1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

More Alternate Leaders?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by HoorayForSiam, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. HoorayForSiam

    HoorayForSiam Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    46
    Gender:
    Male
    Just thought I’d start a thread to see if anyone shared my interest in seeing more alternative leaders for existing civilizations, and if so which ones?

    When alternate leaders was announced as a feature of Civ VI, I was initially very excited. But after several DLC and an expansion pack there are only 2 alternate leader choices (Gorgo and Chandragupta) which is a little discouraging. So my question is, will there only be a couple of alternate leaders or is Firaxis simply waiting until the civ roster is filled out to release the others?

    To me, the unconventional leader choices in vanilla indicate the latter. There are still a few personalities missing that Civ just wouldn’t be the same without. Personally, the leaders I’m most looking forward to seeing included are:

    AMERICA

    Pre-20th Century Leader

    While I’m not against seeing Washington or Lincoln again, I would much rather have Jefferson. He is more than worthy of inclusion in the game, and his dialogue would be some of the most interesting in game, if his IRL quotes are anything to go by. Plus, he would nicely round out the Rushmore presidents now that there’s Teddy to raise Ameriker into the limelight.


    CHINA

    Literally Anyone but Wu or Mao

    I’m serious. There’s 4,000 years of Chinese history to draw from and in over two decades of Civ we’ve only ever seen 3 leaders. If Firaxis wants to go modern I see nothing wrong with Sun Yat-Sen, who has the rare honor of being well liked in both China AND Taiwan. And if they insist on choosing a woman, Cixi has tons of personality and ruled de facto in the same vein as CdM. But better yet if we get one of the emperors who reaffirmed China’s prominent role in world affairs; Taizong, Kangxi, and the Yongle Emperor being just a few of many suitable examples.


    EGYPT

    An Actual Egyptian

    Sorry, but Elizabeth Taylor just doesn’t cut it for me, and as much fun as Ramses would be again, Hatshepsut has been criminally underrepresented not only in Civ but in the popular imagination. While not exactly a household name like King Tut or Nefertiti, she was a remarkably capable leader both militarily and domestically and deserves recognition (that wax figure from Civ IV of the same name notwithstanding), and besides, who wouldn’t want to see a leader in drag? But if she’s overlooked yet again (which I suspect she will be), Akhenaten or Khufu would have some interesting religious and production bonuses, at least.


    ENGLAND

    Good Queen Bess

    I am very interested in a trade agreement with England, so long as Elizabeth is the leader. She might be a little overfamiliar to some but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t miss her. Elizabeth ticks all the boxes of being a big personality, a woman, and actually good at ruling. Additionally, she is very versatile gameplay-wise and could be taken in a totally different direction than the expansionist Victoria. The capital may be an issue, but luckily Lizzie lived in a number of castles around England during her lifetime, so choosing one of them wouldn’t be too much of a stretch.


    FRANCE

    You Alreary Know Who

    The Little General everyone loves to hate. I’ll admit, it just doesn’t feel like Civ until I’ve wiped that pretentious smirk off Napoleon’s face after sacking his last city. That said, I would have liked to see Louis XIV at some point but since we already have CdM representing the ancien régime, that seems unlikely. Again, the capital is a bit of an issue but since he was famously Corsican, I’m sure there’s some solution.


    GERMANY

    The Other Guy with the Mustache

    No, not the one you’re thinking of, as much fun as he would be to destroy. However, since I don’t see them having two Fredericks in game, and HRE is already represented, I don’t see many other viable options except Otto Von Walrus. Oh, well, at least maybe he’ll wear the pickelhaube this time.

    JAPAN

    Total Civ: Shogun

    With all the off-the-wall leader choices in Civ VI, I’m secretly holding out for Himiko, the semi-mythical sorceress queen. I mean, if Dido made it in, why not her? But in all seriousness, if Japan gets a second leader, and that’s a pretty big if, it will most likely definitely 100% be a samurai. And since Oda got his turn in Civ V, I’m leaning towards our cranky old friend Tokugawa making a comeback.


