There is another quick vote soon after the first one. Then they go into the regular vote cycle.
MoO1 Challenge: Meklar survival is at stake!
- Thread starter RefSteel
- Start date
There is another quick vote soon after the first one. Then they go into the regular vote cycle.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
My report is finished. It can be found on my website, here:
http://www.garath.net/Sullla/MOO/meklarchallenge1.html
I'm a bit tired of typing now, so I'll wait to comment on the other games until tomorrow.
http://www.garath.net/Sullla/MOO/meklarchallenge1.html
I'm a bit tired of typing now, so I'll wait to comment on the other games until tomorrow.
RefSteel
Pacifistic Technologist
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
- Messages
- 257
@Horizon: My suspicion is that the bugs' low speed was just because of poor design decisions (a common AI weakness is to build s-l-o-w ships and send them along with the rest of their fleets, thereby slowing their superior designs too), though you may well be right that they're hurting for engines -- I vaguely remember that Klackons are poor at researching Propulsion. (As further evidence, in my game, the bugs never got range tech beyond Hydrogen cells, which stunted their growth horribly, as you might imagine).
@IamJohn and Ungy: I'm glad you enjoyed it, in spite of the AI running away with the game. That's what I meant when I wrote that the map isn't intrinsically winnable; there was the potential for one of the big AIs to just go on a romp and take the game before they could be stopped -- I'm sorry you drew starts where they met that potential.
@dathon78: Argh!!! That sounds like it was a terrific game ... right up until the Psilons got that plague-assisted fraction of a vote! I'm tempted to agree on the random events, especially the plague. There's just something wrong when the only effective way to deal with a disease is to send millions of colonists from healthy worlds to die horrible deaths in the plague zone.
@IamJohn and Ungy: I'm glad you enjoyed it, in spite of the AI running away with the game. That's what I meant when I wrote that the map isn't intrinsically winnable; there was the potential for one of the big AIs to just go on a romp and take the game before they could be stopped -- I'm sorry you drew starts where they met that potential.
@dathon78: Argh!!! That sounds like it was a terrific game ... right up until the Psilons got that plague-assisted fraction of a vote! I'm tempted to agree on the random events, especially the plague. There's just something wrong when the only effective way to deal with a disease is to send millions of colonists from healthy worlds to die horrible deaths in the plague zone.
RefSteel
Pacifistic Technologist
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
- Messages
- 257
All right, as promised, here's the short(ish) version of my game log. If anyone's interested, I can put copious details up elsewhere and post a link. I'd also love to discuss the pros and (many) cons of the Meklon Gambit I used as my opening strategy. It's definitely not "better" than a normal opening -- certainly not in all circumstances -- but it provides significant trade-offs that I think are very interesting. (That's one word for them, anyway!)
Spoiler :
RefSteel
Pacifistic Technologist
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
- Messages
- 257
Some highlights, first from the galaxy as all (or most) of us got to see it: (All images created by copying and pasting pieces of screenshots into each other from different periods in the game)
Second, some peculiarities of my own game that I'll bet you didn't see!
I'm glad so many of you had fun with this one!
Spoiler :
Second, some peculiarities of my own game that I'll bet you didn't see!
Spoiler :
I'm glad so many of you had fun with this one!
RefSteel
Pacifistic Technologist
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
- Messages
- 257
@Sullla: Wow. ... Wow. If my "Big Three" had looked like that....
It looks to me like my draw was even luckier than I thought. I'm looking forward to seeing your commentary on the other games ... especially (selfish cyborg that I am) on my own!
It looks to me like my draw was even luckier than I thought. I'm looking forward to seeing your commentary on the other games ... especially (selfish cyborg that I am) on my own!
Impressive, seems i have a lot more to learn, especially in the 1st part of a game, as my problem is that i may always wait a bit too much before getting seriously on the offensive instead of doing small skirmishes here and there like currently.
That delay in my play usually allow for the AI to climb higher in the tech level, and in Impossible, mine is really not climbing as well as theirs, so i always end with something very difficult.
In my current game i am wondering how i could take out the huge evil empire that the Psilons have built, nearly destroying all the Klackons.
Winning by vote is now out of question, as the Psilons have enough population to block what they want.
I could try to search for spores and build massive fleets of small ships bombing Psilons planet back into pop10-only systems to cripple their fleet maintenance, but unlike my other games on lower difficulty i doubt this would work as now Psilons systems have way too much missile bases for the bombing fleets to close in with enough to destroy them.
I wish i had teleporters, i would easily break the Psilons using spore like this, but the tech is far, very far away out of my reach with my slow researches. And so far spying has been unsuccessfull, as everyone seems to have better spy defenses.
On my game there was a plague event that took over lots of turn before being cured, but it touched the Darlok, and so far out of the planetary vote i never met them, the plague has surely killed their expansion ambitions.
I bet that even an amoeba/crystal in the enemy territory would not help, the Psilons are so high tech that they would just walk over it.
At least Psilons can't win by vote for now, as i am always having the Humans, Sakkras and Klackons being that friendly to me that they are eating in my hands. The Darlok sometime vote for the Psilons, but they are so crippled that it counts nearly nothing.
I just hope the erratic personnality of the Humans will not break the diplomacy scheme, as for now i can indirectly get those 3 races fighting the Psilons for me.
I can always try some opportunity invasion, as during the Klackons/Psilons war some worlds never cease to change owners, making invasion easier for me.
That delay in my play usually allow for the AI to climb higher in the tech level, and in Impossible, mine is really not climbing as well as theirs, so i always end with something very difficult.
In my current game i am wondering how i could take out the huge evil empire that the Psilons have built, nearly destroying all the Klackons.
Winning by vote is now out of question, as the Psilons have enough population to block what they want.
I could try to search for spores and build massive fleets of small ships bombing Psilons planet back into pop10-only systems to cripple their fleet maintenance, but unlike my other games on lower difficulty i doubt this would work as now Psilons systems have way too much missile bases for the bombing fleets to close in with enough to destroy them.
I wish i had teleporters, i would easily break the Psilons using spore like this, but the tech is far, very far away out of my reach with my slow researches. And so far spying has been unsuccessfull, as everyone seems to have better spy defenses.
On my game there was a plague event that took over lots of turn before being cured, but it touched the Darlok, and so far out of the planetary vote i never met them, the plague has surely killed their expansion ambitions.
I bet that even an amoeba/crystal in the enemy territory would not help, the Psilons are so high tech that they would just walk over it.
At least Psilons can't win by vote for now, as i am always having the Humans, Sakkras and Klackons being that friendly to me that they are eating in my hands. The Darlok sometime vote for the Psilons, but they are so crippled that it counts nearly nothing.
I just hope the erratic personnality of the Humans will not break the diplomacy scheme, as for now i can indirectly get those 3 races fighting the Psilons for me.
I can always try some opportunity invasion, as during the Klackons/Psilons war some worlds never cease to change owners, making invasion easier for me.
TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
My report is finished. It can be found on my website, here:
http://www.garath.net/Sullla/MOO/meklarchallenge1.html
I'm a bit tired of typing now, so I'll wait to comment on the other games until tomorrow.
My start was quite similar, up to the ugly
loss of Romulas by Anti-Matter bombs.Apart from the Sakkras colonizing the worlds I couldn´t hold against the humans, I decided not to conquer their territorry at first, but to get techs from the Psilons and only afterwards turned on the Sakkras. I think both are quite valid. The Sakkras actually built huger fleets then the Psilons, so I needed a tech edge with them.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Well, now that I've had a chance to look at some of the other games, let me see if I can add some comments. I'm not going to both with the spoiler tags; we're on the second page of this thread now. If you're still in the midst of trying the game, just don't read this post, OK?
