More detailed land

[Naokaukodem]

Here is an idea that popped in my head when "asking for more rivers" in the General Discussion forum.

Then I suggested the possibility to have more than only one river in a square. Not that this idea have to be kept. (may make too many rivers and their advantages no strategic anymore as they would be everywhere)

But the whole more detailled land thing seems to be interesting to me.

For example: several types of forest: thickets, woods, great forest (full square)

Same for plain/grassland: in one scare there could be 100% grass 0% plain, 75% grass 25% plain, 50% grass 50% plain, etc...

Of course a combination of all this could occur: for example, one tile with 75% grass, 25% plain, with woods and scattered hills.

This would allow:

* A more detailled land and more realistic maps.

* A whole variety of square types thus a variety of improvements and a fully customizable land.
EDIT: in fact, I've just minded that it would allow MORE STRATEGY. Indeed, strategy is what? It is the capacity to adapt to different situations. You take decisions according to the surrounding. That needs several possible decisions. Here, the more the land would be different, the more it would be workable, the more decisions you would have to take.

WDYT?

 

[Gilder]

It appears needlessly complicated.

 

[alms66]

In a similar vein, I wish they'd move to a 10x system so that plains don't produce 1 food and 1 hammer, but 10 food and 10 hammer. Then you could have a little difference in these amounts on the tiles so a plain might range anywhere from 8-12 food and 8-12 hammer or something like that. In this way, a plain is a plain, but not all plains are the same.

 

[Englor]

What I think is best here is land types under class:
grasslands
median
floodplains
plains
prairy
steppes
forrest
pine forrest
evergreen forrest
jungle
rainforrest
swamp
thicket
hills(grassland)
rolling hills(plains)
rockydunes
sand dunes
desert
oasis
badlands
mountains
desert mountains
polar mountains
polar hills
polar plains
glacier
tundra
ice
wastes

The difference is not only in the basics of travel, production type plus and defense, yet also in the rootes of benefit.
saying that perhaps in evergreen forest choosing to harvest "lumber" is more beneficial as opposed to harvesting from forrest, from which "hardwood" harvest is better fitted. Again I've been told that my ideas are extensive implementation, ecxept for the fact that this kind of accuracy could really help the game go a much longer way at a near insignificant cost to both time, and balance during game play. It's all down to simple clicks and managing thier results.

 

[Prestidigitator]

I think that this is merely just a graphic addition. You can try and post that in the 'Creation and Customization' forum.
Some, like the marshes have been done in some mods, others like Desert mountains seem like a basic reskin .

 

[Englor]

The extent of my idea is right here;

Geographical termsl;
grassland- best for foodstock
median- best for spices and vegetables
floodplains- best for some grains and herbs
plains- best for some grains and workstock
steppes- best for some food stock and work stock
prairy- best for work stock and production
forrest- best for hardwood production, and protection
pine forrest- best for softwood production and withdrawral
deciduous forrest- best for hardwood production and protection
evergreen forrest- best for lumber production, withdrwral and protection
rain forrest- best for game experience some fruits, and lumber production
jungle- Best for some resource production and game experience
thicket- Best for spices herbs and vegetables
hills- Best for some resource production and defense
grassy hills- Best for some resource production and defense
rolling hills- Best for some resource production and defense
rocky dunesBest for some resource production and defense
sand dunes- Best for some resource production
polar hills-best for defense(util pressure mining)
mountains- Best for production and defense
desert mountain- Best for resource production and defense
polar mountains- Best for defense(until pressure mining and synthetics)
Platue-Best for defense
guido-Best for defense
canyon- Best for defense
basin Best to avoid
polar plains- Best to avoid(until core mining)
ice cap-Best to avoid(until photo synthesis)
tundra- Best to avoid(until not applicable)
glacier- Best for defnse)
coast- Best for some resources and growth)
beach- Best for some resources and contentment)
mouth- Best for trafficing and defense
delta- Best for trafficing and defense
marsh- Best for change
swamp- See swamp
harbour- Best for trafficing and defense
bay- Best for trafficing and taxing
panisula- Best for expansion and growth
gulf- Best for growth and defense
sea- Best for resource production and growth
ocean- Best for resource production and growth
ridge- Best for defensive submarine navigation
rise- see ridge
oceanic volcanoe- Best for resource production
oceanic canyon- see ridge

 

[Englor]

I think that this is merely just a graphic addition. You can try and post that in the 'Creation and Customization' forum.
Some, like the marshes have been done in some mods, others like Desert mountains seem like a basic reskin .

