPs, democracy for first crack at the SoL,
5) Do we attempt to stand pat with territry and crusie to a space win?

 

[UncleJJ]

Now, regarding the pyramids. Monty is very Confused and aggitated over UncleJJ's post, a king is better than his supershiney mega sacrificial alter. He is most displeased and is speaking about having UncleJJ dragged off to the alter to demonstrate it's real power.

Monte being confused would not be the first time, I remember when I served his father ... he was always confused too, never could grasp my advice... in the end he had to be sacrificed.

Young Monte needs to be VERY carefull, careless words costs lives, and even you Madscientist needs to take care . Old UncleJJ is well aquainted with Aztec sacrifical practices (just look at my Avatar) and has officiated at many ceremonies to appease our illustrious gods. Monte knows, as I tutored him as a child, that on that on certain auspicious occassions it is required by the Aztec gods that royal blood be shed ... something to do with the long awaited return of the Quetzalcoatl from over the seas. And apparently we have received reports of white men riding feathered serpents in distant lands. The times they are a changing ...

------

On a serious note, I loaded your 1090 save and I agree that most of your cities are not particularly well served by food and already have much higher happiness than pop (due to Calendar resources) so running HR wouldn't help now. I wonder if this was true earlier and before you built the Pyramids or had Calendar.

Several of your northern cities could benefit from chain irrigation and your new southern ones captured from the Incan need the jungle cleared. Would a few turns of Serfdom between Slavery or Caste System pay off. I think you'll regret hampering yourself with running just Theocracy rather than choosing between Pacifism or Theocracy or even Organised Religion at times. One of the great strengths of Spiritual (perhaps 50% of its overall value as a trait) is the ability to use the most advantageous religous civic and co-ordinate that with the build queue.

Anyway a fun game, I wish you and young Monte luck, the consequences of failure are ... well ... bloody

 

[madscientist]

Great Aztec stuff there!!!!

We are up to 1400AD, hope I posted the save.

Early on I had alot of happiness from elephants/gold/religion/representation. By the time I neared happiness cap I had calender. There should be no shortage of calender resoruces or grasslands as the setting were tropical to leverage the Jags a bit.

Locking in theocracy fit in with the warring Aztec mindset. Comeone, pacificism with MONTY? AT first I was going to not take any religion but I backed off of that. Incan jungle have been mostly cleared, and northern areas have been chain farmed. Drooling a bit over the idea of biology with caste system.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I start by saying thanks for posting this series, it adds a new light.

ENOUGH OF THAT.

AAARRRGGGGHHHHHH What are you doing in your cities...

Production= FORGES. its 25% hammers....OMG

Religion civics are OUT... I accept that, by Hamstring yourself by NOT BUILDING FORGES.

2 Universites for OXFORD UNIVERSITY, why build Observatories first, I know they are cheaper, but OXFORD UNIVERSITY...Become A RHODES SCHOALOR

State Religion as been adopted, and its the APOLOPOTIC PALACE RELIGION 2 HAMMERS...2 HAMMERS.. BUILD MONASTRIES 10% Science and 2 hammers, Temples 2 hammers and 1 happy (bah happy, ALTERS)

You don't need Free Market, I'd go Mercantilism/Caste system. I usually run this combo (95%) till the end. Build SoL + Mercantilism= 2 FREE SPECIALISTS. (I love Free)

Spoiler :

I loaded save played 2 turns, with both Caste system only and Caste system and Mercantilism, I was able to maintain similar tech rate at 0% and be 70+ gold in green, 30% research slightly in red. Hire 2 Scientists in all cities, fire the spies, Change builds to FORGE NO 1. William will open borders if you don't adopt Mercantilism, won't if you do. Now I don't know what your stratergy is? but these changes I make as EARLY AS POSSIBLE AND KEEP TO THE END

Trade, Pacal will offer 21 gold after 1 more turn, Silver and 21 gold for corn+cows

To sum up, at the moment your forgoing 25% hammers, 2 free hammers/building, 25% research and 100% with Oxford. Running Non Science specialists, haven't grouped workers into work groups of 3 each.