    SPAIN

    “Saint Holier-Than-Thou” Isabella

    Yes, we already get a fair share of bible thumping from Felipe the Human Chin. Though all his swashbuckling still isn’t enough to inspire the “nun-with-a-ruler” level of Catholic terror as Isabella. Not to mention she presided over two of the most significant events in world history - the discovery of the New World and the expulsion of the last Muslim stronghold from Europe. Oh, and her marriage to Ferdinand of Aragon literally created the modern country of Spain, which should be more than enough to earn Isabella a spot in the Civ roster.


    ROME

    Why Don’t We All Just Stab Caesar?

    I don’t have anything against Julius and Augustus Salad, but these same two guys back to back ad nauseum just made me all the more grateful for Trajan. And if we do get more alternate leaders, there’s no way Rome isn’t going to get one. Over its millenium or so of glory, Rome was blessed (and cursed) by some of the most animated rulers in history. A flamboyantly gay Hadrian, a moody Marcus Aurelius, and a pious Constantine would all be fantastic. As would Nero and Caligula, who will never be included for obvious reasons. However, my intuition tells me the lack of a Byzantium civ or any other suitable capitals for Rome means that in all likelihood Constantine is going to be the alternate, based out of Constantinople, natch.


    RUSSIA

    Vladimir. Vladimirovich. Putin.

    Just kidding, although poison and the ability to rig elections would be great additions to Civ VI. The obvious choice would be Catherine, with a focus on military and social policies as opposed to Peter’s affinity for science and culture. However, I would be pleasantly surprised by a dark horse like Ivan the Terrible or Vladimir Lenin (and, yes, I know the odds of a Soviet leader in game are very slim, but Lenin isn’t nearly as reviled as Stalin is and he’s been a Civ leader before).

    Is there anyone I’m forgetting? Anyone you disagree with including? Let me know!
     
    Haig and Stomper66 like this.
  2. Stomper66

    Stomper66 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Gender:
    Male
    Some good ideas there. Even though I liked Elizebeth and Napoleon in Civ5 I think every new alternate leader should be one we've never seen before. I would suggest Henry V for England and Cardinal Richelieu for France if we really did want to see something different. For England and France the Longbowman and Musketeer should also make a return and they are actualy relevant to these leaders.

    If one of the civs on that list got to have an alternate leader I'd say Egypt probably deserve one more than most. Even though I like personally have no problem with Cleopatra I don't think that her being part Greek and late in Egypts timeline goes down well with a lot of fans. I don't know enough about Egypts history to suggest an alternate leader but perhaps a Pharaoh who presided over several construction projects or waged a lot of wars could be used, with the leader bonus suited toward these.

    Apart from that I'm not that eager to see alternative leaders for the other civs. I really don't like the character design for Harald Hardrada so i'd like to see him re-designed like Roosevelt was. Changes would include blonde or grey hair, bigger beard, big axe, physically as big or nearly as big as Gilgabro, actually scary looking. Historically the guy was probably the toughest leader in the game but at the moment he is not convincing. I like the diplomacy screen background though.
     
    Socrates99 and HoorayForSiam like this.
  3. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    974
    Location:
    Ping Island
    I don't think the capital thing is an issue at all. Two leaders can have the same capital, it's just that if they're both in the same game one will get a random city, like in civ 4, no? I'd rather that then an alternate French or English leader not having Paris or London as a capital.
     
    Zaarin and HoorayForSiam like this.
  4. HoorayForSiam

    HoorayForSiam Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    46
    Gender:
    Male
    Since, this thread was moved to Ideas and Suggestions and there’s already a similar thread here, I guess that renders this one kind of pointless. Thread closed, I guess. :-(
     
  5. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,903
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    I like most of your suggestions, but I'd prefer Adams for the US and God forbid we get Napoleon the Dull foisted upon us again. With an Italian already currently ruling France, I don't think we need another Italian; we deserve a proper representative of the Ancien Régime: Louis XIV, Philippe Auguste, Francis I...Henry IV would be fun, but too close to CdM.
     
  6. IgorS

    IgorS Your ad could be here!

