Monuments vs. Libraries?

[AnonymousSpeed]

So, I've been trying to improve my Civ4 play recently and to do that, I've been watching videos of people playing on deity. I've noticed a lot of them built monuments, but I'd assumed their wasn't much point to that when you could build libraries instead, which is what I've done in my own games.

I'm sure monuments are good for cultural victories, but in general, why and when should you build monuments?

 

[sinimusta]

30h vs. 90h, it's that simple. Sometimes you need the border pop and waiting for library is detrimental to your growth. Depending on the city it might not even need library at least early.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

I see. Any reason to build them if you're creative (unless also charismatic)?

 

[unas876]

If you're creative you don't need early culture anyway and in most places you won't build a library unless you need it for universities for Oxford later. So spend the early hammers on something more useful like units or infrastructure.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

So when should one start building libraries? What infrastructure take precedent over them, any specific thresholds you ought to reach before you work on those?

 

[Fippy]

2 relative early main uses for libraries,
Cap with Palace giving 8c and it's often built up with cottages or has some other commerce tiles.
Or a city that uses 2 scientists for a great one, Academy for your Cap.

 

[lymond]

Monuments are actually quite irrelevant for culture victories.

Libraries are about beakers

you build monuments when you absolutely have to to get a resource. Quite often for the unreachable seafoods Otherwise, it is highly recommended you settle with resource(s) in the first ring so that monuments are either not urgent or not required at all. (Creative obviously allows for more flexibility in settling)

That said, eschewing a monument for good settling practices does not a mean that city may not be deserving of a library at some point, so the culture will naturally expand at that point. So you are better off waiting for a good library whip and/or chop later.

Also, note that cities can also catch a religion from neighbors if trade routes are established, so that can be another way to get some culture without investing hammers in a monument - but don't settle poorly relying on that to happen or happen soon.

 

[Nials]

A monument can be whipped for 1 population, or easily chopped out with 1 forest. It's the cheapest way to get a border pop.

After getting Music, you can even build Culture. Only 10h to get the first border pop, then.

Obviously, that's not available during the critical early phase.

 

[dutchfire]

Or, at Code of Laws, if you're running Caste System you can run an artist to quickly pop the borders.

If you've already got a religion with a monastery somewhere, it can be worth it to have a missionary join the settler so you can immediately establish a religion in your new city. But I must admit I seldom micromanage this properly.

 

[sampsa]

Also, note that cities can also catch a religion from neighbors if trade routes are established

You can also build missionaries yourself of course, after building a monastery or running organized religion. If you are adopting a religion, you should also spread it.

Or, at Code of Laws, if you're running Caste System you can run an artist to quickly pop the borders.

After getting Music, you can even build Culture. Only 10h to get the first border pop, then.

These two ideas also mean that you shouldn't be building monuments after only the very early game in cities that really need that border pop asap.

I dislike wasting 30 into a building that does nothing else but produce a small amount of culture, but sometimes you just have to do it. Try to find situations when you don't need to do it. Being charismatic obviously makes monument a decent building.

 

[elmurcis]

Regular Library is toooo expansive to ever thing about it as culture building.... with CRE it is relative cheap but... borders already are out here (still - pretty good 2-pop whip to use for 30-turns whip cycle into some early Axe or stuff).
If its crowded map and with multiple religions, staying neutral before decision what side to join (if join any) and open borders with AI should give religion for borders early enough to make 2nd BFC ring available before size 5+ cities (without CRE leader I usually plan city to be "productive" - food special, green mine or riverside cottage later for capital - atleast up to size 4 if possible)..

 

[sampsa]

Regular Library is toooo expansive to ever thing about it as culture building...

I have to somewhat disagree, as I've many times built it either as 1st or 2nd building after granary. You should always have some good tiles on 1st ring anyway so it can't take that many turns to build it.

 

[elmurcis]

I have to somewhat disagree, as I've many times built it either as 1st or 2nd building after granary. You should always have some good tiles on 1st ring anyway so it can't take that many turns to build it.

