More evidence published that Neanderthals were little different from "modern humans"

And remains of a 210000 Homo Sapiens may have been found inside a cave in Greece. This one got moving out of Africa rather early...

Two fossilized human crania (Apidima 1 and Apidima 2) from Apidima Cave, southern Greece, were discovered in the late 1970s but have remained enigmatic owing to their incomplete nature, taphonomic distortion and lack of archaeological context and chronology. Here we virtually reconstruct both crania, provide detailed comparative descriptions and analyses, and date them using U-series radiometric methods. Apidima 2 dates to more than 170 thousand years ago and has a Neanderthal-like morphological pattern. By contrast, Apidima 1 dates to more than 210 thousand years ago and presents a mixture of modern human and primitive features. These results suggest that two late Middle Pleistocene human groups were present at this site—an early Homo sapiens population, followed by a Neanderthal population. Our findings support multiple dispersals of early modern humans out of Africa, and highlight the complex demographic processes that characterized Pleistocene human evolution and modern human presence in southeast Europe.

Some day the view that our species has a longer, richer history with diverse variants mixing together will take over. But scientific consensus being what it is, the generation of academics who built their careers on the previous theory will have to be naturally extinguished before that happens.
 
Yes, apparently the Africa theory is not sustainable by evidence. Ideally politics should not get in the way of its dismissal when it becomes possible, but as you said individual careers also will present resistance to change. I do hope, though, that if/when it becomes tenable to overule that theory, there won't be false notes of politics and it will be treated scientifically.
 
Yes, apparently the Africa theory is not sustainable by evidence.

Which "Africa theory" is that?

Clearly our lineage originated in Africa, clearly our ancestors migrated out of there into the far corners of the world. The open questions are in the details; as in, how many waves of early-human and pre-human migration were there (and what about back-migration into Africa?), which species got to where at what times, which variants (like Neandertals and Denisovans) existed where and to what extent do traces of their DNA survive in modern humans, and so on.
 
Which "Africa theory" is that?

Clearly our lineage originated in Africa, clearly our ancestors migrated out of there into the far corners of the world. The open questions are in the details; as in, how many waves of early-human and pre-human migration were there (and what about back-migration into Africa?), which species got to where at what times, which variants (like Neandertals and Denisovans) existed where and to what extent do traces of their DNA survive in modern humans, and so on.

This discussion took place so long ago that maybe Neanderthals still walked among us at the time :P
 
This being kind of a pet interest to me, I found some new speculative news about neanderthal tool-making worth posting.

Until recently, the oldest direct evidence of string technology came from a site called Ohalo II in Israel and the famed Lascaux Cave in France. The bits of preserved string found at these sites date to 19,000 and 17,000 years ago, respectively, and were made by early members of our own species. But there were hints that fiber technology might have deeper roots in Homo sapiens culture. Impressions of woven fabric have been found on fired clay from sites in Moravia dating back as far as 28,000 years ago. And ivory artifacts from sites in Germany that may have been used for spinning plant fibers are up to 40,000 years old.
[...]
In 2013 archaeologist Bruce Hardy of Kenyon College and his colleagues reported that they had found plant fibers that looked as though they had been twisted to form string in excavations at the Abri du Maras rock shelter in southeastern France, which once harbored Neandertals. But with only individual fibers to go on, as opposed to actual string showing them twisted together, the case was far from airtight.

In the new study, published today in Scientific Reports, Hardy and his co-authors describe a 6.2-millimeter-long fragment of string that their team found at the same rock shelter —in a layer dated to between 52,000 and 41,000 years ago, when Neandertals occupied the site. Analyses of the fragment show that it is made of fibers that were probably harvested from the inner bark of a conifer tree. The fibers were twisted clockwise to form yarn, and then three lengths of the yarn were twisted in the opposite direction to make string.

I'm not sure they identified a real piece of string, but it looks like one. It also shows how perishable early material culture of humans was, and that so much must be irretrievably lost. Leading us to underestimate the depth of out development history.
 
This being kind of a pet interest to me, I found some new speculative news about neanderthal tool-making worth posting.