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,169
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rishon
    I think including alternate leaders is a must in Civ VI given the fact each civ has both a civ ability and a leader ability. Unfortunately, Firaxis has clearly decided not to invest too much in research, and most of the civs and leader designs in the game are poor, to say the least. Having said that, I should add that this is pretty much the only thing that really bothers me about Civ VI, which is otherwise a great game.
     
  7. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,385
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I've already mentioned in another thread that I would love Lenin for Russia and Louis XIV for France. He could get Versailles as his capital which is probably the only other viable option for France.
     
  8. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Messages:
    610
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Belgium
    The alt capitals should be no problem. Every medieval/renaissance king stems from a noble house, use that house's home seat as the Alt Capital (e.g.: Lancaster for Elizabeth I). Or use the royal palace's location if that differs from the original location (ie: make Victoria's capital Windsor (or Hannover lmao) if you add another English Monarch to the party). The actually restrictive feature is the Historical Agenda, as it's difficult to create new, original agenda's at this stage anymore.

    Personally, I don't think many alt leaders should be added at all; If there's an option for a new Civ or an Alt Leader, I will always pick the new Civ (even if that Civ is *shudders* Canada). But whatever, I'll share my Top Five Civs I'd Give An Alt Leader (subtitle: Number Four Will Amaze You)

    1. FRANCE
    Cathérine de Medici may be a controversial leader pick (she was kind of inept), but this is not why I think France should get an alt leader. Cathérine is a very specialised leader in terms of game mechanics, meaning she good at one thing (Espionage), which she does very well, but it's also fairly one dimensional. The vision Civ has on France is very Americanized: Most Americans think of "Haute Cuisine" and the Eiffel Tower when you mention the country, but the main reason why France managed to become a cultural hub in the first place is because they managed to carve themselves a powerful empire in the middle of European squabbling states with brute force and Authority. Their culture is the product of luxury, as well as the need to assert themselves as superior to the other around them. This angle hasn't been explored by Civ yet, and I think it's time they did.

    Leader Suggestion 1: Charlemagne (Alt Capital: Aix-la-Chapelle or Reims)
    France is traditionally a militaristic Civ with religious impulses and an early leader with abilities to faith and army could reflect this. Clovis is another option (with the same abilities), due to Charlie's similarities with that other Holy Roman Emperor currently in the game.

    Leader Suggestion 2: Louis XIV (Alt Capital: Versailles)
    While I feel like Louis XIV is fairly one-note leader pick ("what can he do? Hmmm, how about culture and wonders" -- literally every poster here), I also think he's THE clear French pick (even moreso than the little corporal). He is indisputably be THE best pick for a cultural France and could come with abilities that boost culture adjacency bonuses or great people birth rates, which in my opinion would synergize very well with the bonuses Grand Tour provides.


    Other Options: Clovis, Charles Martel, any Hundred Years' War monarch.

    2. PERSIA
    I don't see Persia on this list and that surprises me. Why Persia do you ask? Because Persia is way more than the Achaemenid Dynasty, that's why. They are an ancient nation that spanned millennia and has evolved into many interesting empires and dynasties. It about time those get representation as well.


    Alt Leader Suggestion 1: Abbas I (Alt Capital: Isfahan)
    A great Safavid leader, who did great things to establish Persia as one of the three gunpowder empires (alongside Mughal, who won't be added, and the Ottomans who might be added later). Cyrus is supposed to be a schemer and a diplomat. Abbas didn't really play like that. Like Cyrus, was a gifted diplomat, conqueror and ruler, BUT also openly ruthless and cruel (unlike Cyrus), providing a good contrast in nuance between them.

    Alt Leader Suggestion 2: Mithridates I (Alt Capital: Ctesiphon)
    I assume there are more popular picks for Parthian leaders, but I really like Mithridates I because he contrasts very well to Cyrus! Cyrus is, at least in this game's warped narrative, a schemer and backstabber. Mithridates on the other hand was obsessed with Greek Culture and tried to build alliances with more refined cultures. He would be a great leader with bonuses from alliances (maybe multiple research alliances? maybe random eureka's or inspirations from signing an alliance?) and could bring with him a horse archer UU that would give Persia more militaristic flexibility as well.

