1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

More Asian Wonders Please

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by bioelectricclam, May 30, 2007.

  1. bioelectricclam

    bioelectricclam Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    244
    I'm wondering about Wonders: they adding in anymore Asian Wonders of the World? I was pleased to see the Great Wall in Warlords, but there are still so many Asian wonders that are being ignored - some of which simply dwarf several European wonders that have made it into the Civ genre time and time again. Here are a few suggestions:

    Todaiji (spelling may be off)
    Largest wooden structure in the world, the Todaiji originally housed an enormous bronze statue of the Buddha Daibutsu. Standing nearly three stories tall, the main pagoda was likely the second tallest building of the ancient world, after the Pyramids. It is estimated that building the statue consumed most of Japan's bronze production for several years, and left the country bankrupt for many more thereafter.

    Available w/ Priesthood. Double production speed w/ Copper. Reduces hate caused from practicing a different religion from your rivals, and doubles trade routes in the host city. Expires w/ either Construction, or if that would be too soon, maybe Engineering. +1 Great Prophet.

    Temple of Heaven
    Begun in 1420, the Temple of Heaven is one of the largest Taoist temples in the world. It served both the Ming and the Qing dynasties' emperors, and today attracts tourists the world over.

    Available w/ Divine Right (or if that is too "Wonder crowded", maybe Philosophy?). Double production speed w/ Marble. Either +1 :) per Corn, Wheat, and Rice crop (supposedly if the Emperor properly prayed at the temple of Heaven there would be a good crop for the following year; so if you have a "good crop" by having lots of grain resources, then your people would have better confidence in your leadership and thus be happier), OR (as that is probably way too powerful) maybe something like Granary grants +1 :) . Anyways, just my thoughts. +1 Great Prophet.

    The Silk Road
    The largest trade route of the ancient world, at its heyday the Silk Road stretched across Eurasia, with products such as Chinese silks reaching lands as far away as the Roman Empire. It was said that under the Mongols the Silk Road was so safe that a virgin bejeweled in gold could travel the entirety of the land portion of the route without being molested, and this was the route which Marco Polo traveled across in his historic trip across Asia. The Silk Road only lost importance with the development of oceanfaring vessels.

    Available w/ Currency. All Road improvements +1 gold and +1 movement. Obsolete w/ Navigation. +1 Great Merchant.

    Zheng He's Voyage
    Beginning in 1405 and for nearly three decades after, Zheng He undertook seven voyages of discovery for the Ming emperors of China. Traveling in a vessel nearly seven times larger than Christopher Columbus's flagship Santa Maria, Zheng He explored much of the Indian ocean and the African coastline. Some records even indicate he may have rounded the cape of Good Hope and made it through the North Atlantic into the Americas, a theory which has been put forth to help explain how it is that European maps depict the Cape of Good Hope long before any European explorers actually managed to go there themselves. Due to their immense cost and changing political climes, Zheng He's expeditions were eventually discontinued, and China would close its doors to the outside world for the next two centuries.

    Available w/ Compass. Must be built in a coastal city; requires Harbor. Allows all ships to enter Ocean tiles; +1 movement for all ships. +1 Great Merchant.

    Mausoleum of the First Emperor
    Qin Shi Huan's tomb features a collection of almost eight thousand life sized terra cotta soldiers, and remains one of the largest tombs to this day.

    Available w/ Pottery. Double production speed w/ Stone. New units recieve +1 experience points; +25% military production in host city. +1 Great Engineer.

    Cheomseongdae
    One of the world's oldest surviving scientific installations, this tower was built in the seventh century under the reign of Queen Seondeok, and was used in astronomical observations.

    Double production speed w/ Stone. Available w/ Masonry. Upon completion builder recieves 1 free Great Scientist.

    Anyways, those are my suggestions. Any thoughts? And sorry if these things ARE already in BtS; haven't been keeping up too well with Firaxis's teaser previews.
     