My dear fellow I'm not simply talking mods here, that to me seems unnecessary. The game itself should be as full-well rounded as possible with qyuic and easily-navagable start up methods to tailor any persons choice of play. How does it seem illogical to give the game all that it has sen already since its' start. I honestly think that with civ four, we have reached the conclusion of divisible bickering. We should bring that past ideas, that for any sake have not been, "proven", and prove them in the culmination of what this game could really do. I don't see it as, "too big", though I do recognize it will take some work.

 

[Mewtarthio]

I agree! More bickering! Nothing gets accomplished if we all agree!

With that in mind, could you clarify your idea somewhat? As far as I can tell, you're just suggesting that different terrain types produce different flavorful "mini-resources." Would this, then, have an impact on the gold generated by trade routes?

 

[Englor]

I agree! More bickering! Nothing gets accomplished if we all agree!

With that in mind, could you clarify your idea somewhat? As far as I can tell, you're just suggesting that different terrain types produce different flavorful "mini-resources." Would this, then, have an impact on the gold generated by trade routes?

Well first off, you misinterpreted my post, ahem, I am pro getting past smalltime bickerring and getting things done. The bickering has been all but spent, and that was my point. Now is a time for subtlety and agreement. Where as you seem to be the loud mouth "fight-it-all" type.

Obviously robust resources wealth aids in trade or "gold" revenue. The idea is that, if you really read through thoroughly, that things like tile improving/transforming holds various cost and aid affects in small yet considerable enough weights and measures.
They are diversified in what is best reaped from them, and how they stand in the scale of convenience for tavel, protection and other values.

Especially in times of expansion and for the sake of scenario creation, I'd not bother to communicate my ideas of diversity in land types if I thought it'd just be for the map to look pretty get my drift.
Now, please, if you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer, and help refined with hearing your own ideas.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Well actually Englor I don't catch your idea so well... what is the difference with your idea and the one to simply add more land types?

Mine is not only to add more land type, but to be able to design/auto generate a map with a way more detailled scale. The forests would have a better definition (for example, a thicket could be placed of the border of a square near a forest one), the rivers would be more numerous, (see another topic) and finally, the shape of the land would be way more realistic and enjoyable, and the square system and the unit moves kept the same in the same time.

Another thing is an improved strategy: those various configurations of tiles would allow the player to do subtile changes instead of major ones, especially those involving forests and hills.

Finally, my system allows way more configurations that your, for example there could be scattered rock hills, scattered green hills, grassland scattered forest, hill forests and so on in the same square.

 

[Englor]

Well actually Englor I don't catch your idea so well... what is the difference with your idea and the one to simply add more land types?

Mine is not only to add more land type, but to be able to design/auto generate a map with a way more detailled scale. The forests would have a better definition (for example, a thicket could be placed of the border of a square near a forest one), the rivers would be more numerous, (see another topic) and finally, the shape of the land would be way more realistic and enjoyable, and the square system and the unit moves kept the same in the same time.

Another thing is an improved strategy: those various configurations of tiles would allow the player to do subtile changes instead of major ones, especially those involving forests and hills.

Finally, my system allows way more configurations that your, for example there could be scattered rock hills, scattered green hills, grassland scattered forest, hill forests and so on in the same square.

Ok, I can appreciate your aim here, except I forsee this, as stated before, an unecessary complexity to land geography as opposed to more actual land features(ei thickets most common next to forrests, and mountains usually bordered by hills, which I am in favour for.
The conplex tile Idea however, nearly depletes the value of the map size because it basterdizes the intial instinct to expand if you have so much in one tile, and a tile in my recolection represents an area that holds the land type and is further spanced when along adjacen land types of the same class or exact type, whereas diversity is the apparent cut off between different types or classes of land.
The economic reaping and its' own advancement may prove to be to barricaded by allowing one tile to have so much property, and what I've learned over time from trying to fit civ to my preferences, may definately require much, much more memory and work to both develope and run the game.
I'm sorry and shocked to say, this may be better suited for mods that could handle this kind of enquantifying adversity.