    3. EGYPT
    I don't actually mind Cleo as a leader pick that much (I think she was a pretty good Pharaoh, especially given the circumstances she had to rule in. I'd compare her to Seondeok in that regard), but I really dislike the portrayals that depict her as a man-devouring, lustful, wily, overdramatic evil succubus from hell because that's just white-washing history and i'm NOT here for it!! Either way, adding a millenia old culture to a historical game and having them be ruled by their chronologically last [Greek] monarch is also just white-washing history, not to mention that Cleo's LUA is kinda bleh, so I'm here to fix it.

    Alt Leader: Any non-Ptolemaïc leader (Alt Capital: Waset or Men-Nefer)
    I'd say Hatshepsut here, but I doubt she's a realistic choice because she's 1) female 2) her most well-known undertaking as a monarch is also related to trade routes, meaning you'd just add another woman with a slightly different Trade Route bonus (Hatty could get amenities from trade routes for instance), so i'm leaving it open here. Egypt was a deeply religious nation, so a faith-based bonus would be cool (Akhetaten?), since growth and industry are already covered by other bonuses. Culture (Khufu?) and military (Ramesses II?) are other options that make sense. Personally, I care very little for who the alt leader is, as long as they provide a nice alternative to Cleo's somewhat mediocre LUA.


    4. ENGLAND
    Even with a city list that mostly consists of Industrial Era cities (a better list than the one England used in previous installments, which I found fairly historically inaccurate) and the presence of Scotland in the game, it kinda doesn't sit well with me that England are led by a BRITISH monarch... like... okay, but... just don't call it England? :tard:. Either way, Victoria presents a very one-dimensional, jingoistic view of Britain ("The coloniser who ruled the world... BUT THEY COULDN'T RULE THE USA!!! HA GOD BLESS AMERICA!!") and an alt leader without a focus on RULE BRITANNIA would be a welcome addition

    Alt Leader: Henry VIII (Capital London or Windsor or Lancaster, w/e.)
    There are plenty of good choices (Elizabeth, Alfred the Great), but my pick is Henry VIII who is not only a huge historical name but also provides an angle of England we haven't seen in Civ. His most notable feature is of course that he tried to divorce his first wife after she had failed to bear him a son and the pope was like "um you can't do that" "who says I can't?" "the Catholic Church" "ok so... then I just make my own church? cya ttyn popeman" and the rest is history. Laughs aside, Henry VIII was a very well-read theological philosopher and The English Reformation would make an excellent base for a LUA, allowing him to modify the beliefs any religion in his lands to suit his own needs (and recruit religious units with means other than faith - production, maybe?). Alternative options include a naval recruitment bonus, which is standard and dull, but suitable as it was under Henry VIII's reign that England built their powerful navy. There are certainly options there and it would introduce a leader everyone heard of, but hasn't been a part of the franchise yet.


    5. CHINA
    China is pretty much the same deal as Persia in that Chinese culture has known many empires, and not all of them have been represented in this franchise. Personally, I think China doesn't need an alt leader as Qin is pretty good, but it would be nice to have a different time period represented, with abilities that do something other than building Wonders or waging war.

    Alt leader: Ming or Han Emperor (Alt Capital: Beijing (Ming) or Luoyang (Han))
    The Ming and Han Dynasties are the two most prominent Chinese dynasties left within a single representative in Civ (Wu Zetian counts as Tang, the Song are fairly obscure and the Qing weren't ethnically Chinese) and that sucks because they are probably the two "best" imperial chinese dynasties? I'm not sure who would lead them, but Ming could be culture or economy driven (Gold from naval combat, +2culture for every luxury a city gets amenities from), contrasting with Qin, while a Han Emperor could be science focused (Eureka's from Historical Events that provide +3 era score or more?). It's a low priority for me compared to the rest, but if this is what we get I wouldn't be ungrateful.