Archduke
Let's see, the Humans came after you at Romulas at just about the same time they attacked me. The main difference is that their ships were using Heavy Lasers... as opposed to Antimatter Bombs!
After all, you constructed a single base, and held them off. I built 10 bases, and lost horribly. A bit of a difference there, although the Humans did come back later and wipe out the planet. They seemed more willing to sign peace with you than they were with me; I must have asked the Humans for peace a dozen times and kept getting shot down. Pulling the Mining event and getting another Rich planet had to help out as well, even if it was only Aquilae. I was not able to draw any of the "good" events in this game, unfortunately. Fortunately, I managed to avoid having Meklon go Mineral Poor, OUCH!
We had the same overall strategy though, the beeline for Controlled Radiated tech, and actually landed it at roughly the same time. I was slightly before 2400, your game just a hair afterwards. We even made the same trade, getting warp 2 engines from the Klackons!
Because I was able to stay out of hot war with the Humans for a period around roughly 2450, I had less of a rough time standing up the Radiated colonies. They didn't come under serious attack until later, after I'd had time to stand up plenty of bases. The interval of peace that I got also allowed me to discover Planetary Shield V and Merculites at an earlier date than in your game, which was a major relief!
In the late game, the major difference between our galaxies was the emergence of runaway Psilons in your world, while I had a three-way split of AI powers. You did much more with capturing technology in your game than I did, and probably had higher tech levels than me due to looting all those Psilon goodies. I certainly was nowhere near Black Hole Generators! The diplomatic situation in my galaxy allowed me to carve up the weaker races instead, which granted me more territory - but not a great deal of tech. Overall, I think your situation was quite a bit more difficult than the one that I faced, which explains why your game finished later than mine. I've taken down runaway AIs before, but it's never a fun task.
Horizon
Based on your early tech discoveries, it sounds like you were splitting research evenly in all fields early on. You'll see from a lot of our reports that many of us will skew the early research heavily in favor of certain categories, usually Planetology and Propulsion. Those fields are both critical for grabbing a lot of planets, which is usually a prerequisite for success. I actually agree that a balanced approach to research is usually a good thing... but the early game is a bit different, and should be treated as a special situation. You might want to think about that for the future.
From that second image, it's also clear that you didn't post scouts over all potential worlds in range. That's usually a good rule of thumb; if the AI doesn't scout a planet, it won't send a colony ship there. Denying them access to worlds is extremely important on Impossible! You should have been able to prevent the Psilons from colonizing Tau Cygni, for example. I don't think anyone else saw that happen. Especially when you have so few worlds, you can't afford to give any of them up to the AI.
You didn't pick up +10 terraforming until ~100 turns into the game? That's leaving a lot of population on the table... That tech is absolutely dirt cheap (less than 200RP, even on Impossible). I would always grab that first, and add the additional population on all my planets.
Weird to see the Klackons dominating so much in your galaxy. You weren't even in contact with the Humans, which was probably a good thing! Erratic neighbors are among the worst to have to deal with. Diplomatically, I'm not sure antagonizing the Psilons was the wisest move, but it seems to have worked out OK.
You were pretty lucky that the Radiated planets were still there to be colonized so late. The one race that had the tech in their tree was... the Humans! They certainly were grabbing Radiated planets in my game, where they were one of the major AI powers. I think your game is the only one where no AIs tried to attack at Romulas (the Poor world in the northeast). Pulling the Mining event at Meklon was another VERY nice break. I think that MOO liked you in this one!
If you can keep the Psilons from totally running away with things, you probably have a winnable game on hand.
Archduke
Let's see, the Humans came after you at Romulas at just about the same time they attacked me. The main difference is that their ships were using Heavy Lasers... as opposed to Antimatter Bombs!
After all, you constructed a single base, and held them off. I built 10 bases, and lost horribly. A bit of a difference there, although the Humans did come back later and wipe out the planet. They seemed more willing to sign peace with you than they were with me; I must have asked the Humans for peace a dozen times and kept getting shot down. Pulling the Mining event and getting another Rich planet had to help out as well, even if it was only Aquilae. I was not able to draw any of the "good" events in this game, unfortunately. Fortunately, I managed to avoid having Meklon go Mineral Poor, OUCH!We had the same overall strategy though, the beeline for Controlled Radiated tech, and actually landed it at roughly the same time. I was slightly before 2400, your game just a hair afterwards. We even made the same trade, getting warp 2 engines from the Klackons!
Because I was able to stay out of hot war with the Humans for a period around roughly 2450, I had less of a rough time standing up the Radiated colonies. They didn't come under serious attack until later, after I'd had time to stand up plenty of bases. The interval of peace that I got also allowed me to discover Planetary Shield V and Merculites at an earlier date than in your game, which was a major relief!
In the late game, the major difference between our galaxies was the emergence of runaway Psilons in your world, while I had a three-way split of AI powers. You did much more with capturing technology in your game than I did, and probably had higher tech levels than me due to looting all those Psilon goodies. I certainly was nowhere near Black Hole Generators! The diplomatic situation in my galaxy allowed me to carve up the weaker races instead, which granted me more territory - but not a great deal of tech. Overall, I think your situation was quite a bit more difficult than the one that I faced, which explains why your game finished later than mine. I've taken down runaway AIs before, but it's never a fun task.
Horizon
Based on your early tech discoveries, it sounds like you were splitting research evenly in all fields early on. You'll see from a lot of our reports that many of us will skew the early research heavily in favor of certain categories, usually Planetology and Propulsion. Those fields are both critical for grabbing a lot of planets, which is usually a prerequisite for success. I actually agree that a balanced approach to research is usually a good thing... but the early game is a bit different, and should be treated as a special situation. You might want to think about that for the future.
From that second image, it's also clear that you didn't post scouts over all potential worlds in range. That's usually a good rule of thumb; if the AI doesn't scout a planet, it won't send a colony ship there. Denying them access to worlds is extremely important on Impossible! You should have been able to prevent the Psilons from colonizing Tau Cygni, for example. I don't think anyone else saw that happen. Especially when you have so few worlds, you can't afford to give any of them up to the AI.
You didn't pick up +10 terraforming until ~100 turns into the game? That's leaving a lot of population on the table... That tech is absolutely dirt cheap (less than 200RP, even on Impossible). I would always grab that first, and add the additional population on all my planets.
Weird to see the Klackons dominating so much in your galaxy. You weren't even in contact with the Humans, which was probably a good thing! Erratic neighbors are among the worst to have to deal with. Diplomatically, I'm not sure antagonizing the Psilons was the wisest move, but it seems to have worked out OK.
You were pretty lucky that the Radiated planets were still there to be colonized so late. The one race that had the tech in their tree was... the Humans! They certainly were grabbing Radiated planets in my game, where they were one of the major AI powers. I think your game is the only one where no AIs tried to attack at Romulas (the Poor world in the northeast). Pulling the Mining event at Meklon was another VERY nice break. I think that MOO liked you in this one!
If you can keep the Psilons from totally running away with things, you probably have a winnable game on hand.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
RefSteel
Wow, that's a bold move out of the gate, to be sure! With such a poor surrounding neighborhood, it actually wasn't all that bad of a play here. Generally speaking, however, I think that you would usually come out behind compared to a normal start, if only because the second colony usually feeds population to all of your other developing worlds. Not to mention, the second colony extends range so your scouts can fan out further, thus denying more planets to the AIs via scout blockade... yes, in most situations this play probably wouldn't be best. But you did a great job of showing that there's more than one right way to execute a MOO opening!