I understand reasons behind that (and I see my mistake with word "ever") Just too used with Huge/Mara/NTT maps where Writing comes later and ~12-14 early cities are usually available without problems (more or less just "avoiding Strike" because of more time to pay back land investment) and during REX phase I might use Library just for regrowth phase after settler/worker whip..

 

[sampsa]

My experience on marathon is very limited, but I can understand your point of view.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Wow, thanks everyone, that's a lot of great advice I don't think I would have thought of on my own.

What is the proper time and place to build libraries, then? I'd assumed you'd want one in every city, but should you just save them for ones with high food or commerce?

 

[lymond]

, but should you just save them for ones with high food or commerce?

Pretty much answered your own question here. But keep in mind that it depends on what type of game you are playing. You pretty much always want to get up a library as soon as possible early in your cap to run 2 scientists for that first GS and academy in your cap (if that starting cap is a suitable bureau cap). Great person farm should get a library soon and considering it will have good food anyway, should be able to whip one pretty fast.

Then it really all comes down to city specialization. Library not much use in high hammer production cities with limited food and commerce.

If playing the long game in which Oxford is likely, you will need the prerequisite number of Libraries and Unis to build that, so keep that in mind.

So yeah, Libraries are certainly not an always build building, as are many other buildings. You will get a feel for this the more you play. The important thing is to set up a good cottage capital with library and academy as this will serve the bulk of your research needs for a long time, and explodes after Bureaucracy.

 

[odin1981]

I can see building 4 right away (monuments) for fail golding statue in initial first few cities but I prefer to settle at least 1 food in first ring. Though I understand the seafood conundrum from playing on big and smalls though. On huge marathon you need 4 for statue.

 

[Yin Cognito]

I never built Monuments - ever. To me, just like for sampsa, it doesn't make sense to choose to build a building that does 1 thing (aka the culture from Monuments) over a building that does 2 things at the same time (culture + science from Libraries). Now of course, the library costs more, but it also brings twice as many benefits than monuments. A very important thing that makes the libraries even more of a right choice, IMHO, is the fact that you'll need them later anyway, for Oxford University.

So you'll recover those 60 hammers difference over time, because in the long run, you'll build just libraries (90h) instead of monuments+libraries (30h+90h). From my POV, it's redundant to build them both, since they both provide culture. I go for the "2 in 1" choice.

That being said, I mostly start on heavy forested terrain, so it's no problem to chop 3 tiles (or less, if having decent production) to build them. It is the first building I make in my cities, if I don't have yet Metal Casting to build Forges.

I can fully understand the situations when a player might choose the monument as a better choice in the short term though, as others have explained already above.

 

[DrCron]

I'm sure monuments are good for cultural victories

They are actually completely irrelevant for cultural victories. +1 per turn is pretty much nothing when you are going for 25K on quick speed (or 50K on standard speed).

If you're creative you don't need early culture anyway and in most places you won't build a library unless you need it for universities for Oxford later

I disagree. If you are CRE libraries are cheaper so you can build them pretty much everywhere.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

They are actually completely irrelevant for cultural victories. +1 per turn is pretty much nothing when you are going for 25K on quick speed (or 50K on standard speed).

Are Cultural Victories mostly about running the slider at 100% culture then?

Also, what are the general "must have" buildings in cities? I've been trying to improve my game to higher levels by going Monument (if needed), Granary, Barracks, then units until forges, with cities that have a few villages or river tiles getting libraries* (in a recent Byzantium Emperor game, I had a city with no river tiles but a large amount of grassland which I almost exclusively cottaged. It was a coastal city as well, but mostly it was grassland with one copper and no other resources).

*- Also built them in cities with cultural border pressure, which is where I also built theaters, though I'm not sure if that was a good idea. Also, since I ended up building cottages in most of my cities, most of my cities ended up getting libraries.