Future conquest, Turtle on Western front with Peter, Take all of the East, Vassals don't count as Free A.I's so Kill Villhem, then MOVE WEST YOUNG MAN.

P.S. Peter has an Island city, does this count as 1 remaining city?

 

[madscientist]

The hell with forges, or they are lower priority considering the amount of whipping. They will be built as we go along.

Observatiories are more of a priorirty as they allow us to run another scientist specialist. Universities will follow as time allows.

Good point about those cheap temples.

So one vote for Peter next. We shall see.

 

[madscientist]

MONTY the Mad Scientist: Part VII

Well this is a rather long segment of time although no major wars to report, however we are on the brink of oll our continental hayhem!!!! We fought a rather pointless war against Cyrus, and ran three continual Golden Ages with the help of the Mausoleum wonder (Thanks HC!) for a total of 72 straight turns. We also have a Great spy and scientist waiting for just one unique GP from Cuzco for another 24 turns GA. By the conclusion of the GAs we are absolutley dominant in military both tech advanced and sheer numbers. The boss is grinning madly waiting for the time of the Aztec people, feeling no loss as Aztecia becomes a democracy. He see's the upcoming glory of the magnificent Axtec people based on their bravery in battle and grand intelligence of their scientists (yes, we are strictly running a SE using only scientist specialists).

On to the game report

First we took IPEX's advice and built temples and forges as we could. We built enough universities for oxford which we later built in Nidros. Once we got Oxfor dopened up we prioritized obervatories.

To start we sign a defensive pact with Peter



This should keep the damned Mayan child king off our backs.

What I did not anticipate was this



Well, little threat there, so we fought a phmey war for a bit and moved a decent army to the south anticipating a naval assault. By the time we did that we got peace.

Now this is how our GA string started



we also popped a Great artist in Cuzco who is waiting to start the next GA.

We got back our defensive pact with Peter, but soon our relations deteriorate a bit as he switches to FR because of this



Normally a tech I agnore but old MONTY insists on every military option and who am I to argue!

Our next GP in Cuzco is



Which we use for the Buddhist shrine. The next GP from Cuzco was another GP which with the free GS from comunism we knew we had a third GA set.

I should say now what the tech order was

Replacable Parts/Rifling/Scientific Method/Communism/Physics/Democracy/Steel

After communism we switched to State Property



10% prodcution, no distance to the palace costs, and extra food. THe best civic for a large empire.

Soon after more hell breaks out, but we are kept alone



This is one problem I have with agressive AI. The bigger empire you start accumulating, the more likely the AIs will battle amongst themselves further weakening themselves techwise. Agressive AI is difficult early but very very easy later on IMHO. You cna also see the Victoria game for another agressive AI game.

The metioned second GP from Cuzco, that city turned out be great GP farm glad we waited so long to build the national epic.



Another colony pops up



And make a trade with Peter



Yeah, get's him closer to Cossacks and rfiles but we don't care as he will go down very fast.

We continue to use the AP to harrass the Mayans



Soon Peter and William decide to harrass the Persian/Arab combo



So I am think he has a decent amount of his troops overseas fighting these naval wars.

And we make a trade with Cyrus just to tick Peter off a bit



Soon after our third GA ended which is where we saved. We are at 30% science to break even in the economy but have a very massive army waiting to attack Peter/William.

To be continued......

 

[madscientist]

MONTY the Mad Scientist: PArt VII continued

The status of our empire

Our cities have lot's of health and happiness



I am hoping we can hold off running Police state but may have no choice.

Our current civics, which likely will not change



Our economical situation



And we are very far ahead in tech



Diplomatic status, not that it really matters at this point



Victory conditions



Beating down Peter and William is going to get us close to domination. Personally I think if MONTY does not get some nuclear weapons to play with, he will be awefully disappointed. Looking to keep some Russiam/Dutch cities as whipping boys so we can unleash the full atomic fury on the Persians and Mayans.

But first things first



As you can see those GAs did amazing things to our Power numbers!!!

Dominating in all demographics except life expectancy, guess that's due to the alters.


