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Moors stability

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by jorissimo, May 13, 2019.

  1. jorissimo

    jorissimo Chieftain

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    Has anyone had any success with the Moors on the latest version? I never have any positive stability playing as this civ and collapse in 1130 after conquering two Spanish cities and one Mali city. Aside from that I have my three cities in the Maghreb and Tripoli. Even liberating Madrid after vassalizing Spain doesn't help. The UHV seems impossible with such stringent stability modifiers.
     
  2. bluepotato

    bluepotato Chieftain

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    I tried the Moors several times in a previous development version (1.16). You start with despotism so use it, whip outside your core and emphasize growth inside your core. I remember having to starve Carthage, too. That city can get large and hurt your expansion stability quite a bit. Also, you should build jails everywhere.
    You could also try to improve your domestic stability, in the middle ages you can easily stay on shaky with a -24 expansion stability penalty (especially with Hinduism...). I found that Islam works quite well with despotism/slavery/theocracy/vassalage/merchant trade (or even regulated trade, doesn't matter)/tributaries. Theocracy alone gives you +10 religious unity points if you have Islam in every single city (and no other religion), to achieve this you can either train persecutors or sack heathen cities (I recommend the latter, persecutors cost a ton of hammers and are generally less effective). Slavery gives you a bonus with Islam, despotism gives you a bonus with slavery, tributaries gives you a bonus with vassalage (and vassalage is OP in the current version).
     
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  3. jorissimo

    jorissimo Chieftain

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    But how do you get the four great people in time without Monasticism? And have money to research Doctrine? And build jails while having to build barracks and troops to take out Spain and Mali? With research on zero from the beginning I am hardly able to whip/buy a minimal army to take on Spain and Mali, while having to generate great people (and even with Monasticism I'm not able to do that in time). Am I missing something?
     
  4. catacau

    catacau Chieftain

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    I first build a army with Monasticism, Citizenship, Despotism and Conquest. Without barracks or jails, was able to capture Madrid and then Barcelona with a army of 2 heavy swordman, 1 skirmishman, 1 trebuchet, 3 knights, 2 horse archers and 2 heavy Spearman (or infantry). And to conquer Mali, 1 Knight and 3 Camel archers. While i was building a army I always kept Cordoba and Morroco with 2/3 specialist. After I conquer then I switched to stable Civics and build jails.

    Tip: in the beginning go with 2 swordman to conquer the north African city close to Tunisia or Lybia, she will be able to produce a settler.
     
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  5. jorissimo

    jorissimo Chieftain

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    So you skip infrastructure in peripheral cities and go straight to unit building. In addition to getting some basic military techs, upgrading the swordsmen and spearmen. And then you build 4 knights, 3 camel archers, a treb and a skirmisher. Got it. And then as soon as you conquer, you switch to the civics mentioned by bluepotato.
     
  6. catacau

    catacau Chieftain

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    I also build Nora (aqueduct equivalent for the moors) in all cities. In Cordoba and Morroco I also built temple, forge and a library for the specialists slots. And bring a crossbowman for the Spanish horse archers, I forgot to mention him in my army report, he was the first to enter Madrid and stood there, guardind the city, while the army was healing or going to conquer Barcelona.

    If you can bait the Spanish to fight you in a plain field will make your life easier. In my game, Spain attacked me as soon as I approached Madrid through the horse tile, this way I was able to capture Madrid in the following turn.
     
  7. jorissimo

    jorissimo Chieftain

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    Okay, I have officially given up on this UHV. I tried again using you guys' advice. I managed to conquer everything, adopting the civics you mentioned, ending up around -17 stability (collapsing) in 1200. Spain seems to be programmed to declare war after the peace treaty expires, triggering a stability check and collapse. I reloaded and gave all of my non-core cities away. Liberated Mali's cities, gave Madrid to Portugal and gave my North-African cities (except for Marrakus which is core) to Spain. My stability bounces back to only -1 that turn. Then, the next turn, Spain declares war and I collapse anyway! I was starving all of my peripheral cities, sacked the Spanish cities, changed civics, liberated cities, but it just didn't matter. Whatever I did, it was wrong. I'm not sure whether this is something to do with the latest version, but this UHV is simply broken.
     