    The rest: KEEP THEM AS IT IS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
    Zaarin likes this.
  9. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    691
    1: France- Phillip Augustus (Philippe Auguste) a more martial take on France but can still be quite sneaky.
    2: Egypt- Djoser, wonder and/or great person spammer for Egypt.
    3: Netherlands - Johan de Witt, commercial powerhouse Netherlands.
    4: England- Henry V, Longbowmen return.
    5: China- Tang Taizong, Less wonder spam, more science or governor bonuses. Even could be conquest focused China.
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  10. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,903
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Akhenaten was the man, Akhetaten was his capital. :p I'd personally love to see him. He'd be someone different (very different), and Civ6 with its "big personality" focus would be a great fit for him.

    Eh, if we're going with a Tudor I think Elizabeth I really is the only choice. Henry VIII is famous and had a big personality, but as a ruler he was definitely less successful than his also-big-personality daughter. If we're going with a king, there are some great Medieval options, like Henry II or Henry V or Edward I Longshanks (he and Bobby will get along just swimmingly ;) )--or even William the Conqueror.
     
    Guandao likes this.
  11. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    Abroad
    Senusret III for Pharaoh of Egypt. The god king worshipped by his enemies and deified in his lifetime by Egyptians would bring some much needed military might (and extra economic power) to the Egyptian Empire (which some people forget wasn't just full of artists and priests, but also mighty warriors). Rameses II has been in before, and I suspect Hatshepsut wouldn't be picked as the second leader since Egypt already has a female leader (they did two male leaders for India, but it is tricky to find notable Indian female rulers who ruled either de facto or in their own right, other than say, the extremely controversial Indira Gandhi).

    I would say Catherine de Medici wasn't an inept leader of France (though she did make key mistakes), and is controversial not for being inept but rather for her role in the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (which was intended as a mafia gang-like takeout of key Huguenot enemies, but ended in a massacre of many innocents). (She's also controversial for being Italian, and was controversial for that even in her day, perhaps in part because she had a pronounced Italian accent when speaking French (to quote Leonie Frieda's excellent biography of Catherine de Medici, "'The foreign woman' (Catherine de Medici) ...spoke French with an indelible Italian accent"). Civ VI accurately portrays this aspect of her, which is a wondrous historical detail in a game full of weird alien/Aardman Animations portrayals (Gandhi, Alexander, Pedro II).) As to the perceived ineptitude of CdM, Catherine had notable successes and pragmatic political moves as well (including Catherine successfully rallying the bitterly divided Catholic and Huguenot (Protestant) French to defeat English invaders at Le Havre--Catherine was happy, Elizabeth I was livid). [But I do think Cardinal Richelieu would have been a better fit for the LA Catherine currently has, since the French state under him was an actual intelligence-agency obsessed state (much as Elizabeth I's was), and he had extensive foreign spy networks. Catherine's spies were largely domestic. Henri IV would be my personal favorite for France's next leader in Civ VII--no leader started out his reign more hated and ended his reign more loved, he was a capable warrior and diplomat, and ended the Religious Wars of France.]

    I do think France's popular image as a place of high culture wasn't necessarily tied to its (during Napoleon's time certainly powerful) empire...for example, and to tie Catherine de Medici more to the popular image of France and its status as a cultural hub, as you mention--during CdM's time, France was relatively weak and precariously positioned to end up in war not only civil but also international (Spain was considered a looming threat). Nevertheless, during CdM's time, Frace was the origin of significant French culture; the first ballet, for example, came during Catherine's time, and she may have brought perfumery to France, as well as high heels (and her ban on thick waists may have triggered the popularity of corsets, but many other examples abound. So it is a bit odd that she doesn't get a cultural ability per se to tie her to France's bonus, but perhaps it would have been too OP to do that (and she is, for better or worse, famous based on Protestant propaganda depicting her as a cruel occultist poisoner essentially, hence her "Black Queen" agenda and her LUA, even though the Flying Squadron was likely not as scandalous as we might think).

    Agreed! But for better or worse Cyrus, Darius and their ilk are more popularly known, and therefore more popularly portrayed (similarly, we've never had a ruler from the early Roman Republic as such, because that's not commonly how Rome is imagined; nor did we have any early Heian/Kamakura era Japanese leaders in Civ until Hojo Tokimune appeared in Civ VI in a stunning surprise, because most people think of the triple daimyos (Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa) primarily when they think of Japan, along with WWII leaders who are controversial for obvious reasons).

