[MoO] MOO2 basic economic development video

[Darza]

Thanks to NeptunesNook, i recall what some guys recently did a great job of recovering from the void one great educational video by Cabman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvmHMwODHeU

Actually those 40 mins would save a hours or even days of learning MOO2 for a new player. While there is some small mistakes ("imperfections" probably is more correct word here) in the video (well, it about 10 years old afterall, it was OK those time), i think its of possible great usage for many people. Especially taking into account what its the only video with correct moo2 gameplay on Youtube im aware of.

 

[neilkaz]

Yes, this is how to start from standard with that great and unless MP, very OP race!

This must be a non standard galaxy with all those nice planets. I presume some map script was used?

 

[Darza]

Why, it decent MP race. I guess he just restarted till get a very good map to show routine moves on it, as it old video, but maybe he used some save editor to generate it, i can try to ask him.

 

[neilkaz]

Why, it decent MP race. I guess he just restarted till get a very good map to show routine moves on it, as it old video, but maybe he used some save editor to generate it, i can try to ask him.

Just decent ..I think if I knew a were going to get that starting spot and nearby galaxy with all those big wet planets to populate, I'd choose this race if I had to play a game to save my life. I think with that start I'd prefer it to UniAquaProd+2LRHW. It is taking Prod+1 and pop to 50% rather than Prod+2 but so many big wet planets.

When I said OP, I mean overpowered vs AI's. A newer player reading this and never having won vs Impossible AI's would do well to, 1) of course watch that video and especially the beginnings a few times and 2) choose that race.

 

[Darza]

UniAquaProd is more reliable imho too. But some player like it this way, why not, its all about sector anyway. UniTol more stable, UniAqua more powerful, all the story.

No-no, this is have nothing to do with AI's. Its a basics of economy growth of prod race in moo2. Its not needed VS AI, its for multiplayer or record population runs, for "effective game". But it show all the needed routine for new players, as actions are same even with weak races. And versus AI is like shooting crow with AA machine gun, not OP, its overkill. For effective AI game you need other strategy, this one too slow, as it suggest 100 turns of peace between players, so they can develop.

 

[neilkaz]

For effective AI game you need other strategy, this one too slow, as it suggest 100 turns of peace between players, so they can develop.

Yeah, you keep telling me in my UniRepulsive game story thread, that I should better learn how to attack AI's faster even with a bad race and bad start.

From reading here http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2005/03/master-of-orion-ii-strategy-guide.html I am very used to playing to develop for 100 turns or more (pre-warp) vs AI's as well.

 

[Darza]

Hm, no, not what you should better learn something. Just its most effective way to play AI, not necessary best one, most fun one etc. Just some people mixing effective economic development (not only not needed to win AI, but less effective in this case (more turns needed)) with effective anti-AI strategies. They are 2 different games, you dont need AI for economic development, and you dont need that development to kill AI. Its good to be able to do both things, i meant only that.

Problem is what depends on settings - you could have a problem with inability to communicate with AI. Say such development with 8 players will make you do a contact very fast, and AI could start to disrupt you, so instead of following a spreading course you will have to spend some resourses to get rid of pest. Imho its more spoil than fun in this case. This guide is good, tho obsolete badly in many aspects. But i see now from where you got that crazy merculites.

 

[neilkaz]

This guide is good, tho obsolete badly in many aspects. But i see now from where you got that crazy merculites.

Crazy Merc idea? Yeah, I don't need Mercs against early or even mid game AI as Nukes are good enough. What I do need them for is to kill the Guardian which means easy win, of course as unless there's a total runaway AI and a high general tech level (friendly Psilons spreading techs around) the AI's can't have anything to threaten Locknar's ship prior to about turn 275.

So you're telling me to forget Mercs and get and use Pollution Processors instead and to kill the Guardian by other means later if I feel the need to do so?

Then again, I can usually steal Mercs or Pulson missiles in a war with an AI anyhow.