Paranar, the Arid planet in the southeast, was already colonized by the Psilons before I could even get there. I definitely had a scout there before your game; I wasn't writing exact dates down, but I'm sure that I had Range 5 tech by 2350 at the absolute latest, and the Psilons had a colony ship there by the time my scout showed up around ~2355. If only that planet had been up for grabs! I had more than enough production to defend the location with LR ships until a colony one could arrive.
It's absolutely bizarre to see how poorly the Klackons did in your galaxy, and have a runaway Human power instead. You may have been the most fortunate at all, in that the Erratic Humans never declared war throughout the entire game (am I reading that correctly?) I would have to say, that certainly makes for a different experience than in a game like mine or dathon's. Of course you did get major trouble from the Sakkra instead, who for no clear reason became a superpower, despite being a minor player in most games.
Technologically, I certainly would not have made some of the trades you did. You gave a lot of the AIs technologies that were missing from their trees in exchange for things that you would have researched naturally anyway. It certainly seemed to work in this game, I just dunno how wise that would be over the long haul. I would never, EVER give Improved Robotics away from something as minor as Range 7. You're going to give the AI 50% more production on every planet, in exchange for a tiny increase in range?! Giving away Inertial Stabilizer for ECM II?
You did have to deal with a very bad Plague event, on Meklon itself! That's definitely a tough break. At least the other events weren't too bad.
Strange to see the Sakkra using Death Spores on their fleets. I don't think they even researched that tech in my game. No one else has mentioned having to deal with Antimatter Bombs in the early game from the AI, I wonder if I was just unlucky there? You did a fantastic job of working the diplomacy in this game, first uniting the AI races against the Humans, and then turning them around on a dime and getting them to align against the Sakkra instead. You didn't even have 1/3 of the population, yet managed to pull support from everyone and win a true Diplomatic victory. Excellently played.
I wonder why the Psilons did so badly in your galaxy? That didn't seem to be the case in most games!
dathon
I saved dathon's game for last because I have the most critical points to make about how it ended. I know dathon was feeling frustrated about the outcome, and I understand that, believe me... but I disagree with his eventual conclusions. Let's go through things from the start.
I agree 100% with the initial philosophy dathon outlines. The best way to play the Meklar is to expand out to roughly 2x factories initially, then run the landgrab as usual until expansion is no longer possible. Only THEN should you go back and fill out the other factories; trying to max 4x factories out of the gate takes too long, and will result in a stunted colonization. This is indeed a mistake that many new players (and the AI!) tend to make.
Unlike dathon, I do not have the numbers memorized for which combination of techs open up LR colony ships. I knew that Durralloy would do it, which is why I researched II9, Durralloy, then RW80%, but beyond that you're getting too "spreadsheetish" for me.
It's interesting to note that dathon's Planetology tree ended up looking different than almost everyone else's, due to the desire to fit reserve tanks on colony ships as soon as possible.
dathon always puts more into research, less into factory construction than I do early on. This paid off handsomely in this particular game for him, because he reached Paranor about 5 turns before I did - JUST enough time to chase away a Psilon colony ship. I think I reached that planet around 2355, and the Psilons had just settled there (i.e. the colony had 2 population). The bid for the planet was excellently played, and did manage to land the location. Very well done.
The Sakkra declared war on dathon immediately, just as they had done in my game. The key difference is that I didn't meet them until almost 50 turns later, when I could handle their aggression much easier. Ironically, since I already had lost Romulas by that time, the Sakkra didn't have anywhere to attack me (they lacked Controlled Radiated) and so our war became phony. That may have actually been a boon to me in disguise, as I could safely ignore the lizards rather than having to spend heavily on defense.
I think this quote sums up the differences in our playstyles quite well:
Another difference in our playstyle that I've noted is that dathon tends to open up the extra tech fields much later than I do. I started doing at least minimal research in all fields after about 2350, when I discovered Range 5 tech. There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach, naturally. I just always recall the game where I waited too long to open up Force Field research, allowing a swarm of Laser fighters to capture one of my planets that a single missile base with 2 points of shielding could have saved!
I think dathon had by far the worst luck in this game in terms of AI declaration of wars. I certainly didn't see anyone else getting hit so hard by the Sakkra and (later) the Humans. On the plus side, the battle raging over Romulas was epic! I hope that that provided some entertainment.
I agree that researching both Battle Suits and Autorepair Special was a fairly major mistake. Either one or the other would have been fine, but not both. In a typical Impossible game, you only have time to research maybe 6-8 techs in each field. Pushing up the tree ASAP is something we can probably all agree is vital. Lacking engine techs was another huge hole in everyone's trees. Several of us managed to trade for warp 2 with the Klackons - but obviously that wasn't an option in your galaxy.
Now, let's get to the end of the game, and the controversial part of this commentary. dathon stated that the council loss in the 2500 election was due to the Plague random event:
Don't get me wrong; events can absolutely cost a player the game. My least favorite is the Assassination event, which has been directly responsible for 2 of my 5 MOO Impossible losses (turning a trusted ally into a declaration of war overnight). The Plague event is very nasty if it hits in the early game, slowing expansion drastically. But by 2500, it's nothing more than a nuisance, easily correctable with reserve spending and population transfer. I am totally NOT buying the excuse that this event, which probably didn't even cost dathon a single council vote, was responsible for losing this particular game.
The real reason this game was lost was due to diplomacy. dathon, you could have handled that side of things a whole lot better in this game. Here's what you said going into the final council vote:
I always assume that everyone will vote against me unless they have a compelling reason not to do so. Unless I have like 50% or more of the total galactic population, I keep a really close eye on who's going to vote for whom. To do otherwise is to court disaster, IMO.
Secondly, dathon seemed to shrug off the fact that he was at war with pretty much every single race here. That put him in a situation that, quite frankly, could have been avoided. Sure, the Darlok declaration of war was a bad break. I would have been checking them frequently to try and get peace over the next 10 turns, but let's assume that would be impossible. The Sakkra piling on was even worse news, although somewhat expected, given the bad blood between Meklar and lizards in this galaxy.
The real problem, however, was the Humans! They were asking dathon for peace! Well yeah, OF COURSE they're going to vote against you if they asked for peace and you turned them down so you could take over more of their colonies! What did you think was going to happen? Given the overall diplomatic situation, it was entirely predictable that everyone would vote against dathon here.
The loss could have been easily avoided simply by giving the Humans a respite for awhile, then finishing the job later on. Assuming that you have enough population to block a loss really is a VERY dangerous situation. I hate to say it, but I think dathon was playing with fire here and got burned. I mean, it's not like this was an isolated incident; the Psilons avoided winning by a single vote in 2399, 2400, AND 2475! Those first two votes the human couldn't do much about, but the 2475 and 2500 votes probably didn't have to be that close.
So while I'm totally OK with dathon's dislike of the random event, it's extremely unfair to blame this loss on the Plague. The game was lost due to diplomatic manueverings, not the viccissitudes of the random number generator. Sorry dathon, but that's the way I see it.
Wow, that's a bold move out of the gate, to be sure! With such a poor surrounding neighborhood, it actually wasn't all that bad of a play here. Generally speaking, however, I think that you would usually come out behind compared to a normal start, if only because the second colony usually feeds population to all of your other developing worlds. Not to mention, the second colony extends range so your scouts can fan out further, thus denying more planets to the AIs via scout blockade... yes, in most situations this play probably wouldn't be best. But you did a great job of showing that there's more than one right way to execute a MOO opening!
Paranar, the Arid planet in the southeast, was already colonized by the Psilons before I could even get there. I definitely had a scout there before your game; I wasn't writing exact dates down, but I'm sure that I had Range 5 tech by 2350 at the absolute latest, and the Psilons had a colony ship there by the time my scout showed up around ~2355. If only that planet had been up for grabs! I had more than enough production to defend the location with LR ships until a colony one could arrive.