I'm not sure they identified a real piece of string, but it looks like one. It also shows how perishable early material culture of humans was, and that so much must be irretrievably lost. Leading us to underestimate the depth of out development history.

Would be interesting if our archeologists could find out whether Neandertaler had discovered the Tech of rope-twisting

The essence of a rope made of several smaller ropes or strings is that when at one point a string is damaged or cut, by the sticking resistance between the strings, several of such discontinuities (damage or end of string) can happen in a rope without affecting the strenght of the rope as a whole too much.

Example:
I have a rope made of two strings and string A is damaged at 30 cm and string B is damaged at 70 cm.
If those two strings would just be paralel the "rope" is broken... bit in a twisted rope of say 100 cm, the rope will still have a strenght of 1 string.

See this vid

Because this allows for using short strings to make much longer rope, materials like wool and grass are suddenly useful

Here traditional grass rope making

And yes
With strong reliable ropes you can build lots of stuff from housing to boats and more in the realm of neandertalers
A circular coracle also possible
https://www.theguardian.com/culture...an-tablet-noah-ark-constructed-british-museum


https://www.contextualdictionary.co...-Ark-Before-Noah-A-Great-Adventure-vd-1234542
 
Pet interest remains pet interest :D

"Modern humans were present in Europe at least 46,000 years ago, according to new research on objects found in Bulgaria, meaning they overlapped with Neanderthals for far longer than previously thought."

Researchers say remains and tools found at a cave called Bacho Kiro reveal that modern humans and Neanderthals were present at the same time in Europe for several thousand years, giving them ample time for biological and cultural interaction.
“Our work in Bacho Kiro shows there is a time overlap of maybe 8,000 years between the arrival of the first wave of modern humans in eastern Europe and the final extinction of Neanderthals in the far west of Europe,” said Prof Jean-Jacques Hublin, from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, a co-author of the research, adding that that was far longer than previously thought. Some scholars have suggested a period of not more than 3,000 years.
Neanderthals were roaming Europe until about 40,000 years ago. “It gives a lot of time for these groups to interact biologically and also culturally and behaviourally,” Hublin added.
[...]
Among further discoveries, the researchers found jewellery fashioned from cave bear teeth that they say is strikingly similar to that produced by the very last Neanderthals. They say this adds weight to the idea the latter may have adopted innovations as a result of contact with early modern humans.
“Some people would say that is a coincidence; I don’t believe it,” said Hublin, noting there was already genetic evidence that the groups interbred. “I don’t see how you can have biological interaction between groups without any sign of behavioural influence of one on the other.”
 
Paintings dated 64000 found in Spain shown that cave painting did not start with the so-called "modern humans", but existed already before their assumed migration into Europe.

Discovery of cave paintings and decorated shells reveals Neanderthals were artists



To be clear, assumed is my own criticism of a theory of human evolution that should have been shelved due to new evidence years ago. I do not believe that a total replacement of the population of Europe some 40000 years ago happened, or that any credible evidence of such replacement has ever been produced to justify the hold such a theory has had during the last decades. Theories on pre-history always rested on exceedingly thin evidence of few archaeological remains. Fortunately we keep adding to that record, things should improve!

Human evolution and the birth of human "culture" seems to me more likely to have been a continuum from a far more distant time, with populations moving and mixing in all directions for nearly a million years.

It appears your initial prediction more than 2 years ago was correct. With the Y chromosome now sequenced, the results were very surprising to the researchers and changes everything that we thought about the Neanderthals.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200924141449.htm

My personal prediction is that further research in years to come will conclude that the Neanderthals essentially were modern humans.
 
Didn't the N-thals have a bigger brain?
It could mean that - given time - they would have been on average far more intelligent a sub-species.

Homo Sapiens brain cells are very special

"A team of researchers has managed to introduce a number of human brain cells into mouse brains, making them partly human. The new mice have grown to be more intelligent than their ordinary mice counterparts and have demonstrated improved performance in cognitive ability tests".

https://www.intelligentliving.co/mi...rs has,performance in cognitive ability tests.
 
