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MOO2: What is an optimal Guardian fleet

Discussion in 'Other Civ-Related Games' started by Tristan_C, Mar 26, 2007.

  1. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Chieftain

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    I'm wondering if there's a good blitz strategy against the Orion guardian in MOO2. Looking at his stats, it would seem at first that a huge stack of missiles would be rather useless since he has a jammer and a lightning field. Yet I recall reading somewhere that you can make it work if you set up right and bring a few "throwaway" Fast, Armored missiles for him to eat first, and fire a big stack of MIRV merculites and EMG merculites in one clump using fast missile racks. I have no confirmation on this. Anyone have stories on beating him early... cheaply... efficiently... whateverly?
    Code:
    Guardian
    +175 Beam Attack (125 Computer, 50 Battle Scanner)
    +100 Beam defense (50 base, 50 Inertial Stabilizer)
    125% Missile Evasion (25 base(?), 100 Multi-Wave Jammer)
    
    Class V Shield (125 Strength, 8 dmg redux?)
    800/800 Health (Xentronium, immune to Armor Penetration)
    
    2 [Hv 360º] Death Rays
    10 [Pd 360º] Particle Beams (Ignores shields, unless Hard)
    2 [Env, ECCM, Ovr] Plasma Torps
    2 Spatial Compressors
    
    Systems:
    Achilles targeting
    Battle Scanner
    Inertial Stabilizer
    Multi-Wave ECM
    Automated Repair
    Hard Shields
    Lightning Field
    Rangemaster Unit
     
  2. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    It can be done, but you need a large fleet. IIRC he has 10,000 hit points at impossible.

    I just wait until I have 6 battleships with phasors. At least if I have found Orion by that time. If you wait much longer, someone else will find him.
     
  3. Blake

    Blake The AI Guy

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    I recall cheesing him like this:

    Firstly, you need EMG missiles. MIRV EMG Merculites are best.


    Bring a few cruisers, or generally obsolete larger ships.

    Bring a bunch of frigates with MIRV EMG Merculites.

    Now the basic idea is to fly a cruiser up to the Guardian and Self destruct, this wipes out the Guardians shields. I think you need to blow 2 Cruisers, but 1 Battleship will take out the shields. Self destruct is a big cheese to take out shields.

    The Guardian having lost his shields is now vulnerable to Missiles, if you let him move he'll regenerate his shields and he'll use his special on incoming missiles, but you can get around this. Just fly the frigates up to the guardian and unload the missiles at point blank, this way he has no chance to use his special. Once enough EMG missiles penetrate the lightning field he'll pop.

    This is the easiest way I know of to take out the guardian, it MIGHT be cheaper to take it out using precise timing with missile volley launches (so the forward fast missiles cause him to blow his special, then the heavy armor ones eat the PD, and the first rack of MIRV's drop the shields, then finally the EMG's come in and pop him) but the precision required to achieve that is nuts. The point blank method is far simpler.

    So again to summarize, us custom designed or obsolete throwaway cruisers or a battleship to drop the shields with self destruct, then use custom designed EMG MIRV Merculite frigates at point blank to pop him. The most important thing is to have enough movement speed to get into point blank range (or you can wait a turn and arrange your ships). Also you need enough scanner tech (Neutron Scanners) or the missiles will tend to miss.
     
  4. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Chieftain

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    Thanks a lot Blake, the strategy looks really sensible, and I guess the idea is that if you bring enough missiles, the Guardian's lightning shield and nice jammer are just gravy. Early in a MOO2 game, it's all about the 2-shot missile racks. I guess if you want Orion early, it's the only real way. (Besides maybe 40 Gyro destabilizer frigates for the lolz)

    Now a question about the MIRV EMG merculites... what is the trick behind the EMG part? EMG immobilizes a ship, to be sure, but pound-for-pound the EMGs are extremely heavy and expensive relative to plain MIRV missiles. Does the guardian explode if he gets immobilized?
     
  5. Blake

    Blake The AI Guy

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    It works something like this:
    The engine has a certain amount of hitpoints, it's a tiny fraction of the total hitpoints, but it's more than 1.
    After taking some damage, the engine will shut down and the Guardian will be immobilized for the turn, the internal repair will cause him to be remobilized the next combat round.
    If enough damage is dealt to the engine, the engine breaches and the Guardian pops.

    I think the total amount of damage to pop him is like 4 EMG Merculite Warheads, so actually a single MIRV Merculite warhead will do the trick except for that pesky lightning shield so you need redundancy, at least 24 Warheads (6 MIRV missiles) to be sure of the kill. I'm not sure if MIRV's split before or after the lightning field, but I don't think I've ever seen the guardian immobilized when using MIRV Merculites (it's only when using EMG Pulsons that I've managed to immobilize without killing him).