 

[Englor]

My idea is the audious of my further ideas I have yet to state as I am prepping them before I actually do so. I can assure you, you will recieve the entirety of my idea however. There is plenty of material that I've covered wile keeping the explanation as dircet and consice as the implementation I've refined. I appologize for the delay.

 

[Englor]

This material has been transported. Revert to the civics debate topic for view.

 

[Mewtarthio]

Wow, that's certainly comprehensive. Could you go into some more detail about that last part, say, what the advantages and disadvantages of freedom regarding research are? Also, there are a few balancing issues with your governments, but I'm a bit too busy to break it apart right now. Perhaps later.

 

[Englor]

Wow, that's certainly comprehensive. Could you go into some more detail about that last part, say, what the advantages and disadvantages of freedom regarding research are?QUOTE]

I've left this open for further research and debate. All info/suggestions welcome. There will be significant result pertaining to government type(includes ruling body) and constitutional settings, preference both part 1 and 2 necessary for the game to be balanced and fuction accordingly to realism and popular preference.

Also, there are a few balancing issues with your governments, but I'm a bit too busy to break it apart right now. Perhaps later.[/

Then let us tear it apart together, and reconstruct and readdress the issues baringly.

 

[Naokaukodem]

For the sake of further clarifying my idea,


Republic and feudalism- regional governments = capitol cities, and national capitol.

Feudalism = increased gold from trade in hamlets, villiages, towns, and colonies.

Republic = increased production and legal strength from hamlets, villiages, towns and colonies.

Monarchy = one military unit guarding the city makes one happy citizen.2 guards makes 1 content citizen.
Unit support costs and science are both halved.

Theocracy = every pop point in the dominating religion produces an extra 5 gold with massive religios influential increase, missionaries are 85% successful in their attetmpts to convert other cities, all buildings produce and increased 150% gold. Crusaders are produced at 3/4 the cost with an added promotion and exp. Science is nearly eliminated unless education is plush, production also takes a heavy hit.

Tyranny = Units cost only 3/4 the cost to build and maintain. Legal strength may be achieved as contentment is in monarchy by moving units into a city.

Despotism = Units gain experience points(and promotion with legal civics)

Fascism = 50% of discontentment due to unit support and war weariness is eliminated. 25% of all other discontentment is eliminated. Unit support costs are reduced 2/3. Unit production cost is reduced 25%.
Gorwth is halved. Science is reduced 1/3. The affect of litteracy is reduced 1/3. Special unit may be created; fascist

Fundamentalism = Increased production and commerce from trade and resource revenue, increased religious influence and special unit may be created; Fundamentalist.

Democracy = Increased legal strength and contentment from all martial law improvements. Increased contenment from all contentment improvements. Increased litteracy and education from all education improvements.

Communism = increased production from all production improvements. Martial law may be executed by moving units into a city. Science and commerce take insurmountable hits.

Fanaticalism = religious influence, defensive and offensive affects from battle and improvements skyrocket, acts of terrorism are viewed by others more generally, commrce and science appear irrelevent. Special unit may be created; fanatic

Franticalism = likewise offensive and defensive properties increase dramatically, yet religion is practically repressed and hense replaced by matrial law and propoganda. Franticalist societies, aim sharply to thier growth and scince with an eye and a fear that knows no sleep, for this production efforts often crash, yet are quickly recovered by extreme acts of focus. During turns of production in anything in any city, it should be expected that some turns go on un changed in the productive progression. yet the benefit of extreme military and homeland security emphasis may propel one to stay ignorable of mere glitches in basic manifestations, unless of course the intended manufature is more valuable than the basic. Special unit may be created; franticalist

Federationalism = This government is like a modern fuedalism. Increased production and gold from trade revenue, increased gold from hamlets, villiages, towns and colonies. Legal strength is something that absolutely must be implemented by improvements as corruption with this government can be overwhelming.
culture and contentment usually flood the common hatreds of the society, while education is generally basterdized to a unilateral focus, and hense improvements keep things running smothly here. Military support when focused during war is less costly than when at pease. So, cost only reduces when it is convenient for it to do so. A nice plus, with lots of disbanding in order(arguably speaking).

Franticalist holds a special attack that ensures the unit it's attacking dies.

Fanatic holds a special attack that leaves it unscaved with a heavy defensive and withdrwal that can keep attacking the enemy unit turn and turn again until it is dead. Being attacked and dieing means that the enemy had one hell of an anti up attack(er) if you know what I mean.