It's absolutely bizarre to see how poorly the Klackons did in your galaxy, and have a runaway Human power instead. You may have been the most fortunate at all, in that the Erratic Humans never declared war throughout the entire game (am I reading that correctly?) I would have to say, that certainly makes for a different experience than in a game like mine or dathon's. Of course you did get major trouble from the Sakkra instead, who for no clear reason became a superpower, despite being a minor player in most games.
Technologically, I certainly would not have made some of the trades you did. You gave a lot of the AIs technologies that were missing from their trees in exchange for things that you would have researched naturally anyway. It certainly seemed to work in this game, I just dunno how wise that would be over the long haul. I would never, EVER give Improved Robotics away from something as minor as Range 7. You're going to give the AI 50% more production on every planet, in exchange for a tiny increase in range?! Giving away Inertial Stabilizer for ECM II?
You did have to deal with a very bad Plague event, on Meklon itself! That's definitely a tough break. At least the other events weren't too bad.
Strange to see the Sakkra using Death Spores on their fleets. I don't think they even researched that tech in my game. No one else has mentioned having to deal with Antimatter Bombs in the early game from the AI, I wonder if I was just unlucky there? You did a fantastic job of working the diplomacy in this game, first uniting the AI races against the Humans, and then turning them around on a dime and getting them to align against the Sakkra instead. You didn't even have 1/3 of the population, yet managed to pull support from everyone and win a true Diplomatic victory. Excellently played.
I wonder why the Psilons did so badly in your galaxy? That didn't seem to be the case in most games!
dathon
I saved dathon's game for last because I have the most critical points to make about how it ended. I know dathon was feeling frustrated about the outcome, and I understand that, believe me... but I disagree with his eventual conclusions. Let's go through things from the start.
I agree 100% with the initial philosophy dathon outlines. The best way to play the Meklar is to expand out to roughly 2x factories initially, then run the landgrab as usual until expansion is no longer possible. Only THEN should you go back and fill out the other factories; trying to max 4x factories out of the gate takes too long, and will result in a stunted colonization. This is indeed a mistake that many new players (and the AI!) tend to make.
Unlike dathon, I do not have the numbers memorized for which combination of techs open up LR colony ships. I knew that Durralloy would do it, which is why I researched II9, Durralloy, then RW80%, but beyond that you're getting too "spreadsheetish" for me.
It's interesting to note that dathon's Planetology tree ended up looking different than almost everyone else's, due to the desire to fit reserve tanks on colony ships as soon as possible.dathon always puts more into research, less into factory construction than I do early on. This paid off handsomely in this particular game for him, because he reached Paranor about 5 turns before I did - JUST enough time to chase away a Psilon colony ship. I think I reached that planet around 2355, and the Psilons had just settled there (i.e. the colony had 2 population). The bid for the planet was excellently played, and did manage to land the location. Very well done.
The Sakkra declared war on dathon immediately, just as they had done in my game. The key difference is that I didn't meet them until almost 50 turns later, when I could handle their aggression much easier. Ironically, since I already had lost Romulas by that time, the Sakkra didn't have anywhere to attack me (they lacked Controlled Radiated) and so our war became phony. That may have actually been a boon to me in disguise, as I could safely ignore the lizards rather than having to spend heavily on defense.
I think this quote sums up the differences in our playstyles quite well:
You would never see me do this in a game. Poor planet on the front lines says to me "max factories and defenses immediately, with reserve spending if necessary." Now I'm not saying I'm right or wrong necessarily; if anything, I made the wrong call in this game, because I invested a lot into Romulas and couldn't manage to save the planet. I'm more just trying to highlight some of the interesting comparisons that emerge from looking at these games. Even though I lost Romulas, my factory-heavy playstyle has saved some Poor worlds in the past that I think most player would have given up on.
Another difference in our playstyle that I've noted is that dathon tends to open up the extra tech fields much later than I do. I started doing at least minimal research in all fields after about 2350, when I discovered Range 5 tech. There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach, naturally. I just always recall the game where I waited too long to open up Force Field research, allowing a swarm of Laser fighters to capture one of my planets that a single missile base with 2 points of shielding could have saved!
I think dathon had by far the worst luck in this game in terms of AI declaration of wars. I certainly didn't see anyone else getting hit so hard by the Sakkra and (later) the Humans. On the plus side, the battle raging over Romulas was epic!
I hope that that provided some entertainment. I agree that researching both Battle Suits and Autorepair Special was a fairly major mistake. Either one or the other would have been fine, but not both. In a typical Impossible game, you only have time to research maybe 6-8 techs in each field. Pushing up the tree ASAP is something we can probably all agree is vital. Lacking engine techs was another huge hole in everyone's trees. Several of us managed to trade for warp 2 with the Klackons - but obviously that wasn't an option in your galaxy.
Now, let's get to the end of the game, and the controversial part of this commentary. dathon stated that the council loss in the 2500 election was due to the Plague random event:
I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this excuse. The Plague event can kill, at most 3m population per turn. Even if it lasted for a full 8 turns, as stated in the report, that would only be 24m people - that's 1/4 of a council vote. It's extremely unlikely that the event caused dathon to lose any representation in the voting whatsoever. And besides, even if the Plague was killing off population, we're in the year 2500! This is not the early game here. You could easily replace any population lost by transfering colonists from Rigel, a Poor world right next door to Tau Cygni.
Don't get me wrong; events can absolutely cost a player the game. My least favorite is the Assassination event, which has been directly responsible for 2 of my 5 MOO Impossible losses (turning a trusted ally into a declaration of war overnight). The Plague event is very nasty if it hits in the early game, slowing expansion drastically. But by 2500, it's nothing more than a nuisance, easily correctable with reserve spending and population transfer. I am totally NOT buying the excuse that this event, which probably didn't even cost dathon a single council vote, was responsible for losing this particular game.
The real reason this game was lost was due to diplomacy. dathon, you could have handled that side of things a whole lot better in this game. Here's what you said going into the final council vote:
The first mistake is saying "I felt I had enough to block the vote". If it's even REMOTELY close, you'd better assume that you don't have enough to block the vote! At least, that's my philosophy.
I always assume that everyone will vote against me unless they have a compelling reason not to do so. Unless I have like 50% or more of the total galactic population, I keep a really close eye on who's going to vote for whom. To do otherwise is to court disaster, IMO.Secondly, dathon seemed to shrug off the fact that he was at war with pretty much every single race here. That put him in a situation that, quite frankly, could have been avoided. Sure, the Darlok declaration of war was a bad break. I would have been checking them frequently to try and get peace over the next 10 turns, but let's assume that would be impossible. The Sakkra piling on was even worse news, although somewhat expected, given the bad blood between Meklar and lizards in this galaxy.
The real problem, however, was the Humans! They were asking dathon for peace! Well yeah, OF COURSE they're going to vote against you if they asked for peace and you turned them down so you could take over more of their colonies! What did you think was going to happen?
Given the overall diplomatic situation, it was entirely predictable that everyone would vote against dathon here. The loss could have been easily avoided simply by giving the Humans a respite for awhile, then finishing the job later on. Assuming that you have enough population to block a loss really is a VERY dangerous situation. I hate to say it, but I think dathon was playing with fire here and got burned. I mean, it's not like this was an isolated incident; the Psilons avoided winning by a single vote in 2399, 2400, AND 2475! Those first two votes the human couldn't do much about, but the 2475 and 2500 votes probably didn't have to be that close.
So while I'm totally OK with dathon's dislike of the random event, it's extremely unfair to blame this loss on the Plague. The game was lost due to diplomatic manueverings, not the viccissitudes of the random number generator. Sorry dathon, but that's the way I see it.