Homo Sapiens brain cells are very special

"A team of researchers has managed to introduce a number of human brain cells into mouse brains, making them partly human. The new mice have grown to be more intelligent than their ordinary mice counterparts and have demonstrated improved performance in cognitive ability tests".

https://www.intelligentliving.co/mice-human-brain-cells/#:~:text=A team of researchers has,performance in cognitive ability tests.

I guess they didn't try to inject the mice with Neanderthal brain-cells :)
 
I read the related article on the BBC. It's a shame that none of our cousins survived to inherit the world with us.
My theory is that Neanderthals lacked the abstract thinking capacity to comprehend the concept of "war", leading to their slow extermination :(
 
More genetic evidence that there was no "out of Africa" great replacement migration, Neanderthals simply merged over time with hopo sapiens.

"We now know that for the vast majority of human history, we've had a history of contact between modern humans and Neanderthals," said Akey. The hominins who are our most direct ancestors split from the Neanderthal family tree about 600,000 years ago, then evolved our modern physical characteristics about 250,000 years ago.
"From then until the Neanderthals disappeared -- that is, for about 200,000 years -- modern humans have been interacting with Neanderthal populations," he said.
[...]
Li and Akey's key insight was to look for modern-human DNA in the genomes of the Neanderthals, instead of the other way around. "The vast majority of genetic work over the last decade has really focused on how mating with Neanderthals impacted modern human phenotypes and our evolutionary history -- but these questions are relevant and interesting in the reverse case, too," said Akey.
They realized that the offspring of those first waves of Neanderthal-modern matings must have stayed with the Neanderthals, therefore leaving no record in living humans. "Because we can now incorporate the Neanderthal component into our genetic studies, we are seeing these earlier dispersals in ways that we weren't able to before," Akey said.
The final piece of the puzzle was discovering that the Neanderthal population was even smaller than previously believed.
Genetic modeling has traditionally used variation -- diversity -- as a proxy for population size. The more diverse the genes, the larger the population. But using IBDmix, Akey's team showed that a significant amount of that apparent diversity came from DNA sequences that had been lifted from modern humans, with their much larger population.
As a result, the effective population of Neanderthals was revised down from about 3,400 breeding individuals down to about 2,400.
Put together, the new findings paint a picture of how the Neanderthals vanished from the record, some 30,000 years ago.
"I don't like to say 'extinction,' because I think Neanderthals were largely absorbed," said Akey. His idea is that Neanderthal populations slowly shrank until the last survivors were folded into modern human communities.

It was common sense, due to the long overlap of the populations known from the archeologic record many decades ago. The populations obviously had merged, and not in one migration but with contracts happening all the time.
How did the silly great migration and replacement ("out of Africa") theory ever took hold? The problem with silly theories is that they do seem to die a funeral at a time...
 
The link above suggests that there were only about 2400 breeding pairs of Neanderthals. that seems way to small to dominate a larger modern human population.
 
Honestly, innonimatu, I do think you're fighting a lonely battle on this. The "out of Africa" theory remains the most popular theory of human origins among paleoanthropologists today, so your continued insistence that it's dying out isn’t realistic. You keep on linking to articles that you claim undermine it when they don't at all. This is because, among other things, that theory does not state that, after Homo sapiens spread out of Africa, they completely replaced other humans and did not interbreed with them. You seem to think that it does, but it does not. It only states that Homo sapiens were already Homo sapiens before they left Africa. That is perfectly compatible with their interbreeding with other kinds of human after that point and with the continued presence of Neanderthal (or other) DNA in our genome.

The very article that you link to states:

article said:
The hominins who are our most direct ancestors split from the Neanderthal family tree about 600,000 years ago, then evolved our modern physical characteristics about 250,000 years ago.

"From then until the Neanderthals disappeared -- that is, for about 200,000 years -- modern humans have been interacting with Neanderthal populations," [Akey] said.

Akey states explicitly that Homo sapiens were physically modern humans before they began interacting with Neanderthals. That is a clear endorsement of the "out of Africa" theory. There is no suggestion there whatsoever that the interaction with Neanderthals was one of the things that made Homo sapiens into physically modern humans. But that is what you would need for this to be a rejection of "out of Africa".