    Basically with MIRV and EMG it's like this, EMG is I think +300% (4x) cost, while MIRV is +100% (2x) Cost. Together it's only +400% (x5) cost, so the MIRV is practically a freebie on top of EMG. Also throw on ECCM because it's also a freebie but fast/armored don't help for point blank.
     
  6. Murky

    Murky Chieftain

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    I just wait until I have zort+phasors+cybertronic. Never tried the EMG route.
     
  7. Kadence

    Kadence Chieftain

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    Here's a strategy I've used. It's a modified version of Boba Fett's "Minimal Guardian Fleet" from his FAQ.

    You need the following techs:
    * Construction: Reinforced Hull, Battle Pods, Fast Missile Racks (2,430 Research Points needed for this path)
    * Chemistry: Merculite Missiles, Zortrium Armor (4,050 RP)
    * Computers: Emissions Guidance System (2,950 RP)
    The total RP needed is 10,730.

    You need two Cruisers and two Destroyers. These will all be missile ships; 2-shot racks of missiles only, to save space. After the battle you'll probably have one of the Destroyers left.

    Cruiser 1:
    * 3 2-shot Merculites, ARM [call this A]
    * 6 2-shot Merculites, MIRV, ARM [call this B]
    * 2 2-shot Merculites, ECCM, ARM, FST [call this C]
    * Battle Pods
    * Fast Missile Racks
    * Reinforced Hull
    Cruiser 2 (EMG Cruiser):
    * 1 2-shot Merculite, ARM
    * 6 2-shot Merculites, MIRV, ECCM
    * 1 2-shot Merculite, MIRV, ECCM EMG
    * Battle Pods
    * Fast Missile Racks
    * Reinforced Hull
    Two Destroyers:
    * 2-shot Merculites, MIRV, ECCM, EMG
    * Battle Pods
    * Reinforced Hull

    Note that if you don't have Shields, you can change those quantities of missiles on the cruisers from 3/6/2 and 1/6/1 to 4/6/1 and 2/6/1 respectively.

    The tactical combat:
    1) Both Destroyers fire, then move forward as much as they can (I'm assuming a 10 space combat speed)
    2) Cruiser 1 moves 1 space straight forward, then fires both racks of each "A" and "B" (disable "C" for the moment). Then it moves 2 spaces straight forward and fires both racks of "C". Then it moves forward as much as it can (for some reason this last movement seems to help the ship not explode, even though it increases the damage taken to 300 from 280).
    3) Cruiser 2 (the EMG Cruiser) movies 1 space straight forward, then fires everything it has.
    4) Hope that when the Guardian destroys your ships, they won't explode and take out your missiles!
    5) The Destroyer on the bottom fires. Then the Destroyer on top probably needs to move 1 space diagonally closer to the Guardian and fires - you want these missiles to be in the same bunch as the previously fired missiles that are furthest away from the Guardian.

    There's a bit of luck involved, with hoping your ships don't explode and take out your missiles (but that usually won't happen), and also the missiles might be vaporized by the Guardian's Lightning Field. But from my experience this strategy has a success rate something around 50%, and it's pretty inexpensive - you can do it early, and the Cruisers should only cost about 600 Production, while the Destroyers should cost about 150. So about 1,500 production total.
     
  8. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Chieftain

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    50% odds is pretty brutal. But I appreciate you replicating this strategy here. Employing two additional cruisers (1200 pickaxes) would probably cinch the victory... I'd definitely build a little overkill to justify the research costs of this strategy. Maybe that's just me though-- I'm a devotee of the -20 ship defense race trait. This trait makes for a race with a lot of internal strength, but some things like the Guardian's PD particle beams will bite the hell out of you. Anyways, I promise myself to give these missile ships a try when I get around to my next game.
     
  9. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    My strategy for space monsters changes from game to game. I usually use Guardian to cleanup my fleet. At some free (peaceful) time I send all my ships to it. It usually cleans up a lot of the small ones and makes the fleet more manageable. It also starts the cleanup from captured (non-upgradable and soon to be obsolete) ships.

    One thing for sure: I always make sure to have a total of 10+ tractor beams in the fleet. Preferably in 2 titans. That way almost all attacks hit, and it makes a big difference.
     
  10. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    It would be better to scrap those ships and gain the BC, rather than let them be destroyed. I do not lose any ships to the guardian and only use 5 or 6 large ships with phasors.

    If you wait for titan, a tech I may not get, some other race may kill it first.
     
  11. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    I know you are right, but except for gaining alien technology, I don't scrap ships (clicking the scrap button is less fun than using it in battle)

    And I always play Impossible 8 races, always go to Orion right after building my first titan. Still, no computer player has ever beaten me to the Guardian. I figured the AI is too reluctant to attack it. Besides, the stupid AI doesn't know how to synchronize the arrival of ships to a target, so quite often it throws fleets at Guardian (or me) in small groups.