Sullla - I'm actually glad you saved my response for last, it's let me cool down from the day before First off, I'm going to state up front that I have no problem with your critical evaluation; I appreciate your candor.
Looking at the diplomatic situation, you are right; it was tenuous the entire game. My Psilons expanded the fastest, and got the largest of any race in any of the games, I think. They got the 6, 12, and 18 planet GNN reports. The only thing that kept them from winning diplomatically was that they did it by going through every single other race.
Now, as for the decision to stay at war with the Humans, I actually don't think I had a choice, and there's no way you could have known from my notes The "invasion force" I spoke of included transports; when the Humans asked for peace, I had troops already en route to Gorra. Taking peace would have been silly, as we would have been at war again just after we landed. And the invasion happened in 2498, 2 turns before the vote. Transports had to come all the way from Romulas, took 4 turns to get there. I actually thought about letting the Humans off after Maalor, but they weren't in the mood at that point, so I went ahead and tried to get Gorra before the vote, thinking "why not? They are going to vote against me anyway."
As for the plague event:
That is simply not correct. According to the MOO guide, it is random 5-10% of your planet's population. Incidentally, the cost is random 3-10 times the planets GDP. I'm not at the computer that the game is on, but I seem to remember Tau Cygni being around 80 pop after terraforming. That tracks right with what I saw; first turn after the event, I had 7 pop lost from Tau Cygni. Also, as for number of votes, every race gets 1 vote for every 100 million pop ROUNDED UP. So 100 million is 1 vote, 101 is 2 votes. So losing a few pop could very well have cost me a vote. As for re-filling pop, I was actually trying to do that, but the nearest world was 2 turns away and poor, and I didn't want it to be empty, or have transports in space (not counted) when the vote hit. Plus, I think that everything that happens on an interturn, including events, happens BEFORE the vote (I could be wrong, but given that bombings happen before the vote I think everything does). That means I lost 4-8 peeps, at the very least , that I would not be able to replace.
Now, as for my reaction and conclusion. I was extremely upset at the sudden loss. I had just clawed my way through everything, snatching the game back from the jaws of defeat several times. It had actually been one of the most enjoyable play experiences, in any game, ever. I was FINALLY at the point where I could pay back the Sakkra for their decades of unprovoked aggression. I was really looking forward to taking on the Psilon behemoth in a true late-game war. So I was very angry to have that elation and anticipation suddenly yanked from me.
When I had checked the bar graphs before Gorra, it honestly looked like I would have 1/3 on my own, without anybody else. Gorra was ~100 mil, so that made the prospect even better. I actually don't like to leave the vote up to chance either; keep in mind, you were reading my notes, not all of my thought process Peace with anybody but the Humans was simply not an option. And since they had denied peace as recently as losing Maalor, it didn't seem likely there either. Yes they asked, but that was before I took their planet. Should I have asked again? Probably. I didn't for two reasons; a) I didn't think that the Humans would agree b) I didn't want to That last reason is absolutely no excuse, but after being beat up and bullied all frickin game, I was feeling pretty darn belligerent
Now, the $64,000 question: Did the event actually kill me? The truth is, I don't know. I certainly lost more than 6 pop in the couple turns it was in place, which may or may not have cost me a pop vote. I'm not about to go back and count either It could very well be that I was going to lose the vote anyway. However, my dislike for random events, coupled with the anger at the loss, triggered my reaction. I honestly don't know if that did it or not, but at the time, it seemed like it did.
More to follow, probably tomorrow though. I still have some thoughts about the events (rational this time) and council vote.
dathon
First off, I'm going to state up front that I have no problem with your critical evaluation; I appreciate your candor. Looking at the diplomatic situation, you are right; it was tenuous the entire game. My Psilons expanded the fastest, and got the largest of any race in any of the games, I think. They got the 6, 12, and 18 planet GNN reports. The only thing that kept them from winning diplomatically was that they did it by going through every single other race.
Now, as for the decision to stay at war with the Humans, I actually don't think I had a choice, and there's no way you could have known from my notes
The "invasion force" I spoke of included transports; when the Humans asked for peace, I had troops already en route to Gorra. Taking peace would have been silly, as we would have been at war again just after we landed. And the invasion happened in 2498, 2 turns before the vote. Transports had to come all the way from Romulas, took 4 turns to get there. I actually thought about letting the Humans off after Maalor, but they weren't in the mood at that point, so I went ahead and tried to get Gorra before the vote, thinking "why not? They are going to vote against me anyway."As for the plague event:
That is simply not correct. According to the MOO guide, it is random 5-10% of your planet's population. Incidentally, the cost is random 3-10 times the planets GDP. I'm not at the computer that the game is on, but I seem to remember Tau Cygni being around 80 pop after terraforming. That tracks right with what I saw; first turn after the event, I had 7 pop lost from Tau Cygni. Also, as for number of votes, every race gets 1 vote for every 100 million pop ROUNDED UP. So 100 million is 1 vote, 101 is 2 votes. So losing a few pop could very well have cost me a vote. As for re-filling pop, I was actually trying to do that, but the nearest world was 2 turns away and poor, and I didn't want it to be empty, or have transports in space (not counted) when the vote hit. Plus, I think that everything that happens on an interturn, including events, happens BEFORE the vote (I could be wrong, but given that bombings happen before the vote I think everything does). That means I lost 4-8 peeps, at the very least , that I would not be able to replace.
Now, as for my reaction and conclusion. I was extremely upset at the sudden loss. I had just clawed my way through everything, snatching the game back from the jaws of defeat several times. It had actually been one of the most enjoyable play experiences, in any game, ever. I was FINALLY at the point where I could pay back the Sakkra for their decades of unprovoked aggression. I was really looking forward to taking on the Psilon behemoth in a true late-game war. So I was very angry to have that elation and anticipation suddenly yanked from me.
When I had checked the bar graphs before Gorra, it honestly looked like I would have 1/3 on my own, without anybody else. Gorra was ~100 mil, so that made the prospect even better. I actually don't like to leave the vote up to chance either; keep in mind, you were reading my notes, not all of my thought process
Peace with anybody but the Humans was simply not an option. And since they had denied peace as recently as losing Maalor, it didn't seem likely there either. Yes they asked, but that was before I took their planet. Should I have asked again? Probably. I didn't for two reasons; a) I didn't think that the Humans would agree b) I didn't want to That last reason is absolutely no excuse, but after being beat up and bullied all frickin game, I was feeling pretty darn belligerent Now, the $64,000 question: Did the event actually kill me? The truth is, I don't know. I certainly lost more than 6 pop in the couple turns it was in place, which may or may not have cost me a pop vote. I'm not about to go back and count either
It could very well be that I was going to lose the vote anyway. However, my dislike for random events, coupled with the anger at the loss, triggered my reaction. I honestly don't know if that did it or not, but at the time, it seemed like it did.More to follow, probably tomorrow though. I still have some thoughts about the events (rational this time) and council vote.
dathon
RefSteel
Pacifistic Technologist
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
- Messages
- 257
@Sullla: A few notes on some of your questions about my game:
By the time I won, I knew I'd lucked out on AI decision-making; if I had expected it to be as winnable in most cases as it turned out to be for me, I wouldn't have bothered posting it as a challenge! Still, I didn't realize just how challenging the map could be -- and would be in (for instance) your game and in dathon's!
The Klacks were indeed stunted in my galaxy, and the reason was simple: They never achieved range tech greater than 4! This was a classic case of an AI neglecting an important "type" of research and suffering as a result. It may be that this was the key to the entire game as well: I notice that in most of your galaxies, the Klackons wound up taking something way up in the north, perhaps helping to keep the Sakkra stunted.