  2. Paideia

    Paideia Warlord

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    151
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Seems to me that there are already a lot of Asian wonder:
    Angkor Wat
    The Dai Miao
    The Kashi Wishwanath
    The Kong Miao
    The Mahabodhi
    The Taj Mahal
    The Three Gorges Dam
    Forbidden Palace
    Great Wall
    .. and I haven't even counted the Middle Eastern ones.
    + Shwedagon Paya will be added in BtS.

    I think the wonder are fairly well spread out. The only drawback being the very large number of modern wonders located in the U.S.

    EDIT: I do like the idea of adding Temple of Heaven. It's quite an iconic temple and well known throughout the world.. Maybe in a future expansion?
     
  3. LightSpectra

    LightSpectra me autem minui

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    5,518
    Location:
    Vendée
    I'm baffled at the lack of the Silk Road. C'mon Firaxis, what're you thinking?
     
  4. Paideia

    Paideia Warlord

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    151
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    :confused: I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic? The silk road can't be considered a wonder. It's a trade route. Like the ones across the Sahara.. The only element of the Silk Road that was constructed was the Royal Road built by the Persians and even that was not one structure, but a collection of fortified outpost.
     
  5. Dida

    Dida YHWH

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,426
    The Temple of Heaven is not a Daoist temple, rather, it is a Confucianist temple. Confucianism is a religion, it has certain gods that it worships and certain rituals to be performed. Most worships besides ancestral worship were, however, available only to the state. For example, no one besides the monarch might offer sacrifice to the Goddess of Earth, punishment for violation was death. It was enforced to such degree that most ordinary people didn't even know such goddess existed.
     
  6. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,361
    Location:
    Moved back into the kimchi jar
    Confuciansim is not a religion in the traditional sense; rather, it's a philosophy on how to handle relationships, how to run a bureaucracy, and how to live your daily life. It makes no direct references to gods and is more concerned with ethical living in the current world. Confucius himself when questioned about the gods and the afterlife dodged the question by saying, "How can I know about death when I still don't know about life?"

    Ancestor worship and Chinese deities came from local ancient folk religions. The emphasis of ritual ancestor veneration in Confucianism has little to do with actual "worship," but the idea that simply following established rites and rituals makes you a better person.
     
  7. Dida

    Dida YHWH

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,426
    Yeah? Then tell me what part of Rock N Roll was ever "constructed".

    Many of the games wonders were simply ridiculous, such as Status of Liberty, Broadway and Hollywood.
     
  8. Dida

    Dida YHWH

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,426
    This is wrong. Ancestor worship is an integral but not the only part of the religion of Confucianism. Confucianism performs certain rituals, believes in certain supernaturals and has a set of deities that must be pleased. Confucius himself did sound more or less agnostic, but Jesus also never claimed to be God.
    You misunderstanding about Confucianism can be attributed to 2 causes: 1) you do not know Confucianism well enough; 2) you are looking at religions through the lenses of western notion of what religion is. Western understanding of religion based on Christian notion is that it requires faith. No Eastern religion ever required faith.
    Confucianism has always been considered a "religion", throughout history, as much as Taoism and Buddhism have been considered "religion".
     
  9. bob rulz

    bob rulz Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    568
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    How are Broadway and Hollywood ridiculous wonders? You can't doubt their vast cultural influence on the modern world. The Statue of Liberty is debatable, but it was looked to as a great symbol of freedom for the American people and the millions of people who arrived at Ellis Island looking for a new life.
     
  10. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,361
    Location:
    Moved back into the kimchi jar
    Incorrect. Way off the mark.

    Yes, there is a metaphysical aspect of Confucianism, but deity worship is not required in Confucianism. Among the staunchest of Confucianists, dealing with the supernatural world has been considered superstition even in pre-industrial times, thus their aversion to folk practices, deity worship, Daoism, and Buddhism. Also it isn't entirely "ancestor worhsip" either, but more like "ancestor veneration." The "deities" are all a part of Chinese folk practice.

    "RELIGION" is a Western word; there exists no equivalent in early Chinese. Therefore, Confucianism was NOT considered a religion.

    Also, I was raised in Confucian tradition so don't tell me that I don't know Confucianism well enough and look at it through a Western lens.
     