Fundamentalist holds a special value that allows it to draw from the enemies life if wounded while in battle.

Fascist is an extremely strong and mobile unit, as all of these four special units are in their own ways.

Converting city population into militia:
Once a city has two or more citizens, all citizens except for the first, less to not disband the city unless opted, may be transformed into simple military units within the turn. The transformation counts as movement so a the turn from which the transition took place must be cycled until movement can proceed.
Returning to the state of citizenship requires a two turn wait along return to a city. Workers appear when not returned to a city. Some governments and constitutional settings allow for reduced transition time, cost and city malficiency from this enaction. The number of militiamen is option. A city with guards being transformed into militia are employed as higher grade military units.

legal strength = government influence and individual right.
contenetment problems- capitol distance, taxation, hunger, crime, demand, nation size, war weariness, unit support, government type, overcrowding, waste, pollution.

Legal strength fights unhappiness associated with government type majorily, and capitol distance minorly.


Ruling body Factor:
totalitarian-Undisputed
council leader- Tyrannical
constitutional leader- Divine right
conssesional body- Aristocracy
constitutional body- Oligarchy
constituional congression- Socialistic
congressional leader- Republic
congressional body- Democracy
consessional leader- Federationistic

Ruling body factors are the extension of the governments apllications and functions like having a senate that can intervene, or a council that can very accurately advise the guidence and decisions of the player.
The difference in ruling bodie is the subtleties in wheather or not, the citizens will be whole or divided, loyal or rebellious and exactly what the measures of acceptance and agreement are.
The oal here is to open the range of possibility to the player so tat options are anything except inexistant. This does not mean fail-proof, it means abuse(unfair)-resistant. This helps to really make game difficulty mean the definition of wheather or not the player can actually challenge or be challenged.

Factors:
Ruling body
Food production Tech Production
Hammer production Martial production
Commerce Production Legal production


Constitution-1

Labor:
Tribalism
Settlement = Effort produces, increased ambient development.

Serfdom = Production and maintenece costs are reduced.

Unionism = Added experience for new citizens. Increased experience for veteran workers. IE faster production.

Organized Employment = affects of division reduced 90%, Production cost is in adherence with demand and legality, reducing crime, discontentment from crime, demand, legality and freedom.

Economic:
Decentralization
Liablism = 2/3 of commerce recovered from criminal loss, decreased maintenece costs.

Merchantilsim = All commercail improvements quadrouple in commercial revenue.

Free enterprise = All commerce from dominant and ambient commerce and trade are doubled. Maintenece costs are reduced to the demand of the improvement.

State Property = Maintenece costs, and discontentment for wages and taxation are eliminated.

Legal:
Barberism
Vassalage = units, military and other recieve increased experience, and increased affect from experience.

Autotourney = Citizens produce increased legal strength, government influence and contentment.

NationHood = affects from both martial law and enforcement are increased. Capitol distance discontentment slighlty increases. Negative affects from constitution settings lessoned.

Legislation = Law enforcement improvement costs are reduced and legal strength is increased.
Corruption is reduced. Negative affects from constituion setings are broadened.

Religion:
Paganism

Organized religion = organized practice and distribution

Sanctionism = reliogion runs along the line of being a maritaility aid

Pascifism = religion is tolerated and utilized without the restraints of direct measure(hense lesser gain)

Free religion = Religion is controversial and widespread, yet this advantage holds still the lessening of the impact due to conversions and demand while keeping the gains at the med.


CitizenshipFrom one to all may be enacted)
Enforcement- Crime, war weariness and unit support discontentment are Reduced. Constituion disconetentment is increased!

Arms Baring- Citizens, workers, explorers and travellers(migrating citizens) hold a direct defensive Bonus, contentment is increased. Crime and the event of disorder/revolution are now more dangerous to containment if reached!

Free Speech- City efficiency and educational improvements hold triple the effect. Discontentment is amplified and negative political occurances are all the more dangerous!

Free Press- Litteracy is tripled, legal strength is decreased and once again, hillfalls become an avalnche!

Liberty- Discontentment due to demand, capitol distance, civics, legality and freedom are virtualy inexistant. Crime and disorder are on the other hand potentially around every corner!