The article goes on to say:

article said:
"Our models show that there wasn't a long period of stasis, but that shortly after modern humans arose, we've been migrating out of Africa and coming back to Africa, too," [Akey] said. "To me, this story is about dispersal, that modern humans have been moving around and encountering Neanderthals and Denisovans much more than we previously recognized."

Again, an absolutely explicit endorsement of the "out of Africa" theory. I don't really see how this could be any clearer. He says that modern humans have been migrating out of Africa (and back into it) "after modern humans arose". That means that they arose in Africa.

Certainly the picture is more complex than the simple notion that Homo sapiens evolved in Africa, then moved out and simply replaced all other human species by out-competing or killing them. The idea that we have no ancestry from Neanderthals, Denisovans, and others is long gone. But that doesn't mean a rejection of the "out of Africa" theory. It just means it's more complex than people originally thought. The key basic idea, that Homo sapiens were already anatomically modern humans before they left Africa, remains in place. The genetic contribution from other human groups to our modern genome still exists but it is vastly less significant to our genetics and physiology than what originally evolved in Africa.
 
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Claiming "out of Africa" is false is just a way of saying that "white" humans have a different ancestry than the rest of human kind.
 
Honestly, innonimatu, I do think you're fighting a lonely battle on this. The "out of Africa" theory remains the most popular theory of human origins among paleoanthropologists today, so your continued insistence that it's dying out isn’t realistic. You keep on linking to articles that you claim undermine it when they don't at all. This is because, among other things, that theory does not state that, after Homo sapiens spread out of Africa, they completely replaced other humans and did not interbreed with them. You seem to think that it does, but it does not. It only states that Homo sapiens were already Homo sapiens before they left Africa. That is perfectly compatible with their interbreeding with other kinds of human after that point and with the continued presence of Neanderthal (or other) DNA in our genome.

Akey states explicitly that Homo sapiens were physically modern humans before they began interacting with Neanderthals. That is a clear endorsement of the "out of Africa" theory. There is no suggestion there whatsoever that the interaction with Neanderthals was one of the things that made Homo sapiens into physically modern humans. But that is what you would need for this to be a rejection of "out of Africa".

The out of africa theory (and to be clear, even if I think we all who have been discussing it know it: it is about the emergence and spread of homo sapiens, not the far more ancient migrations) insisted on a "great replacement", with the extinction of all other branches of hominids, which got replaced in a great migration.

This latest evidence points in a completely opposite way: the migrations kept happening for hundreds of thousands of years, with mixing of populations ongoing all that time. Which, evidently, would happen not just "out of Africa" but also into Africa. There was never any reason to suppose that continent, much less a region of it, nearly isolated for tens or hundreds of thousands of years. It is an offence to common sense.

My point is that the two vast landmasses of the "old world", Eurasia and Africa, have been interconnected during the whole two millions years of human evolution. Not just the land connection, the Mediterranean was not a hard barrier. There was no barrier to populations mixing, even it it took a group a couple of centuries to travel some thounsands of kilometers. The "one great migration" theory never made any sense. Nor does it make sense that homo sapiens evolved in any one smal region isolated and then spread as a "finished product". The spread and mixing must have happened from the beginnings in an ongoing basis, within Africa and to Eurasia also. That some habitats favoured specialized populations (or the specialization of populations) did not made those separate races other the fast few hundreds of thousands of years, and did not made sucha versatile anumal as humans are unable to move to other regions. If earlier hominids had migrated out of Africa and aspread across Eurasia in prior waves, many hundreds of thousands of years previously, what ever could explain a lack of migration during the development of homo sapiens?