I don't know if the Sakkra's spread in the north was cause, effect, or both of the Human-Psilon wars; it might have been a lucky erratic declaration, a Darlok frame job, or pressure from the Sakkra in the north driving Bladrov against Kelvan. Whatever its cause, the war between Humans and Psilons was at the center of my entire game. I first noticed it on the diplo screen in 2366, but I hadn't been watching closely, and it might have been going on for ages. Time and again, this war was what saved my game.
I suspect it was the reason Paranar remained available to me: With the Humans taking Rana and Rha (probably from the Psilons, in battle, though I didn't have contact with the brains at that point, so I can't be sure) Kelvan had better things to do than to worry about the far west.
I'm also sure it's the reason Bladrov never attacked me. He did declare war in 2413, while the plague was ongoing at Meklon, and we would remain at war for 30 years, but he never sent a fleet to any of my colonies. Why not? I saw fleet after terrifying fleet marshal at Vega -- not only during the war, but throughout the game -- only to suddenly move off without approaching me. My guess is that the Psilons kept mounting offensives, forcing him to counter with the battle fleet meant for me.
On flipping the AI: The only war I requested and received was by the Sakkra against the Humans, just after Bladrov declared on me. (I asked the Klackons around the same time, for the same reason, but they wouldn't bite, and eventually went to war with me). That was all it took to "flip" the galaxy later on, since Tyranid's previous alliance with the Humans meant he was already at war with the Humans' enemies, and his new war with the Humans also put him at odds with their friends. The "diplomacy" I used at the end was just bombing Sakkra worlds to help relations with other races and gain peace!
By the time I won, I knew I'd lucked out on AI decision-making; if I had expected it to be as winnable in most cases as it turned out to be for me, I wouldn't have bothered posting it as a challenge! Still, I didn't realize just how challenging the map could be -- and would be in (for instance) your game and in dathon's!
The Klacks were indeed stunted in my galaxy, and the reason was simple: They never achieved range tech greater than 4! This was a classic case of an AI neglecting an important "type" of research and suffering as a result. It may be that this was the key to the entire game as well: I notice that in most of your galaxies, the Klackons wound up taking something way up in the north, perhaps helping to keep the Sakkra stunted.
I don't know if the Sakkra's spread in the north was cause, effect, or both of the Human-Psilon wars; it might have been a lucky erratic declaration, a Darlok frame job, or pressure from the Sakkra in the north driving Bladrov against Kelvan. Whatever its cause, the war between Humans and Psilons was at the center of my entire game. I first noticed it on the diplo screen in 2366, but I hadn't been watching closely, and it might have been going on for ages. Time and again, this war was what saved my game.
I suspect it was the reason Paranar remained available to me: With the Humans taking Rana and Rha (probably from the Psilons, in battle, though I didn't have contact with the brains at that point, so I can't be sure) Kelvan had better things to do than to worry about the far west.
I'm also sure it's the reason Bladrov never attacked me. He did declare war in 2413, while the plague was ongoing at Meklon, and we would remain at war for 30 years, but he never sent a fleet to any of my colonies. Why not? I saw fleet after terrifying fleet marshal at Vega -- not only during the war, but throughout the game -- only to suddenly move off without approaching me. My guess is that the Psilons kept mounting offensives, forcing him to counter with the battle fleet meant for me.
On flipping the AI: The only war I requested and received was by the Sakkra against the Humans, just after Bladrov declared on me. (I asked the Klackons around the same time, for the same reason, but they wouldn't bite, and eventually went to war with me). That was all it took to "flip" the galaxy later on, since Tyranid's previous alliance with the Humans meant he was already at war with the Humans' enemies, and his new war with the Humans also put him at odds with their friends. The "diplomacy" I used at the end was just bombing Sakkra worlds to help relations with other races and gain peace!
Later than others but I thought I would try the opening of this interesting setup - thanks for posting. The summary is I survived and am ready to rally. I have not got the time to complete this but I mainly wanted to compare my opening with the poster and others.
Save at 2391:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/117018/RefSteel_Meklar_challenge_SAVE6.zip
Spoiler :
Save at 2391:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/117018/RefSteel_Meklar_challenge_SAVE6.zip
RefSteel
Pacifistic Technologist
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
- Messages
- 257
A couple more items, in hopes of offering and getting some alternate ideas on strategy:
What Sargon0 managed (check out the difference in tech levels!) with a start as peaceful as mine and in spite of much, much stronger Psilons crowding in (to say nothing of starts like TheArchduke's, Dathon's, and Sullla's in spite of constant attack) suggests that -- at a minimum -- a strong player with a standard opening beats a newish player with this gambit. In case you want to compare my start with your own or others', my save from 2399 (which I just load/saved into slot 6 for the sake of consistency) is attached at the bottom of this post.
So, though I pulled some other tricks that I liked -- notably including limited use of the tax slider(!) -- I think the part of my game of which I'm proudest is my ... um, creative? ... tech trading! I therefore felt I should explain my reasoning to Sullla and others who thought (at least some of) my trades were frankly insane.
Every tech trade in my game was made for situational strategic reasons, often having little or nothing to do with the value of the specific techs in the trade. I sometimes (especially with the Psilons) intentionally traded valuable tech to gain both the alien tech on offer and a stronger ally against a dangerous enemy. The perpetual war between Kelvan and Bladrov kept me alive throughout the game ... but that might just have had something to do with my trading Tundra to the Psilons early -- they had no Controlled tech at that point, and the Humans had both Barren and Tundra worlds, presumably among their newest colonies. At the time, the Humans had twice as may planets as the Psilons and had almost run away with a 2375 diplo win! Likewise, I loved getting planetary shields from Kelvan, but I equally loved giving him Terra+30 in exchange, as that gave him more votes to cast for the only emperor with whom he was not at war: Me!
Trading RC3 to the Sakkra was a miscalculation; I thought the battle lines were drawn, and it would be Meklar, Psilons, and Sakkra against Humans, Bugs, and 'Loks until one side got strong enough to give Bladrov or myself a Diplo victory. That wasn't the whole calculation though: I traded for Dotomite because it was in my tree. I was researching it at the time, with maybe a couple of hundred token research points invested of the thousands I would need, and like every other incarnation of these Meklar, I was desperate for engines. I gambled that, in exchange for giving a friend RC3, I'd be getting not just range tech, but thousands of research points toward a high-end engine technology. (It opened up Fusion Drives, so you could even argue I won the gamble, but for various reasons, they never played a role in my game).
Finally, Stabilizer for ECM2: The Klackons were the only race left in the game who still lacked Inertial Stabilizer, and at the time I made this trade, they were allied with the Humans, who had just erratically declared war on me. I didn't care what tech the bug ships had, since they lacked the range to reach me and were playing a shrinking 2PE, and it was the last chance I expected to have of trading the Stabilizer to them for anything. As a result, I regarded this trade as getting ECM 2 -- the most useful-to-me tech they had available for trade -- effectively for free!
Even so, all these decisions may have been dumb; there may have been critical factors that I misweighed or that weren't part of my calculations. I'd love to hear what you think of them (Sullla or anyone else) now that you know my reasoning.
What Sargon0 managed (check out the difference in tech levels!) with a start as peaceful as mine and in spite of much, much stronger Psilons crowding in (to say nothing of starts like TheArchduke's, Dathon's, and Sullla's in spite of constant attack) suggests that -- at a minimum -- a strong player with a standard opening beats a newish player with this gambit. In case you want to compare my start with your own or others', my save from 2399 (which I just load/saved into slot 6 for the sake of consistency) is attached at the bottom of this post.