Land to the West



Land to the East



We are stuck with a 2 front war, so I am looking at the hardest blow to the west with a smaller force to liquidate those few Russian cities and Amsterdam.

OK, so does anyone NOT think we should hit Peter in like 1 turn???? We have rifles/grenaders/Cavalry/cannons/airships, I think it's time to experiment on this new technolgies!!!

 

[UncleJJ]

It's looking good for Monte.

One thing I meant to mention last time was the switch to Nationhood instead of Beaucracy. That would save you a great deal on civic maintenance and give a nice 25% boost to EPs at the cost of a few hammers and commerce in your capital (you have copper for the SoL so the 50% production bonus is weak). And with the considerable happiness headroom you have you could even draft some riflemen which with Theocracy will have 2 exp and make great stack fillers or defenders in a two front war. In BtS a SE normally considers Nationhood as its end game civic over Beaucracy or Free Speech. As you're Spiritual you should give it a try and take at least one round of drafting from suitable cities even if you switch out of it later.

 

[madscientist]

It's looking good for Monte.

One thing I meant to mention last time was the switch to Nationhood instead of Beaucracy. That would save you a great deal on civic maintenance and give a nice 25% boost to EPs at the cost of a few hammers and commerce in your capital (you have copper for the SoL so the 50% production bonus is weak). And with the considerable happiness headroom you have you could even draft some riflemen which with Theocracy will have 2 exp and make great stack fillers or defenders in a two front war. In BtS a SE normally considers Nationhood as its end game civic over Beaucracy or Free Speech. As you're Spiritual you should give it a try and take at least one round of drafting from suitable cities even if you switch out of it later.

I was considering nationalism but uncertain. I think I will follow your advice before the war, especially since I do have an espionage force of spies in the south to speed along the western conquest.

The cheaper civic would allow us to kep the science slider where it is for a while, and drafting would be great to save a few border cities from those inevitable surprise stacks.

The SoL is not a big deal to me as most cities cannot run past 3 scientists anyway. With Biology though I think I will be forced into running more non-scientists, no big deal there as we pretty much have shown we can run a SE scientist only economy.

Thanks!!!!

 

[madscientist]

MONTY the Mad Scientist: Part VII

This part we declare war immediately on the Peter/William tecm, taking control of the entire continent. We followed it up with a 24 turn golden age to rapid build our empire. where to go from here? Well, see at the end.

First of all we attack quickly, with the major force in the West and a minor force to the east.

Here are some views of the forces on each front

The Amsterdam force



The northern two Russian cities on the Eastern Front



Northern part of the Western Front



And the final stack for the Western front



And we switch civics, Pyramids are an absolute monster in this game with early police state.



Very quickly we start overwhelming the Western Border



This attack was supported by alot of spy missions performing city revolt and constant airship assault which we got from Physics.

On the eatern front we captured all major cities leaving 2 Dutch cities which we pillaged into the stone age. Alot of the time was running cavalry destroying every town and sending workers in for farms/windmills/workshops.

Things slowed up a bit on the western front



So we regrouped a bit but continued pillaging.

We decided to kick Peter off the continent completely as he had alot of islands for us to pillage later.

We made peace with William as he broke away from Peter.

And soon after Peter followed



Here are the victory conditions



Domination will require off continental assaults!

Also note we ar enow forced into running non-scientist specialists.



OK, we alter the rule to say we prioritize as many scientist as possible. Not a rule break but a reclassification due to neccessity.

We used our three GPs for a GA



Turbo rebuild time! We switched to reprentation and Bureacracy so we fast build



Awesome for a specialist economy, who said you have to switch back to a CE. Conquer enough land and SE worked just fine!!!

We teched off biology/steam power/electricity/fission currently on Artillery (OK, where are we going!!!!)

To Be Continued..............

 

[madscientist]

MONTY the Mad Scientist: Part VII continued

We saved here and here is the status

Victory conditions



Power graph numbers



Demographics



And the world map



MOnty is very pleased and has a sick evil gleam in his eye!!!! He see's absolute world domination.... That is all he willa ccept.

