More Asian Wonders Please

[Thorrez]

While we are at it, how can Pentagon be a wonder?

What exacly is "wonder" about one regular building used by militair personal? Please enlightent me.

 

[bioelectricclam]

While we are at it, how can Pentagon be a wonder?

What exacly is "wonder" about one regular building used by militair personal? Please enlightent me.

Largest office building in the world. Boo-yah.

 

[sniprpenguin]

It's supposed to be a wonder because it is both home to the "best" military intelligence in the world and because it was the first perfect pentagon-shaped building built.

Both of those could easily be wrong...

 

[utberguy]

"Maybe not in themselves, but taken in the context of The Pentagon, Mt. Rushmore, Wall Street and West Point it does reek a little of cultural arrogance."

You were talking about modern wonders and how so many are in america and in the west.....tell me some that are from the rest of the world that were built in the last 50 years..excluding the three gorges (it isn't completed yet)

oh you forgot to count the rocknroll hollywood and the internet (with al gore on it)

 

[sniprpenguin]

Everybody is arrogant in some way. It is just another falliability of mankind. Deal wit it.

 

[carecrow]

Who is looking at things through a Western lens?

We don't consider Confucianism to be a religion. It's simply a code of ethics to us.

Rites and rituals exist simply to keep society well-ordered.

The notion of what is "religion" is a Western concept.

Umm, isn't that what religion is? IMO I think they qualify as such, whether or not they had this notion. After all, all of these other "actual" religions have codes of ethics which if followed were supposed to create a well ordered society. A religion can be simply a system of beliefs that one is dedicated to, not necessarily a deity/ies, whether its a dedication to the belief that there is a hierarchy in which one has there place and must fulfill their obligations to whom ever in which one is led to personal salvation based on morality not piety. Or if its a dedication to the belief that one must worship a god and his little book.

And I'm all for all of the wonders, except the silk road, and I'm kind of iffy on Zheng He's voyage. I'm against hate Silk Road because thats exceptionally decentralized, it would be like building the Trans-Sahara route, or Mediterranean trade. If the Silk Road were just one road paved with gold, I might find such a wonder sound, but since it isn't, no. At least with the others like Hollywood or Graceland they're a place and they have/had significant impact with Western culture, namely the USA, but the Silk Road spans a continent. Even the ones like universal suffrage or theory of evolution, its kind of like a research project, but it's not actually research, once built, you establish that the concept was born there.

Too long, don't bother Although a good read on my idea for trade routes and a possible Silk Road

I think that there should be some sort of way to look at not just naval routes, but land routes and that it would be awesome if a road was so traveled that it became of a legendary status and thus a wonder for all who had a city on it, now how something might become heavily traded like that is, say you have a city which is say the focal point where from that city extends a road to a different civilization, this focal point is such because it has all the resources of your civilization and is the only way for the other one to access it, thus it becomes a major trade city supposing these resources are in demand. The roads with the shortest route between that city and the one with the actual resource are minor routes. Now say that you have another city on the other side of your civilization and you just established a route to a civilization near it. The shortest route between those two cities now becomes a major trading road and each civilization gains trade benefits from this major connection. Of course, it always pays to be the middle man and as one you receive full trade income from these routes and hell you may be getting a little more 'cause your taxing it. The two civilizations that are farther apart don't receive as much income from each other so they seek to cut out the middle man and make a road directly to each other.

Of course this would be all very messy, because you would have to have an entire system of consumers and producers and demand for foreign products say even if you had them already but who's to say that the dye in one part of the world is the same as the next, and if the civilization is completely without a resource then it will be high demand. So you could have things like the sugar and silver trade from the new world, where those weren't too common in other areas and as a result, were in demand. This would also lead to things building cities like Manila to govern the trade and be a hub for Spanish goods.

Either way, such a thing would result in a tangible trade line that one could take advantage of with even naval routes having a part

Well, that was completely unrelated and long... And now for something completely different

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

First of all, it is terribly silly and myopic to look at another culture, and say, "Ah, they have no religion." Just because Confucianism isn't a western religion doesn't mean it isn't a religion. The Chinese most certainly took those teachings seriously, and, in some ways, treated the emperor as divine(often called "Son of Heaven" and the his Mandate to rule was from Heaven[Mandate of Heaven]). Just because they didn't have some ridiculous pantheon and mythos about the sexual escapades of deities(which, really, is what Greco-Roman belief boils down to) doesn't mean they didn't have a religion.