So, though I pulled some other tricks that I liked -- notably including limited use of the tax slider(!) -- I think the part of my game of which I'm proudest is my ... um, creative? ... tech trading! I therefore felt I should explain my reasoning to Sullla and others who thought (at least some of) my trades were frankly insane.
Every tech trade in my game was made for situational strategic reasons, often having little or nothing to do with the value of the specific techs in the trade. I sometimes (especially with the Psilons) intentionally traded valuable tech to gain both the alien tech on offer and a stronger ally against a dangerous enemy. The perpetual war between Kelvan and Bladrov kept me alive throughout the game ... but that might just have had something to do with my trading Tundra to the Psilons early -- they had no Controlled tech at that point, and the Humans had both Barren and Tundra worlds, presumably among their newest colonies. At the time, the Humans had twice as may planets as the Psilons and had almost run away with a 2375 diplo win! Likewise, I loved getting planetary shields from Kelvan, but I equally loved giving him Terra+30 in exchange, as that gave him more votes to cast for the only emperor with whom he was not at war: Me!
Trading RC3 to the Sakkra was a miscalculation; I thought the battle lines were drawn, and it would be Meklar, Psilons, and Sakkra against Humans, Bugs, and 'Loks until one side got strong enough to give Bladrov or myself a Diplo victory. That wasn't the whole calculation though: I traded for Dotomite because it was in my tree. I was researching it at the time, with maybe a couple of hundred token research points invested of the thousands I would need, and like every other incarnation of these Meklar, I was desperate for engines. I gambled that, in exchange for giving a friend RC3, I'd be getting not just range tech, but thousands of research points toward a high-end engine technology. (It opened up Fusion Drives, so you could even argue I won the gamble, but for various reasons, they never played a role in my game).
Finally, Stabilizer for ECM2: The Klackons were the only race left in the game who still lacked Inertial Stabilizer, and at the time I made this trade, they were allied with the Humans, who had just erratically declared war on me. I didn't care what tech the bug ships had, since they lacked the range to reach me and were playing a shrinking 2PE, and it was the last chance I expected to have of trading the Stabilizer to them for anything. As a result, I regarded this trade as getting ECM 2 -- the most useful-to-me tech they had available for trade -- effectively for free!
Even so, all these decisions may have been dumb; there may have been critical factors that I misweighed or that weren't part of my calculations. I'd love to hear what you think of them (Sullla or anyone else) now that you know my reasoning.
TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
@Sulla
Thanks for the positive critique. One of the major differences of our game resulted also from the Sakkras. They actually colonized the Ultra-Rich and were voteable in the first two elections, making it very easy to suck up to them.
Also, the Psilons were indeed a runaway AI. As soon as I finally beat the Humans back I saw Sol and several other systems in Psilon hands, now that gave me a shock, I can tell you.
If it wasn´t for the pacifist Sakkras I would have stood no chance against the Psilons, although they snatched Romulas away from me before I could stand it up (again).
All in all a fun game, I think, showing that SGs are nice, but nothing beats a Moo Start played out like a GotM or RB Epic game.
Thanks for the positive critique. One of the major differences of our game resulted also from the Sakkras. They actually colonized the Ultra-Rich and were voteable in the first two elections, making it very easy to suck up to them.
Also, the Psilons were indeed a runaway AI. As soon as I finally beat the Humans back I saw Sol and several other systems in Psilon hands, now that gave me a shock, I can tell you.
If it wasn´t for the pacifist Sakkras I would have stood no chance against the Psilons, although they snatched Romulas away from me before I could stand it up (again).
All in all a fun game, I think, showing that SGs are nice, but nothing beats a Moo Start played out like a GotM or RB Epic game.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I agree. At some point in 2008, I plan to look into reviving the Imperia at Realms Beyond (our friendly competition games involving Master of Orion). Things are a little too busy with Civ4 at the moment, of course...All in all a fun game, I think, showing that SGs are nice, but nothing beats a Moo Start played out like a GotM or RB Epic game.
For those who have been around a while, Sirian bridged the gap between Civ3 and Civ4 by introducing MOO to much of the community. I hope to do the same thing as interest slowly declines in Civ4 and we begin waiting for the next game in the series. There's been no official announcement of a Civ5 as yet, but I think we all know one is coming eventually. When that time comes, I hope that some of you MOO oldtimers will be around to help show our newcomers some of the ropes.
Some good reading and very constructive critics, thanks a lot.
Before i was only playing MoO2 as i always prefered it over the Civ serie.
But after discovering this tutorial i could finally figure out how all of the interface was working and began to have as much fun as i had in MoO2.
I like both games not only because both are great in game mechanisms and user friendliness while offering lots of replayability, but actually out of being both 4X games, the gameplay is in fact totally different between those 2 games, so i don't feel like playing the same thing over and over again.
If only MoO3 would have not been what it is , billions light years behind MoO1 and MoO2 in term of fun and interesting gameplay...
A bit of update for my game, starting from my previous save from 2474 and ending this time in 2524, far from being finished actually.
I have stagnated in term of empire size, as with my old retro engines with which i was stuck since the beginning of the game, it takes way too much turn to reach and reinforce all those away systems while Psilons can run over the whole universe in a turn or two.
But i progressed a bit in term of tech and population, as i am now nominated in election to face the Psilons, and i have now a better engine making now possible to move around without waiting lot of turns before reaching destination.
On the bad side, the Psilons are now even more powerfull with insane tech levels and i will be forced to fight them, as the combined vote of everyone for me is not allowing me to be elected and win diplomatically.
Everyone is more or less friendly to me.
..............................
Year 2474
We are always trading with everyone (minus the Darlok, but it is only because they are so far with their tiny empire that we have no contact)
The erratic Human refused for the first time.
Ion Canon and ECM Jammer discovered.
Class 5 Planetary shield discovered, at last ! We should be able to breath a bit more.
The Sakkras are too far from Psilons to wage war against them, so i asked them to declare war on the Humans, as i am very concerned by the erratic leader there.
If they can conquer a planet or two, i will be able to ask them to attack the Psilons.
The Psilons are the main enemy, as an old spying report show that they already have a lot of superior techs that none else have. If they wanted i believe they could walk over the universe just now.
I have been spying everyone since decades, but it seems imposible to get anything with my Computers 4. Mixed with my crawling researches, i continue to far away in tech level.
At least my spies report that actually everyone seems to be at war with everyone.
I fear that the Psilons will be even more helped by this global war situation.
Got Death Spores from the Sakkras. At least maybe there is another option now to take out the Psilons, crippling their world back to pop10.
But before dreaming of this, i strongly need a better engine, as the retro engines of my fleets are crippling any of my expansion wish, as the time i can reach an enemy system, it had been took and retook 10 times, and reinforced even more.
A bad event, a comet going to Romulas. and guess what, i scrapped my obsolete fleet few turns before to get more funding. I am now doomed to redirect all the researchs of Romulas to building tons of cheap ion canon fighters, hoping it will be enough in 8 years. Just what i needed....
Dotomite Crystal (range 7) finally discovered, at last i can go on some away system. But with that slow Retro engine, it will be ridiculously long.
For the 1st time i am nominated for the election in from of the Psilons, everyone vote for me, minsu the Darlok that has 1 voice, but i can only get 22 to 15 , as the Psilons litterally own the universe.
I am afraid a diplomatic win is impossible unless i take out several Psilons worlds, but with their superior speed, weaponry and other techs , i doubt it will ever happen.
And now, because of this vote, the Psilons are restless with me, but at least they continue to accept the ever increasing trade i do with everyone, the amount of money flying in space is now impressive.
Battle suits discovered, great. but for now i am very concerned with my current 92 ion canon fighters not having destroyed the Romulas comet yet, what are they waiting for ?