    Might be possible to see a medieval Persian ruler at least in a future Firaxis-designed Civ scenario or two though; one can hope, anyway.

    I vote for Henry V. He had a truly impressive armada of ships (including Henry V's flagship, Grace Dieu), won the famous battle of Agincourt, and nearly took the French crown. And the Shakespeare allusions are just an added bonus. And Elizabeth is overrated anyway (foreign policy failures, domestic economic issues), though I love her and consider her overall a reasonably powerful leader. :)

    That being said, I don't think England really needs a second leader. We've had a European civ with 2 leaders (Greece), an Asian civ with 2 leaders (India), and now I think it's time for an African civ (likely will be Egypt). I wouldn't mind China getting Kangxi Emperor (arguably the most science-obsessed of any Chinese emperor, and inarguably among its most successful rulers), but perhaps he's better saved for a future Civ game.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
    Guandao likes this.
  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,903
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    I'd love to see Henry V, but I'll truck no affronts to Good Queen Bess. :love:

    But Victoria was such an awful choice, and her portrayal is awful on top of it! :cry: Though I want a second leader for France more than England, even though I've become quite fond of CdM's in-game persona.

    Egypt also needs a second ruler and I'll take just about anyone short of Tutankhamun. :p
     
    Guandao likes this.
  13. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,077
    Location:
    South Wales
    Any civ where an alternate leader could give a different emphasis to that civ would be good.
    To me Greece doesn't need 2 leaders who both give a bonus to culture

    I'd quite like Akhenaten for a more religious Egypt, Edward I or III for England, Philipe Auguste for France and Nader Shah for Persia (preferably with zamburaks as his UU)
     
  14. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    Abroad
    Well, I sympathize (she is one of my favorite historical figures), even though I still think her rather overrated as a ruler. :p

    I don't think Victoria was too awful a choice--she is by far the most well known British monarch (even if she arguably had a great deal less power than some rulers holding sway over far less land in medieval times). I like her war declaration and her "sad face" expression when she's unhappy, but I do think her voice actress could have been better. Her voice, like Civ V's Elizabeth, sounds a bit...mechanical or canned somehow.

    I do think CdM has one of the most memorable in-game personas, even if it was somewhat ahistorical. While Catherine had her ruthless moments, she wasn't quite the spymaster Machiavellian villain popular culture made her out to be, as shown for example in La Reine Margot (1994), where CdM is scarily portrayed as a manipulator and murderer (clip of CdM at 3:47 mark where she plots, trigger warning for content before 3:36, as some men (no idea who) assault Margot). [The actress who portrays CdM scarily well in La Reine Margot CdM is the late Italian actress Virna Lisi, who won Best Actress in a Supporting Role (César Awards), Best Actress (Cannes Film Festival) and Best Supporting Actress (Silver Ribbon Awards).]

    But I guess going with the pop portrayal makes some sense for dramatic spice. Catherine de Medici in real life was quite charming and bold. She once visited Fort Sainte-Catherine and was inspecting the ramparts as her troops fired on rebels, and she was advised not to expose herself to danger like that. Catherine simply laughed and said "My courage is as great as yours" (which gave Leonie Frieda the title of Chapter 8 of her biography of Catherine de Medici). I do wish that had been a line of CdM's in Civ VI, but alas.

    Don't be so hasty to say that--Egyptian history is full of some truly dreadful leaders! Or modern ones, like Nasser. Though I doubt Firaxis would put him in the main game any time soon. :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
    Guandao likes this.
  15. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    691
    Egypt needs an old or middle kingdom pharaoh. Djoser, Khufu, or Senusret III are all good.
     
  16. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,903
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Well, that's just it. I don't want the United Kingdom in game. I want the Kingdom of England. :p As for her portrayal, Victoria was well known for her staid emotional control even as a young woman. The sort of outbursts and tantrums we see from her in Civ6 would be much more appropriate for Elizabeth I.