The out of Africa hypothesis was accepted without serious evidence to back it, and was always illogical. Everyone discussing it sould recall its original claims, because as those fell the people who invested their reputation into the theory have been moving the claims. But, dishonestly, refusing to repudiate the whole thing and admit the mistake. The original claim was a "great replacement" around 60 thousand years ago, and the extermination of all other populations in its path. Anyone saying of that postulated migration "but they could have interbred" was regarded as a crank and shunned. In this century lost of genetic material has finally forced the acceptance of the "admistuce hipothsis". Whatr this group points out, typical homo sapiens genetic material in neanderthals, shows that the mixing happened, and happened much, much before the dates claimed by the out of Africa theorists for the great migration they postulated. Changing the goalposts, after evidence of intermixing became undeniable (with genetics, the skeletal evidence had been dismissed and its presenters defamed), the claim for the out of Africa replacemente with homo sapiens was shifted to some 200 thousand years ago. That does not get a pass. The theory has been falsified. What you are trying to excuse is the equivalent of people putting epicycles on the geocentric model of the solar system.

The very idea that homo sapiens is a fundamentally distinct branch of mankind (or rather, that the claimed extinct branches that in fact merged into what are now "modern humans" were fundamentally different) cannot stand in face of the evidence of intermixing. Contrary to what @Birdjaguar says, it is the out of Africa theory that was born of an era of racist scientists to whom different "races" of humans were backwards or modern, with the modern necessarily exterminating the backwards. They were, as were almost all "cultured men" even past the mid 20th century, infected with eugenics and its worldview of competition and extermination.

This is a puzzle still with many missing pieces. And this evidence, like previous genetic evidence, involves statistical inference. I'm aware that there is no fenitoive proof to say "human evolution went like this", But there is sufficient proof to say "that theory was wrong".
 
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Yes, but no scientists today believe in that version of the "out of Africa" theory. So aren't you just tilting at windmills? Who are you arguing against? Just people from 75 or 100 years ago?

As I pointed out, the article you linked to was about the work of Joshua Akey, who is quoted as explicitly endorsing the modern version of the "out of Africa" theory. So you need to be clear about this: are you saying that Akey is completely wrong to endorse that theory? In which case, how can you cite him as an authority for your own views? Or are you not saying this? In which case, what are you saying?

Put it like this: we can distinguish (broadly) between two versions of the "out of Africa" theory. The original one, where Homo sapiens simply replaced other human species, and the modern one, where things were far more complicated. All of the evidence that you've cited (when it's relevant to human origins at all) is evidence against the original theory, but it's consistent with the modern theory. So it seems that you're arguing against the original theory. But at other times it seems you reject the modern theory as well. You don't want Africa to have any privileged position in the evolution of Homo sapiens at all, and you seem to think that Homo sapiens evolved basically everywhere at the same time, as Milford Wolpoff holds. But if this is what you're arguing, you never seem to give any evidence to support it in favour of the modern "out of Africa" theory.

You characterise the "out of Africa" theory as slowly receding "one funeral at a time". But this isn't an accurate description of either version of the theory. The original version is defunct - nobody believes it. The modern version is thriving - most scientists believe it, including (I think) all of the scientists you have cited in support of your own views. This makes it very hard to tell who you're actually arguing against.

You talk about "moving the goalposts", but that is how science works. Theories are refined in the light of new evidence. There's plenty of evidence to support the current version of the "out of Africa" hypothesis - e.g. the fact that indigenous populations have less genetic diversity the further they are from east Africa. But you never say anything about this evidence.

Finally, it honestly makes no sense to me to say that a theory that claims that all humans alive today belong to a single species, with a common history, which is fundamentally African, is a "racist" theory. I don't think many racists would be happy to think of themselves as basically African. Early "scientific" racism was associated with the exactly opposite theory, namely polygenesis, according to which different "races" had different evolutionary origins and were consequently different species.
 
No, I am not tilting and windmills.

People have naive ideas that science is settled now, even if it wasn't 30 years ago, or 50. It isn't. Theories about pre-history keep being created and overthrown.

This story, while unrelated to the topic here, is worth reading as an example of such fights still ongoing. Who heard about the kurgan hypothesis, and believed it? Believes it now, perhaps?

It was based on very flimsy claims. Wishful thinking.

The same thinh happened with those theories about early hominids abnd their migrations. They were created from very flimsy evidence, mrere working hypothesis. And since then there's plenty of data accumulated aginst them. Unfortunately they were published and popularzed as authoritative.
 
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