In any case, I have a problem with wonders that, IRL, weren't "built." IMO, it is completely ridiculous to build...say...Leonardo's Workshop, because Leonardo built it and no one thought it very wondrous at the time...and, indeed, its impact on anyone but Leo(as a physical object) was minimal. The tech tree already does a good job of representing the rush of development at the beginning of the Renaissance(Banking comes very close by, if you notice....and then there're markets and grocers even before.) Leonardo's Workshop didn't cause the Renaissance, it was caused by it. Building the Silk Road is just silly...it was a number of independent trade routes that changed hands constantly. It cannot be contained in a single city. To simulate it, they would need to completely revamp the trading system.

As for Zheng He...they could introduce a mechanic where if you're the first Civ to encounter another Civ, you get some sort of bonus to trading with them. But....again....the current trade system is a clunker in this regard(and the tech tree too....colonizing[Astronomy] seems to come a little late). That's for a mod...or CiV to solve...

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Following that line of reasoning, wouldn't nationalism be a form of "religion" then?

As far as "deity worship," "ancestor veneration," and "ritual" goes, those things were practiced in China long before Confucius and Confucianism was around. It's not that all of a sudden some guy called Master Kong shows up and says that we gotta do this; rather, it's simply a continuation of tradition for the sake of tradition. Confucianism at its core is agnostic. All the "rituals" and "worship" we see today come from traditional Chinese folk practices, local religions, or were influenced by other things such as Daoism and Buddhism.

And FOR THE LAST TIME: I didn't, I repeat DID NOT, say that the Chinese didn't have something that we can recognize as "religion." I simply said that their concepts were different and that they didn't have a word for "religion." Once again the phrase "religion in the traditional sense." Please READ the bloody post before going all judgmental.

Anyways, it's clear that we're not going to agree on this matter so it's better to drop the debate and stop beating on a dead horse.

One thing that Civilization IV could have used was a system of "great feats" (something akin to Call to Power 2) that bring about bonuses for a certain span of time. It would work somewhat like a "golden age" but to a much lesser extent. For example, having a certain number of trade routes or market buildings would give a bonus to all trade routes for a set number of turns.

 

[Dida]

Following that line of reasoning, wouldn't nationalism be a form of "religion" then?

How would nationalism be a religion following that line of reasoning? Asking a rhetorical question does NOT make you statement true. Does nationalism believe their tribe is destined to rule by 'mandate of heaven'? Does nationalism have temples, where offerings were made to gods/supernatural beings (like Temple of Heaven, and other numerous Confucian temples such as Temple of Earth, Tai Miao, etc)? Does nationalism believe that if the emperor is not ruling his country in accordance with a particular code of conduct, the Heavens will express its displeasure by sending down droughts/floods or have the ruler replaced?

As far as "deity worship," "ancestor veneration," and "ritual" goes, those things were practiced in China long before Confucius and Confucianism was around. It's not that all of a sudden some guy called Master Kong shows up and says that we gotta do this; rather, it's simply a continuation of tradition for the sake of tradition. Confucianism at its core is agnostic. All the "rituals" and "worship" we see today come from traditional Chinese folk practices, local religions, or were influenced by other things such as Daoism and Buddhism.

Your understanding of religions in general and Confucianism in particular is grossly inadequate. Worshiping of God were practiced long before Christianity or some guy name Jesus showed up. By your logic, Christianity would not be a religion. The fact is, religions borrow off and contribute to one another. No religion can possibly come out of nowhere, they all need something else with which to build upon. It would be strange indeed if Confucianism emerged in the Middle East, with no connection whatsoever to the prevailing local belief system.

In particular, Confucius did not invent Confucianism, as you seemed to have claimed. Like many people who has no understanding of Confucianism, you take the belief that just because the ideology is named after Confucius, it must have been his brain child. In fact, Confucius prided himself in "propagating without creating", meaning that he merely organized and passed down what was already there. None of the 6 Confucian classics (one of which the Book of Musics had been lost, supposedly due to prosecution from Shi Huang Di) were written by Confucius, although he played central role in organizing and teaching them to his students.

Confucius himself looked to greater thinker prior to his own time such as Duke of Zhou and King Wen for inspiration. His goal throughout life was not to create a new school of thought, but rather to revitalize and teach "the ways of the Kings of old". It was no surprise that Ancestral worship and many other Confucian rituals/thoughts existed before Confucius because that was exactly what he sought to revitalize.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Once again, you're not even reading my posts.