  11. Paideia

    Paideia Warlord

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    151
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Well, you've nailed my most hated wonder in the game for the exact same reason. Technically the building in the wonder's graphic is Graceland, but that doesn't quite cut it for me. Especially when there were alternatives.. You could have had Abbey Road Studios or even Graceland itself for that matter.

    And yes, I somewhat agree with the "ridiculous" epithet. I said as much in my earlier post. I have no bones with the Statue of Liberty, but the other two are to me examples of Firaxis being a little unimaginative. Maybe not in themselves, but taken in the context of The Pentagon, Mt. Rushmore, Wall Street and West Point it does reek a little of cultural arrogance. Three or even four American wonder I could have accepted but the implication that USA is almost the only country (China, Switzerland and UK being the only exceptions) to produce modern wonders is a little tough to swallow..
     
  12. bioelectricclam

    bioelectricclam Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    244
    My apologies if the Temple of Heaven is actually Confucian...I had heard about the structure from a friend, and did my research for this little post off of wikipedia, which states that it is Taoist, not Confucian. Perhaps it can be both? As in, Taoism states that the world is perfectly balanced in a dualism fashion, so you would worship concepts such as Heaven and Earth as a taoist...but at the same time the rituals performed at the temple of Heaven were confucian in origins in that they involve ancestor worship? I'm probably way out of my league here though...
     
  13. Dida

    Dida YHWH

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,426
    Deity worship is never required in almost any Eastern religion. Buddhism in a strict sense, does not require the worshipping of Buddha. Shintoism does not require the worship of any particular deity, nor does Taoism. Confucianism does require deity worship, such as offerings made at Temple of Heavens or various others locations. Many religious rituals are required at the state level.

    Even if your point regarding religion being a western concept, it does not follow that Confucianism is not a religion. If Confucianism cannot be a religion just because there is no concept of religion as is understood in the West in ancient China, then it follows, by your logic, that China or East Asia has no religion, which is ridiculous. .

    And, my final point, just because you are raised in a Confucian culture DOES NOT mean you know Confucianism or that you can avoid looking at it through western lenses.
     
  14. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,361
    Location:
    Moved back into the kimchi jar
    Who is looking at things through a Western lens?

    We don't consider Confucianism to be a religion. It's simply a code of ethics to us.

    Rites and rituals exist simply to keep society well-ordered.

    The notion of what is "religion" is a Western concept.
     
  15. juggerxnaut

    juggerxnaut Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Messages:
    38
    taoism,buddism and confusionism interflowed from Song dynasty,which is called “three religions‘ confluence“,manifesting chinese culture’s trend of unification
     
  16. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,417
    If Rock-N-Roll can be considered a Great Wonder, Silk Road definitely qualifies.

    I also think the Grand Canal (still the longest canal in the world) and Leshan Giant Buddha (just think about turning a hill on a turbulent river into a stone buddha statue by hammers over a thousand years ago, Mt. Rushmore becomes just a kid's toy) both qualify, although it will never happen.
     
  17. Paideia

    Paideia Warlord

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    151
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Thank you :clap:
     
  18. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,361
    Location:
    Moved back into the kimchi jar
    Actually, it's called the "Three Teachings." Again, there wasn't a word for "religion."

    The Grand Canal would be nice, but there's just one little problem - there aren't any canals in Civ 4! :crazyeye: It would be nice if they'd remedy this someday.
     
  19. Dida

    Dida YHWH

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,426
    Agian, by your logic China had no religion, which is ridiculous.
     
  20. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,361
    Location:
    Moved back into the kimchi jar
    I said that there wasn't a word for "religion" not that things that the West considered "religion" did not exist. Quit twisting my words.

    Also, if you bothered to read my words earlier, my first post in response to yours was that "Confucianism was not a religion in the traditional sense." The "traditional sense" meaning the term "religion" in the Western concept of "religion."

    You said that "Confucianism" was "always considered" a religion, when it in fact was not.

    Before you judge my logic, please read my posts.
     

Share This Page