    That's why I like her as a character, even if I don't care for her as leader of France. She comes across as simultaneously charming and sinister. Reminds me a bit of Jason Isaacs' portrayal of Captain Hook in the 2003 Peter Pan, for instance.

    Great line. They should have used that for her war declaration.

    At least they'd be Egyptian. :p

    Just because it has the same name (sort of) and occupies the same geographical location doesn't make it the same civilization. I mean, we can't even get a Sassanid in the game, and that is the same civilization as the Achaemenids. :p So I'm not worried about Firaxis doing something stupid like that. :p

    Eh, the New Kingdom is more colorful. Well, in a literal sense, Egypt in general is a little too colorful; their garish sense of color aesthetics makes hamboks and saris look subdued. :p But the New Kingdom has so many great and colorful choices: Hatshepsut (though unfortunately, as already mentioned, she overlaps too much with Cleo in too many ways, particularly in her emphasis on trade), Akhenaten, Ramesses II, Thutmose III, Amenhotep III--even a few worthy queens-consort like Nefertari or Nefertiti.
     
    Guandao likes this.
  17. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    691
    That is the whole ancient world though. The Romans and Greeks made statues of marble yes but then they painted them and dressed them in very colorful colors. Its just that over time the clothes were destroyed and the paint peeled off or completely faded. For example The Parthenon wasn't the stark white marble building which we know today. It looked much more garish and well in our sensibilities tacky. Thus the acropolis in civ 6 should look like someone spilled a whole palette of paint on the map.

    The simple fact is we know more about the New Kingdom than the Old or Middle due to a number of factors.
     
  18. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,903
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    I know. I love the Bronze Age, but they must have been colorblind. :p Our association of neutral colors with ancient cultures is due to the fact that pigments fade over time (or get weathered away if the object is exposed), plus linen can't be easily dyed (but it can still be painted! The big appeal of wool was its ready acceptance of dye, but of course the Egyptians thought sheep were filthy unwholesome creatures, as were those Semitic barbarians who tended them :p ).

    Yes, but the net result is that New Kingdom pharaohs and their queens have more colorful personalities. An older pharaoh with an impressive list of accomplishments but little in the way of personality would have suited Civ5, but Civ6's leader focus would be better served by someone whose personality doesn't need inventing. (Let's face it: anywhere Firaxis has to [or chooses to] fill in the gaps, they do a less than stellar job. Why is Tamar paranoid? Why is Chandragupta such a narcissist? The more real personality Firaxis has to work with, the less bizarre a character we get. :p )
     
    Guandao and Morningcalm like this.
  19. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    Abroad
    Yeah, the tantrums would definitely fit Elizabeth I better, but then again Civ VI has always been about exaggerating the leaders somewhat--in real international diplomacy I doubt Victoria ever threw a tantrum or looked sadly at another leader while waving her fan around, but it's all to make the characters seem more clearly happy/unhappy, etc.

    I think the real Catherine was a fairly capable leader dealing with the worst of circumstances, though she did make key mistakes. Her real character wasn't as evil as shown in game, but it does fit her popular legend I suppose.

    Or for her line when declared on. But at least she alludes to Nostradamus--that was a nice touch.

    I've always thought Egypt in-game actually somewhat colorless. I can understand we can't get unique ancient Egyptian art assets for every building (and it's good the palace and monument art differs by civ at least), but I think we are well overdue for grand Egyptian temples in the main game (and not just in a scenario). For me the leaders have always seemed as colorful for Egypt as I imagined them, but perhaps not all that realistic. Rameses II for Civ V was the closest to realistic in appearance we've had so far I think, but his speaking Arabic is a tad distracting....
     
    Stomper66, Guandao and Zaarin like this.
  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,385
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    He definitely would be interesting though. Gives Egypt a culture boost when someone else displays an Egyptian artifact in their Civilization. :mischief:

    Ever since I saw those in the scenario I wanted them to add them around the Sphinx to make the tile improvement look better. Maybe for an update if we get another leader for them.
     
    Guandao, Zaarin and Morningcalm like this.

Share This Page

Ebates: Get Paid to Shop