So my goal now is to rapidly tech the manhatten project, rocketry after artillery and build some nuclear weapons. The tech towards industrialization/combustion/flight and then build as massibve of an army as we can tolerate financially and declare war on the entire world all at once. No cities outside of our continent will be captured, eliminating all others leaders for complete world conquest.

How doe sthat sound!!!!

 

[absimiliard]

I like the nuke 'em till they glow in the dark then shoot 'em since they make good targets attitude Monty has you taking towards the other continent's cities.

Should be a fun slaughter. But it won't get you domination. . . . don't you need to re-settle some territory to make that 60% of the land-mass is yours clause?

-abs

 

[madscientist]

I like the nuke 'em till they glow in the dark then shoot 'em since they make good targets attitude Monty has you taking towards the other continent's cities.

Should be a fun slaughter. But it won't get you domination. . . . don't you need to re-settle some territory to make that 60% of the land-mass is yours clause?

-abs

Bah, who needs domination. We are looking at conquest. Monty will not be satisfied until every last leader have been sacrifices on his beloved alters!

 

[absimiliard]

Ah, Conquest.

Then you HAVE to play nuke 'em till they glow then shoot 'em in the dark and raze everything. Else you're bound to go over the 60% Dom win conditions.

Are you keeping anything? Capitols, specific Wonders, Holy Cities, any of those worthy of saving or are you just razing and pillaging every square inch of the heathen continent?

-abs

 

[madscientist]

Monty the Mad Scientist: Part VIII

On the eve of destruction.

Not much here except building an empire and army. Tech we are completely running away and have some invasion forces ready. A little tedious so I am planning to attack in waves, working Peter/William first. If you want a little reckless killing with an established army and nuclear arsonal please feel free to play the save.

First we popped a GM



And looking at corps



Cereal Mills looks pretty good except switching out of State Property is a killer. He are doing fine without corps this game. We popped a GP and GS so if we can get a GE (easiest in the late game) We can get on more GA.

And we build a wonder, I mean project that has Monty jumping up and down in delight



And we get a great wonder for the continent



Free power for all our cities!!!!

Our invasion force for Russia



And the Dutch



Power graph numbers are truely frightening



And we can get a two for one on DoW



And our tech lead



So I leave everyone on teh eave of Monty's goal of world domination. I even agreed to let him press "The Button!"

 

[cripp7]

so you're basically on all military production right now? I can see how the science economy works at something that I have never seen. I've always heard how well it works. The Monty is mad indeed!

 

[madscientist]

Monty the Mad Scientist: Part IX

Victory is ours!!! We ended with a domination win as Pacal was our last adversary and he ended up capitulating. The game was getting rather tedious to play and I wanted to end it. Having the Mayans arround made Monty pretty happy anyway as there was always a source of sacrifices for his alters!!!

SO first I will try to piece together how things went, understand that modern warfare is pretty complicated and tedious making it difficult to relate properly. Most of the war including Nukes (Monty was very happy with those glorious mushroom clouds) and naval assaults. We never landed an invasion force as we had no plan to keep any cities.

But first........

We got a great random event




We made complete mincemeat out of William and Peter, unfortunately no screenshots of this rather quick defeat, but the current diplo



Yes, Willy and Pete are missing!!!!

We declared war on Cyrus nuking all the cities on his mainland before sending the fleet.



Typical composition of our naval fleet. Carriers/battleships/jets/marines/tanks and one mega healing infantry (remember thos guerilla III promotions)



We also built every wonder we could including



Cyrus' last city



And then there were three



we decide to end this once and for all



Our fleet again which has taken very little damage



And then there were two



After some more nukes and razed cities



I'll take the domination at this point. Even Monty got bored with the constant Nuking. We got alot of Global Warming Warnings but Monty insiisted that we needed more research to determine that and who am I to contradict him.

And Viola!



The Mad Scientist is the ruler of the world!!!!!!!

The map



Power graph numbers



Demographics



47 razed cities, close to the 50 we got in the Mighty Kkan game



And we got the Boss to take a polaroid for us



Hope everyone enjoyed the game, I'll post a recap in the next post.