  8. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    Sometimes you are doomed to collapse, no matter what you do that turn. That is because during the previous check, a countdown in the storesData (playerData[iPlayer].iTurnsToCollapse) set. Is that is the case, you will always collapse the after the countdown expires, no matter how much you improved your stability. IIRC there is no way to avoid complete collapse once that countdown is set.
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    That countdown is only ever set one turn in advance. It's to make sure that a collapse always happens at the beginning of the turn.
     
  10. jorissimo

    jorissimo Chieftain

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    I guess just don't really understand the stability system, which it's pretty counter-intuitive tbh. I had already skimmed through the stability guide once, but I'm reading it more closely now. Apparently acquiring a vassal improves stability, something I would never have guessed. So conquering cities deteriorates stability, but vassalizing an entire civ doesn't. The system also encourages starvation of peripheral cities, but this starvation does not affect happiness, which is kind of weird as starvation used to be the main driver of revolutions. Think about the "bah, let them eat cake" quote from the French revolution, or the Russian revolution's main direct promise: bread and peace. Taking into consideration Maslow's pyramid, having food security should be at the bottom, while entertainment and luxury resources should be at the top. Still, a lack of the latter affects stability while the former doesn't.

    What I'm going to try regarding my Moors game is to load again from 1100 AD, just before declaring war. Then I will actually accept Mali's and Spain's capitulation to get the positive stability check. After 1200 I will then liberate their cities, which would also get rid of religious disunity, and then switch to Theocracy as soon as I get to Doctrine.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
    Imp. Knoedel and 1SDAN like this.
  11. Visard

    Visard Chieftain

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    That is a good point, maybe a city should get temporary unhappiness when it loses population from starvation.
     
  12. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    That sounds like an easy way to create a downwards spiral if a city loses population too many times.
    Perhaps instability akin to how Economic Growth currently works?
     
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  13. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Imperator Knoedel the Grumpy

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    The Planetfall mod has a food riot mechanic similar to cultural revolts: Every turn a city is starving it has a chance of revolting and subsequently becoming independent.

    Whatever happened to partial collapses anyway? Why would your entire civ collapse if it's only the periphery you are exploiting?
     
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  14. jorissimo

    jorissimo Chieftain

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    I have been thinking a lot about how happiness, health and food work in civ 4. The way it works right now, happiness is the main limit to growth, which is historically really inaccurate. I think that health should replace happiness as the key restraint to growth. Health should therefore come to play a much bigger role than it currently does. It could continue to work like the current system however, where it eats into the food supply. Though I think that unhealthiness should start above four pop as a default, just like unhappiness currently does. Then every point of unhealthiness should eat up two food instead of one, effectively putting a stop to growth. Happiness could then work in a different way: rather than "it is too crowded", the main cause for unhappiness could be an imbalance between the economic value produced by the city in terms of hammers and commerce, and the amount of amenities (luxury resources, happiness buildings) the population is seeing in return for that. So it would be something like "we don't see our hard work being rewarded" or something. The penalty could then be, for instance, a cumulative 10% decrease in hammers and commerce per unhappy face, in addition to reduced stability. And then have one unhappy face per 10 hammers+commerce produced for instance.

    Furthermore, I think that food in RFC is overabundant. The player often sees themselves having to divest from food production in order not to grow unhappy, which is really a-historical. With the core-periphery stability system, which I like, this requires you to starve peripheral cities, wasting all of that precious food. In that sense, I think there should be a food transportation system similar to the civ 5 caravans. I have never liked the way the civ 5 caravans work, however, as they create food out of the blue rather than transporting it from one place to the other, and because they can only be canceled or re-routed after 30 turns. Having food be less abundant, the only way to create a populous core would to take food from the periphery and transport it to the core, at a slight loss rate representing inefficiency. The caravan/cargo ship units could work similar to those in civ 5, but should be cancleable at any moment. Having a caravan run from city A to city B, should stop city growth in city A and transfer all excess food of city A to city B, just like what happens when you produce a settler or worker, but rather than having the food be invested into a unit, it should be transferred to another city at a slight rate of inefficiency.

    Finally, with regard to starvation: rather than punishing it with unhappiness or revolts, I think that starvation should simply be something that should not be desirable for your empire's productivity, and should definitely not be encouraged.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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