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More historical outcomes?

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by cmakk1012, Nov 16, 2018.

  1. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    There are a few things in-game that don’t ever seem to happen as they did historically:

    —Morocco never gets involved in Iberia, mostly because Córdoba doesn’t collapse. I know that naval invasions are a total non-starter for the AI—maybe a better solution would be for Córdoba to collapse in the 11th century and for Morocco to spawn owning parts of Iberia?

    —Austria always underperforms because Hungary is so strong: it usually ends up a vassal of Germany! Maybe Hungary should be less stable so that Austria could expand into it?

    —Norway always declares war on France but because of naval invasions failing never actually raids as they did historically. Don’t know how to fix that..

    EDIT 1: —No Hundred Years’ War. Basically France conquers Caen and possibly an English Bretagne and then England is never seen on the continent again. Could England spawn with Nantes?

    EDIT 2: —There should be a slightly higher chance for the Crusaders that conquer Jerusalem to keep it longer, in order for Crusades to go elsewhere (Egypt, Tunis) like they did historically. Jerusalem should be lost eventually, but it shouldn’t be the only target for Crusade besides bribed missions to Constantinople (which do happen)
    I’ll add any others I think of.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
    Dominus the Mentat likes this.
  2. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Yes, it take a player if you want to see the 100 years war. Maybe we should apply how Aragon takes Sicily and south Italy. They used to do that if spain is not OP af. But true that even aragon fails to take thessaly 10 out of 10.
    But austria is not that bad...they are still the scourge of europe after 1600+.
     
  3. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    Someone, I think it was @Leoreth over on the DoC subforum, suggested a possible separate Anglo-Saxon and Norman civ, with the former spawning really early and I guess trying to unify England and fend off the Vikings and Normans. That way the Norman spawn could flip more of France...
     
    EdmundIronside likes this.
  4. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    It would make more sense for England to flip/get a event for Aquitaine (i.e. Bordeaux), I think. It was a much more integral English possession for much longer than Brittany, even more so than Normandy IIRC.
     
    cmakk1012 likes this.
  5. 8ha8ha

    8ha8ha Chieftain

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    Ottoman player can conquer Austria WITHOUT conquest Hungary, I think it is quite strange actually. Yes I agree that Hungary is too strong compare with the performance in History. It give too much pressure to Austria especially the UB is too disgusting to invader.
     
  6. 8ha8ha

    8ha8ha Chieftain

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    And I don't think Denmark is so weak compare with Sweden. I can't even see the Denmark survive before the protestant reformation
     
  7. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    Hungary needs to be more of the paper tiger that it was historically. It is way too strong in game. Not that it should be weak, because like England it was able to punch well above its own weight, but when push comes to shove, Hungary shouldn't be conquering all of Central/Southeastern Europe. The lack of a sophisticated tax base, and infrastructure, like that which existed in the old Roman Empire lands limited the power of Hungary's monarchs.

    So yes, Austria does really underperform.
     
  8. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I'm nerfing Hungary every now and then, but it's not that simple.
    It should be very powerful up until 1500, for more than 600 years.
    Was dominating all of Austria, Bohemia, Wallachia and Moldavia just decades before the Ottoman conquest. The most of Bosnia and todays central Serbia were Hungarian military zones for centuries.

    Even Eu4 struggles to represent this, and it's way harder here, within the rules of Civilization.
    On top of that, eu4 starts in the 1400s, so only a fragment of this needs to be represented. Much easier to add huge nerfs to Hungary there compared to their historical power/role.

    I don't really see any other options than the Ottomans.
    If the superpower of that era didn't wreck medieval Hungary, it would have remained dominant in the region.
    Austria or the southern Balkan states didn't stand a chance up until that.

    The AI Ottomans already have insane bonuses, and oriented against the Balkans and Hungary.
    Not really sure how to improve that situation.
     
  9. Orbii

    Orbii Chieftain

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    Well with the addition of what I believe to be the first conqueror stacks tied to a civ (rather than barbarians), that is always a blunt-tool approach. I am unfortunately not very well versed in the historical record surrounding the Ottoman expansion into Hungary, so I can't say for sure how appropriate Ottoman conquerors against Hungary would be.
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Actually I was experimenting with exactly that in the last couple days.
    English army during the 100 years war.
    Moroccan conquer stack in southern Iberia if Cordoba is collapsed
    Ottomans armies in the Balkans and Hungary.

    I'm statisfied with the Moroccan one, and the English also works reasonably well.
    Not perfect, some city flips might work better (as a couple posters noted recently), but not that bad either.

    The Ottoman ones are not successful though.
    Since it's a much bigger area, and many civs can hold ground in the Balkans (and sometimes it's full of independents), it doesn't really work well, even with multiple stacks.
    Either huge gaps will remain, or just randomly connected areas.
    In particular, giving a conquering army directly in Hungary results in very strange results.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
    cmakk1012 likes this.
  11. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Would you mind making new posts too?
    I would prefer that. Didn't see your edits up until now.
     
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  12. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    Definitely, sorry about that!
     
  13. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    I think to help this issue, we need to tweak the ottoman UHV's too. Taking down hungary as ottomans is a logistic nightmare. First you need an army in the balkan, then shift toward east while defending the north-west, then move all forces from egypt to meddle europe...
    In my tries usually i cannot do that in time. I can do all uhv by ~1600 but in the required time. The AI expands in every direction slowly and steadily.
    Maybe try to put an extra invading army around belgrad and a forced Dow in 1500+
     
  14. The Low King

    The Low King Chieftain

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    Hungary should be very strong early on. In 1490 they were one of the most powerful nations in Europe, having conquered Austria, Bohemia, Silesia, were interfering in Italy and had pushed back the Ottomans. After that however, they fell into a prolonged period of internal conflict and civil war, which weakend them enough that they collapsed the next time the Ottomans invaded.

    For a Historical game, Hungary should be very strong, but have something happen after 1490 that causes them to collapse. That could be a Stability drop, Rebellions, Spawned Ottoman armies or something else, but it should cause an AI Hungary to fall apart and be conquered by Austria and the Ottomans. That would also buff Austria, giving them the opportunity to become the power they developed into.
     
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  15. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    I'm sure other mods have a scripted drop in stability for certain civs after they reach their historical date of decline, encouraging secessions and collapses. Something like that could work well for Hungary, to trim them back to the Carpathian, and also for Cordoba and the Byzantines.

    Also is it possible to script a 'culture bomb' type effect for the Ottomans, so that they have a scripted spread of culture in the Balkans? IIRC Venice used to have a similar mechanic, which made Ragusa flip to them after several turns. A similar mechanic could see the Byzantines and Hungary collapse in the Balkans, then the Ottomans flip some of the indie cities to them.
     
  16. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    The mod already have that mechanic, Absitnhe could maybe adjust it a little bit. Culture on the other hand, could use a total rework.
     
  17. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Indeed, we already have that mechanic in place. Actually I added it quite long ago, probably even for 1.1?
    But yeah, might be beneficial to increase the penalty for some specific civs.
    In my experience they don't really have a problem with conquering indy cities on the Balkans.
    Achieving more independent cities in the area should already improve significantly on the situation.
     
  18. The Low King

    The Low King Chieftain

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    A relations penalty with Poland, Austria and Germany after a certain date might also be good, Hungary did end up at war with all of of them and that heavily contributed to their collapse. Not sure how well it would work if they are really strong, but on top of a stability penalty it might cause a complete collapse.
     

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