 

[Darza]

No, i just saying what this certain guide have a flaws about mercs, with too much advertize for them. As its for MP game (according to author), and Orion is banned there anyway, it is quite strange, as polproc is must have tech for economy (beside tolerant, but no one need to read a guide to take merks while playing tolerant anyway). If you're focused on Guardian - of course you better use them, as you will be able to kill him more faster that way, despite a hit for economy, what will become unimportant after Orion capture due to spoils of war, but its absolutely other story then, not typical game. But if you're not focused about killing it asap - surely there is plethora of other ways later. You can kill it with selfdestruckting a bunch of BB's, or let one ship with stasis field survive first turn and win outright, or shot it with phasors or whatever. Just its simply more faster to kill 7 AI's than Guardian (no, forget about stasis field, there is no such tech in game, sorry).

Upd: Cabman sayd he played Goodmap map modification there (it have an increased wet planets percentage beside other factors), but it still a good start anyway of course.

 

[Tabarnak]

Did you find any pre warp start videos?

They all have the necessary techs to start build up...i prefer pre warp.

 

[Darza]

Its about storing a production, housing, managing the colonists. Its educational video.
What do you planning to see in prewarp? Its absolutely the same, just you research freighters after 1-st colony base, then research few additional tech fields after all Cbases are built, before building of colony ships. Pre-warp is almost identical to Average in economic terms, just some redundant tech fields are added, and weak in economical terms races become even weaker, all other the same. Advanced tech is other story.

 

[Tabarnak]

I do use these techniques but i have a pretty different way to play the game using demo and a strat that beeline robo miner instead and i wanted to compare with pre warp games since that i always play pre warp. I want to check some benchmarks.

 

[Darza]

Demo from prewarp is even more weak than from average, so actually there is not much to compare. What essentially you want to check? Uni from average have ~150-200 pop at T100 (assuming 1-1 large map game), as prewarp adding a delay - say 100-120. If you mean "sitting on one planet till robominers, than start to build something" - no, it doesnt work well (its still enough for AI games of course).

 

[Tabarnak]

Demo from prewarp is even more weak than from average, so actually there is not much to compare. What essentially you want to check? Uni from average have ~150-200 pop at T100 (assuming 1-1 large map game), as prewarp adding a delay - say 100-120. If you mean "sitting on one planet till robominers, than start to build something" - no, it doesnt work well (its still enough for AI games of course).

Yeah that's my point. Seeing actual videos, i still prefer the demo approach to uni. Thanks for putting some infos.

It's actually hard to compare between maps though. Sometimes you only have a medium toundra planet with little and poor ones and sometimes you are close from heaven

I can usually populate 4-5 solar systems before 80 turns pre warp and kill 2-3 AIs before 120 turns on large maps. Antarans can be visited before 200 turns. If' it's not good, then i wonder what is much better.

I'm still talking about Impossible AI with 8 of them(i play all types of map with always 8 AIs) of course since that i never played MP. Trading is important with AIs so i'm not repulsive to gain great leaders and techs from AIs. If i'm lucky i can get Federation or Auto Labs before the turn 130.

What about tech rate? There are my benchmarks(if i don't focus on prod too much): 90 RP by 50 turns, 200 RP by 100 turns, 600 RP by 150 turns.

Maybe i should make a video myself?

 

[Darza]

Well, as i wrote already - this video is just to show the routine moves for economic development. Its not some record run or something. Its not about game VS AI at all, you dont need such performance to win AI.

In vanilla moo2 there is only one demo race, what in theory can compete with good uni races - demolith. If demolith will get a good sector around, and uni will get bad one - it could win then. All others will lose even in this case. If you really like the way techraces works - you can try VDC mod, or some other ones. They all are trying to fix Uni's blatant imbalance, by making demo cheaper than uni as a pick, and by actually enabling morale in game (vanilla game have no viable moral techs, so, while Uni should eventually lose a pace due to demo's or dict morale boost later, it doesnt happen in vanilla due to awful morale tech placements, they are simply hoplessly too late). In mods techraces are very good in result of fix.

With maps - original map generator so random, so actually the most stable strategy involve skipping colonisation at all (returning to AI now). You can win many ways, but if you are planning to win from one planet - it means what it doesnt matter if you got small tundra or huge gaia. And the fastest and most reliable strategy VS AI doesnt involve any colonization (colonybases included), not labs-autofacts, theyll just slowing you down. Yes, AI is so bad, so if you will build research and build autofactories - you will just give him few more turns of life by doing it.