92 percent of the comet is destroyed, i hope the last 8 percent will be in the 2 years incoming, or we are doomed at Romulas.
Comet destroyed 1 year before the count , good news, now i can go on with researches, hoping for a miracle or something.
I removed all my spying, it is worthless, my computer 4 has not been able to steal anything in centuries other than Death Spores from Sakkras.
At least research should be boosted.
ECM Jammer 4 discovered, well i had just ECM jammer choice in the tech list for computer, this is useless but at least open for computer 6 that may help with future spying.
Finally Computers 6 discovered , but i guess the time it took, everyone must have even better computers now.
It was at that time that i made contact with the Darloks , they seems even more hopeless than me
Enhanced Eco restoration discovered too, ah now that's something awesome.
Less of those tons of wastes annoying my planet sliders.
Improved Industrial tech discovered, it seems my research effort has nearly doubled, they were long to come but now we have some more techs.
I continue to keep everyone friendly with me by offering them regularly new trades, those traders must now be the richest people of the universe.
Finally in year 2524 Fusion Drive are discovered, a great breakthrough, never again our ships will take dozen of years to reach away systems, we can now reasonnably thing about getting on the offensive.
Maybe some spying just before to test our new Computers 6
But that will be for a next chapter .
Year 2524
The map
The trade/diplomacy screen
The universe status
Basically the Klackons have been forced to relocate their whole empire to the north of the map.
The Humans are more or less the same
The Sakkras have been seriously hurt , having lost some systems to the Klackons.
Psilons are growing, like if they needed this to be a threat.
I am stuck with my empire for now.
I learned how to play MoO1 by reading Sirian tutorial.
Before i was only playing MoO2 as i always prefered it over the Civ serie.
But after discovering this tutorial i could finally figure out how all of the interface was working and began to have as much fun as i had in MoO2.
I like both games not only because both are great in game mechanisms and user friendliness while offering lots of replayability, but actually out of being both 4X games, the gameplay is in fact totally different between those 2 games, so i don't feel like playing the same thing over and over again.
If only MoO3 would have not been what it is , billions light years behind MoO1 and MoO2 in term of fun and interesting gameplay...
A bit of update for my game, starting from my previous save from 2474 and ending this time in 2524, far from being finished actually.
I have stagnated in term of empire size, as with my old retro engines with which i was stuck since the beginning of the game, it takes way too much turn to reach and reinforce all those away systems while Psilons can run over the whole universe in a turn or two.
But i progressed a bit in term of tech and population, as i am now nominated in election to face the Psilons, and i have now a better engine making now possible to move around without waiting lot of turns before reaching destination.
On the bad side, the Psilons are now even more powerfull with insane tech levels and i will be forced to fight them, as the combined vote of everyone for me is not allowing me to be elected and win diplomatically.
Everyone is more or less friendly to me.
..............................
Year 2474
We are always trading with everyone (minus the Darlok, but it is only because they are so far with their tiny empire that we have no contact)
The erratic Human refused for the first time.
Ion Canon and ECM Jammer discovered.
Class 5 Planetary shield discovered, at last ! We should be able to breath a bit more.
The Sakkras are too far from Psilons to wage war against them, so i asked them to declare war on the Humans, as i am very concerned by the erratic leader there.
If they can conquer a planet or two, i will be able to ask them to attack the Psilons.
The Psilons are the main enemy, as an old spying report show that they already have a lot of superior techs that none else have. If they wanted i believe they could walk over the universe just now.
I have been spying everyone since decades, but it seems imposible to get anything with my Computers 4. Mixed with my crawling researches, i continue to far away in tech level.
At least my spies report that actually everyone seems to be at war with everyone.
I fear that the Psilons will be even more helped by this global war situation.
Got Death Spores from the Sakkras. At least maybe there is another option now to take out the Psilons, crippling their world back to pop10.
But before dreaming of this, i strongly need a better engine, as the retro engines of my fleets are crippling any of my expansion wish, as the time i can reach an enemy system, it had been took and retook 10 times, and reinforced even more.
A bad event, a comet going to Romulas. and guess what, i scrapped my obsolete fleet few turns before to get more funding. I am now doomed to redirect all the researchs of Romulas to building tons of cheap ion canon fighters, hoping it will be enough in 8 years. Just what i needed....
Dotomite Crystal (range 7) finally discovered, at last i can go on some away system. But with that slow Retro engine, it will be ridiculously long.
For the 1st time i am nominated for the election in from of the Psilons, everyone vote for me, minsu the Darlok that has 1 voice, but i can only get 22 to 15 , as the Psilons litterally own the universe.
I am afraid a diplomatic win is impossible unless i take out several Psilons worlds, but with their superior speed, weaponry and other techs , i doubt it will ever happen.
And now, because of this vote, the Psilons are restless with me, but at least they continue to accept the ever increasing trade i do with everyone, the amount of money flying in space is now impressive.
Battle suits discovered, great. but for now i am very concerned with my current 92 ion canon fighters not having destroyed the Romulas comet yet, what are they waiting for ?
92 percent of the comet is destroyed, i hope the last 8 percent will be in the 2 years incoming, or we are doomed at Romulas.
Comet destroyed 1 year before the count , good news, now i can go on with researches, hoping for a miracle or something.
I removed all my spying, it is worthless, my computer 4 has not been able to steal anything in centuries other than Death Spores from Sakkras.
At least research should be boosted.
ECM Jammer 4 discovered, well i had just ECM jammer choice in the tech list for computer, this is useless but at least open for computer 6 that may help with future spying.
Finally Computers 6 discovered , but i guess the time it took, everyone must have even better computers now.
It was at that time that i made contact with the Darloks , they seems even more hopeless than me
Enhanced Eco restoration discovered too, ah now that's something awesome.
Less of those tons of wastes annoying my planet sliders.
Improved Industrial tech discovered, it seems my research effort has nearly doubled, they were long to come but now we have some more techs.
I continue to keep everyone friendly with me by offering them regularly new trades, those traders must now be the richest people of the universe.
Finally in year 2524 Fusion Drive are discovered, a great breakthrough, never again our ships will take dozen of years to reach away systems, we can now reasonnably thing about getting on the offensive.
Maybe some spying just before to test our new Computers 6
But that will be for a next chapter .
Year 2524
The map
The trade/diplomacy screen
The universe status
Basically the Klackons have been forced to relocate their whole empire to the north of the map.
The Humans are more or less the same
The Sakkras have been seriously hurt , having lost some systems to the Klackons.
Psilons are growing, like if they needed this to be a threat.
I am stuck with my empire for now.
RefSteel
Pacifistic Technologist
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
- Messages
- 257
I'd love to participate in a revival of the Imperia sometime next year. I'd be great at providing detailed examples of exactly what not to do!
@Horizon: Good luck with the rest of your game. Be aware that your Computers tech level is what matters for spying (the number to the right of the Computers slider on your Tech screen) - not just your highest level battle computer. (Edit: Your latest technology in this area is what's important, no matter whether it's in Battle Computers, ECM, Scanners, or Robotic Controls, and each obsolete tech of any of these types, regardless of quality, help a little.)
I still have not gotten back to Moo, but I hope this weekend will see me playing this game. Jones for Moo by now. I had two Civ3, 1 Civ4 game going and I wanted to play some GC2.
Some where I wanted also get in some Might and Magic, but I have not been able to get off work, so not enough time to do it all.
Looking forward to reading the stories, if I had known how long it would be till I got to this, I would have read them as I would not have remember anything by now anyway.
Some where I wanted also get in some Might and Magic, but I have not been able to get off work, so not enough time to do it all.
Looking forward to reading the stories, if I had known how long it would be till I got to this, I would have read them as I would not have remember anything by now anyway.