    But yeah, for multiplayer you are right.

    Why wouldn't you get the titan, do you play uncreative?
     
  12. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    I will always take ground batteries over titans. I do not need titans for anything, but batteries often discourage the AI from attacking a planet. They also take too long to build.

    I do not capture ships, unless I have Loknar.

    I find that if I wait until if have phasors and deep core researched, the AI may hit Orion. This is comon, if I cannot attack it soon after getting 5 or 6 battleships upgrade with the phasors or Orion is not close to me.

    It is not like Moo1, where they never attack Orion.
     
  13. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    I guess we have different styles.

    - I play production focused, so Titans don't take too long for me.

    - I never prefer planetary defense techs. I might later trade/steal them, but I have almost never researched ground batteries, armor barracks, fighter garrison, missile base etc. I get good engines, and rely on the fleet for defense. Batteries might discourage the enemies, but Titans kill/capture them, which is more useful.

    - The most useful combat ship design for me has always been one with Tractor Beams and Neutron Blasters. Capturing enemy ships is the easiest way to acquire technology and increase fleet size. This is also why I find Creative to be the most useless racial trait.

    - I rarely wait for phasors to go into Orion.
     
  14. Murky

    Murky Chieftain

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    I couldn't get's Kadence's method to work so this is what I did.

    First, a helpful race pick.

    +50 Beam Attack
    Warlord
    Trans Dimensional
    Repulsive
    Omni

    RPs/Techs

    80 Reinforced Hull
    150 Auto-factories
    150 Research labs
    150 Space Academy
    250 Battlepods
    250 Augmented Engines
    900 Ion Drive (probably could skip this one)
    250 Tritanium
    650 Merculite Missile
    1150 Iridum Fuel Cells
    2000 Zortium Armor
    400 Neural Scanners
    900 Holo Sims
    1500 EMG
    150 Fusion Beam
    250 Battle Scanner
    900 Neutron Scanner
    1150 Graviton Beam
    1500 Sub-Space Communications
    ----
    12580 RPs.

    3+ Battleships with rhull, b-pods, aug-engines, battle scanners and graviton beams. All the gravitons should be modified with heavy and continous

    2+ Battleships with rhull, b-pods, aug-engines and merculite missiles. First rack is armored and fast, 2nd rack is mirv, arm, eccm, fast and the 3rd is mv, ccm, arm, EMG and fast. Distribute the missles to be 1/4th 1st rack, 1/2 2nd and 1/4th EMG. Have alteast 2 mv, EMGs.

    Charge the Guardian with all the battleships, targeting one shield side. With a bit of luck and good timing the shield should drop just before the missiles hit. The ship targeted by the torps should run because it will explode.
     
  15. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    I never viewed killing Guardian as a primary goal, it is just something I happen to do on the way.
     
  16. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Like I said I do not need titan, so may as well take batteries. Do not use tractor as I do not want to capture crappy AI ships. I do not use the blaster either, not worried about marines.

    You can go to Orion whenevr you want as long as you have found it. I see no need to go sooner as it will wait till then. Just not a whole lot longer.

    There are any number of ways to win the game.
     
  17. TheArchduke

    TheArchduke Feeling at home..

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    Puzzling, I always thought that:

    Neutron Blaster+Tractor Beam+Troop Pods, is the best way to snatch AI´s techs.
     
  18. TheArchduke

    TheArchduke Feeling at home..

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    Ion Drives do the trick.

    Have 6 Cruisers with 2 EMG MIRV and 2 MIRV Merculites. let all of them shoot first and then move. You loose one. Then you destruct two for the shields and then you need about 20 points of damage to the engine. Zortrium Reinforced Hulls are needed though.
     
  19. Blake

    Blake The AI Guy

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    Anyone have thoughts on the best fast-guardian kill race?

    One of the challenges is avoiding being spy-raped for all the techs. This makes a traditional fast-techer like DemoLith more than slightly foolhardy. You can do it with a race like that, but you might have to pray you DON'T get XArmor, because once the AI has XArmor Loknar is not nearly as effective.

    I tend to think that the best options are Aqua/Creative or Aqua/Unified, with the remaining stuff being research boosts... LHW+AHW is always a good start.
    Not the best research races, but offering a balanced approach without a spy penalty.
     
  20. TheArchduke

    TheArchduke Feeling at home..

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    You can´t really plan on being close to Orion, I guess.;)

    But with my current game my Alkaris stayed on three worlds and build 6 cruisers and destroyed the Guardian. But I had to wait for 20-30 spies until I could seriously muster a anti-spy force.

    But even if they spy, the freebie ship of Orion by Loknar is more then enough to overrun 2 opponents, totally.
     

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