Depends what you mean by "good" here. All 7 AI's always could be killed pre-T100 from prewarp on huge with right race, no matter of map, even if you turn wormholes off. With wormholes - its about them, artifacts, splinters and leaders, average time is around T80 then, my best is T63 from outstandingly lucky map.

4-5 systems is not a real data without population, if you talk about economic development, not AI bashing. Uni will have about 10 systems and 100 pop around this time (if map will afford), and can finish all the techfields before T200, settling a whole galaxy by that time. Sadly i didnt attacked Antares for years, so not remember about it clearly, but if you have an option about taking Orion as viable - it could be done quite early, using Orion tech, if not - slightly later. So yes, if i got you right its not too good, but more than enough VS AI's for sure.

I think trading with AI is a cheap nonsence, its of use only when you're learning the game and want to see whats inside it. Later its just cheap and unfair, you just got tech for free this way. Better to learn to develop without it imho.

Uni's techrate at T100 is about 300-400 from prewarp, at t 150, dunno, few thousands, game is rarely go that far.

 

[Giftless]

Thanks to NeptunesNook, i recall what some guys recently did a great job of recovering from the void one great educational video by Cabman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvmHMwODHeU

Actually those 40 mins would save a hours or even days of learning MOO2 for a new player. While there is some small mistakes ("imperfections" probably is more correct word here) in the video (well, it about 10 years old afterall, it was OK those time), i think its of possible great usage for many people. Especially taking into account what its the only video with correct moo2 gameplay on Youtube im aware of.

Gah, some of those rush buys, spending 170-190 gold to shave off 4 turns on a colony base? Then rebuilding one's sold star base by turn 15? Excellent growth though and good placement of the first colony ship.

 

[Darza]

Gah, some of those rush buys, spending 170-190 gold to shave off 4 turns on a colony base? Then rebuilding one's sold star base by turn 15? Excellent growth though and good placement of the first colony ship.

The optimal purchase sum for Colony Base is 200 BC, 100 PP at 2:1 ratio, that's how it done if you can afford it. Also there is no rebuilding of Star Base on this video at all, are you sure you watched it properly? And excellent grow is all that is the video is about, nothing more.

 

[Giftless]

The optimal purchase sum for Colony Base is 200 BC, 100 PP at 2:1 ratio, that's how it done if you can afford it. Also there is no rebuilding of Star Base on this video at all, are you sure you watched it properly? And excellent grow is all that is the video is about, nothing more.

I'm just kidding about the Star Base rebuilds; I saw how the production was converted into Research Labs later in the video.

Quick question, is there some optimal technique for deciding whether to build a Colony Base or a Freighter first? I notice if the colony is farmable, that could mean a couple turns of extra growth but no production. On the other hand, if the first colonist is set to production, then a freighter is usually required for growth. Basically I'm wondering if anyone builds those colony bases first and allows their colonists to starve for some other benefit.

I suppose it's just unusual for me to see a Colony Base with a 4-turn build time that early in the game. With racial picks like that, their start is power-gamed to the point where rush buy almost doesn't matter. I will say the 2:1 ratio is right on target, though what I'll often do is use my Rush Buy money to knock off as many turns as possible.

I guess that's the part about having bad production which feels good, having only two hammers and then shaving off 15 turns from that half-constructed research lab.

 

[Darza]

One Colony base first, than one freighter, than all other bases, than enough freighters to constantly moving a colonists on a new planets while keeping them feed. Till that freighter is built - new planet starve housing alittle, its a grow still.

Early turns are matter the most, so its very important to build stuff there asap. If you have 2 PP - you need a factory first. Well, as in almost any case actually, so you could purchase new stuff right after it researched with stored Prod from that factory.

 

[Rocco.40]

[...] This must be a non standard galaxy with all those nice planets. I presume some map script was used?

This was played on a gm3 map.

I have copied this video from Shmorgun's channel to my own, so it can get a few more views.