1) I did not say that Confucius "invented" Confucianism.
2) My comment on ritual and ancestor veneration was in response to your failure to clarify earlier that these things were from earlier Chinese tradition; you gave the impression that Confucianism created these things.
3) Apparently the phrase "religion in the traditional sense" is invisible to your eyes. When I said Confucianism is not a religion, I said it is not a "religion in the traditional sense," the traditional sense meaning a belief and required faith in the theos. Obviously, we're both speaking completely different languages here.
4) American nationalism did have something akin to a "mandate of heaven" - a "Manifest Denisty" concept in which Americans believed that they had a right and were destined to conquer the rest of their continent. A form of "Manifest Destiny" still is a part of the beliefs of American ultra-nationalists. Arguably, national monuments function like temples. Holidays and tributes are "offerings" to notables.

It's obvious that we're not going to agree with each other and as much as I enjoy having this debate with you, instead of spamming this thread, how about getting back on topic and dropping this discussion for now?

 

[Saim]

Um... please enlighten me as to how 'More Asian Wonders' have to do with whether Confusionism is a religion or not?

Anyway.... yeah there are too many American wonders. But technically 'the internet' is not an American wonder, because 'the internet' in the game is meant to represent the World Wide Web (cause that's what everyone calls the WWW, the internet, even though the internet is something else) and the WWW wasn't made in America.

As American wonders, I would have chosen Hollywood, Rock 'n Roll and the Statue of Liberty. Broadway? Seriously: what?

 

[Angst]

Terra Cotta Army says it all.

 

[Spitefire]

I have a suggestion for the aquasition of wonders, instead of building them a player should have to fulfill ceartain requirements before the wonder is bestowded amonp them and of course diffrant wonders require diffrant conditions.

Now unless im mistaken the Pyrimids are older then 6000 years witch that alone would disqualify it as a BUILDABLE wonder however if wonders required conditions to be granted then as a possability the condition of this particular wonder could have something to do with exploration and excavations, or something else if for some reason unsuitable.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Some wonders had specific requirements in Civ3, like requiring a specific number of buildings in your empire, being under a certain government, or having certain resources within city radius.

 

[porto_alegre_xP]

it need to have american wonders! not american from usa - from argentina, canada, mexico, brazil )), uruguay, peru )), cuba, etc
american wonders just chichen itza and the wonders from usa!

PS: how the pentagon is a wonder?? i know that he is the largest office building in the world, but a lot of things are big and aren't wonders... empire state building and Itaipu needs to bee wonders

 

[Edgecrusher]

PS: how the pentagon is a wonder?? i know that he is the largest office building in the world, but a lot of things are big and aren't wonders... empire state building and Itaipu needs to bee wonders

I think more went into deciding what the wonders were. The effect is equally as important. For example, if they wanted a wonder to give extra experience, what building in the history of mankind would provide that? Granted alot of the wonder's effects are a stretch, but for the most part they are related to their effect.

The only other building I would think that could increase experience would be the Colosseum of Rome, and there is already a Colosseum Improvement (Granted they have the Lighthouse/Great Lighthouse, Library/Great Library, Temples/Countless Temple-equse wonders), Who knows...

When it was build, the Pentagon was a pretty impressive building. Perfectly Geometric, largest office building, etc... so I can understand why it is a valid wonder. I mean there arent any other buildings like it.

 

[TheDervish]

Persepolis, please

 

[Rusty Edge]

Edit: Also, I second the Trans-Siberian Railroad. "All your units have +2 movement on railroads"...

Don't forget the Great Engineer points

 

[haruntaiwan]

Hmmmm, a thread about Asian wonders and it mainly ends up discussing Chinese wonders. How about Borobudur, Prambanan, or some Japanese temples? Code of Bushido instead of West Point?

I think Broadway could be replaced by Sydney's Opera House though the dating would be off a bit. Maybe they should have Thomas Cooke's Travel Agency, and the happy point are from Tourism.

Statue of Liberty - if you were in NYC on holiday, would you visit it or not? If yes, then it is a wonder.

West Point: I guess non-Americans would prefer Frunze, Sandhurst? That's okay by me. Or use The Prussian Military Academy as they were pretty good at making soldiers too.

Pentagon: I really don't have a problem with this one - as it is readily identified by everyone in the world and is associated with awesome weaponry. Perhaps it could have been called "Military Industrial Complex" to avoid the national connations.

 

[LuckyAC]

oh you forgot to count the rocknroll hollywood and the internet (with al gore on it)

Don't forget the Apollo Program, the United Nations and the Manhattan Project.