AlienshipFrom one to all may be enacted)
Slavery- enslavement is allowed and eliminates "chance uprisings".

Emancipation- Slavery is nearly abolished within the nation if slavery is also set. Totally, if not set.

Humanitarianism- Increased contentment and health.

Equality- cost of the legal system, contnement and growth is increased.

Liberalism- Mass discontentment for global oppression and tyranny. Mass contentment when rooted out, fought and defeated.

Enfrocement and Crimeonly one may be enacted)
Sanctity- Guards produce 3 times the affect.
Condonance- population can be surrendered to eliminate crime for some time.
Convention- court houses and dungeons at 25% less cost and twice the affect.
Fair Trial- The effects of crime holds 1/3 the affect as intended.
Capitol Punishment- Crime is reduced 85%, discontentment takes a 45% skyrocket.

DelegationOnly one amy be enacted)
Aristocracy- riches(luxury) in the city, keeps contentment and legal strength in order

LordShip- War capability is admired and fore-strived. City Guards match elite inf. strength, when city population is converted(temporary) into malitia, cost is reduced, total city efficiency takes less of a hit, and the militia(citizen soldiers fight with the strength of a veteran infantry of the latest military advance). Enacted Arms Baring realy helps here.

Represntation- Decreased discontentment from capitol distance, all martial law improvements produce twice the affect.

Bureaucracy- In bureaucratic delegation, all capitol cities/national capitol produces extra income and legal strength. Corruption is eliminated.

Petition- Petition delegation produces increased contentment and litteracy in all cities. Corruption also takes an increase, and requires checking.

Constitution-2
National Management-

Estates:
Free----Taxed----Controlled----Restricted----Enforced

Trade:
Free----Taxed----Controlled----Restricted----Enforced

Commerce:
Free----Taxed----Controlled----Restricted----Enforced

Labor:
Open----Mandated----Controlled----Restricted----Enforced

Education:
Open----Mandated----Controlled----Restricted----Enforced

Advance Research
Open----Mandated----Controlled----Restricted----Enforced


Estates = An increaser for growth and development, the negative defects of estates are the slowing of production and the affect of overcrowding. Taxing estates brings in revenue and checks the effects of working development alongside production, and slowing the process of overcrowding.
Free and open exploit are one in the same between the sectors as taxation and mandate are.

Taxation is an added income aside from general revenue gained from whatever economic constituion is implied with the nation. Also depending on government type and virtually every other governing aspect as all things are conected some how.

Control means allowing governmental intervetion in the interst of the cities survival and growth.

Restriction is the barrier that prohibits individual choice and must be appointed by the government, keeping plans precise and citizen bitterness(discontentment) very real.

Enforcement puts the city government in direct control of the entirety of city business. Complete control and balls as the people may definately say.(decreased contentment)

Trade = The process of doing ambient commercial and personal business with with the rest of the world, and if under feudalism or republic, that also includes litteraly any other city aside from said city.

Commerce = The circulation and process of dominant commerce and trade within the city/nation depending on government.

Labor = The permission of all things that may be harvested, manufactured and serviced. Also governing on how further work is implied and for what base compensation.

Education = The direction and efficiency of learning as any from open venture to coerced focus, managing what the educational audious contributes to the city and hense nation may hold very serious and important results that could determine the game outcome heavily. As education may be spent for rapid results towards a variety of improvement and/ or expansion.

Advance research = Science that matters so much in how ahead or less behind a nation stays in range of the rest of the world.

All City management schemes may be completely overrided and ignored if done properly. Each government has it's own favorate/best affect choice in each section of the entire constituion at plain value aside from wonders, improvements and other secondary achievements as footholds. When changing governents, the preference of government type with rulling body set it's best results with the total state of the nation, to adjust it's settings. Maintenece should really not be to demanding, and the learning curve can prove to be quite quick and yet the whole scheme is some much more satisfying and aiding in the actual game. The main thing to watch for is the contentment/discontetnment ratios of the cities.

Evidently there is still some strucural integrityand refinement work needed. Though this is mostly what my idea encompasses for the government factor.

What does this have to do with this topic?

 

[Englor]

What does this have to do with this topic?

You've requested clarification, pertaining to my idea. I Accepted.
In fact I'm going to trasport this into Aussie's civics debate on this forum(ideas/suggestions), so any desiring to view and/or reply to this go there.