More independent cities!!! (and other suggestions)

dragodon64

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I believe so. In my current game as Japan, Khmer is my vassal, and after I conquered 2 Mongolian cities (currently own all of china), their empire collapsed, and the Khmer took 4 independent cities from the Silk Road to Siberia (yet they never captured Burma...). Apparently giving them iron was a great move.

The AI manages conquering African natives quite well, but I think proximity plays an unnecessarily large decision in their colony-founding: The western Sahara often has 2-3 European cities while the entire coast from Zanzibar to South Africa is Euro-free; the latter is far more useful than the former could ever be.

I've seen Spain colonize SA to a mild extent- Buenos Aires, Montevideo and Caracas are common sights, but conquerors are still a pretty rare thing for them.
 

Lone Wolf

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Could it be because the AI are always at war with the two Independent nations and thus find it easier to fight a war againt independent cities?

Yes. Also, in one of the patches Rhye made the AI afraid of independents less, whatever that means.

In my experience, BTS AI is worse, if anything at overseas colonization then Warlords AI.
 

Louis XIV

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Madurai is not the same city as Madras, the latter dates back to 1640 whereas the former dates back to the 2nd millenium BC. Also, Madurai is a big city in India today, why would it need to be renamed?

The reason India spawns on the Ganga and not the Indus is becasue Gangetic civilization from the Vedic period, which is a mix of Dravidian and Aryan, is the foundation for most south Asian cultures. Basing India off of Mohenjo-Daro would be like basing Turkey off of Hattusas.

Cities like Cadiz, Thessaloniki, Hippo and Ctesiphon are the responsibility of the respective civs to found. There is nothing independent about them. For the others, even though historically speaking it might be okay, gameplay suggests otherwise. I know from experience, because I had at one point added a dozen or so independents to the 3000BC map, and every old world civ was horribly stunted by the spawn of the Arabs.

True about Madurai, it isn't the same city as Madras, but according to the gameplay map, it would be in roughly the same spot, which is why I suggested it. Madurai was also one of the largest cities in the world in 600AD (around 70,000 est. people). Maybe have it Madurai when it's controlled by India, then change to Madras if taken by the English?

Also, while you're right about the Gangetic civilization being spawned during the Vedic period, look at the history of India before the Vedic period (ie. when the game starts in 3000BC). The Vedics basically spawned from the Harappans expanding east of the Indus Valley region from around 1500 BC (I know this isn't universally accepted, but it fits the game as that's about the amount of time needed to build a settler). Not to mention that Hinduism originally came from the Indus valley as well.

India has only really been a unified civilization since the end of the Raj, and adding a few strategic independents/native cities would reflect the proper situation in 600AD India and also allow for better colonization of India. As Blizzard posted, the European civs' AI tends to attack independent cities far more than colonize open areas.

The other cities you listed I suggested, I apologize, I was responding to the poster about cities for the 600AD start, not the 3000 BC start, as you're right, cities like Cadiz, Hippo and Thessaloniki should be built by civs like the Greeks and Carthaginians, however, in 600 AD both of those civs are dead and gone.

And Cethegus' suggestion for switching the HG tech to masonry would work fabulously.
 

Lone Wolf

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and adding a few strategic independents/native cities would reflect the proper situation in 600AD India and also allow for better colonization of India. As Blizzard posted, the European civs' AI tends to attack independent cities far more than colonize open areas.

That's not exactly true. They succesfully attack the independents near home, but an overseas invasion is not a given.
 

dragodon64

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Also, while you're right about the Gangetic civilization being spawned during the Vedic period, look at the history of India before the Vedic period (ie. when the game starts in 3000BC). The Vedics basically spawned from the Harappans expanding east of the Indus Valley region from around 1500 BC (I know this isn't universally accepted, but it fits the game as that's about the amount of time needed to build a settler). Not to mention that Hinduism originally came from the Indus valley as well.

I agree that the impact of Aryan versus Indus Valley cultures on Vedic civilization is pretty foggy, but the origin of Hinduism is easily just as complex. Many of the gods (Shiva being the only notable exception) came from the Aryan's religion, as did a primitive version of a caste based society. Still, I honestly don't think Hinduism can, to any worthwhile extent, be said to have been founded before the Vedic Period. On a side note, virtually none of Hinduism's holiest places or events are today near the Indus, although that is more because history has "erased" them.
 

blizzrd

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That's not exactly true. They succesfully attack the independents near home, but an overseas invasion is not a given.

The AI successfully attacks independents via land, without really being affected by how close to home they are. I've seen most ancient civs conquer Korea at one time or another for example.

The AI is less successful at attacking independents/natives via invasion, but they are still significantly better at attacking independents via the sea than attacking another AI civ via the sea.
 

Lone Wolf

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The AI successfully attacks independents via land, without really being affected by how close to home they are. I've seen most ancient civs conquer Korea at one time or another for example.

That's because their exploring units bump into undefended or barely-defended Seoul. With, say, Europeans and India, that wouldn't work - they'll need many OB's.
 

dragodon64

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I typically see Korea in the hands of either Japan or China, with an occasional Persia (and once a Greece). Do the other ancients typically conquer it for anyone else?
 

blizzrd

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I should have said Classical, as opposed to Ancient. But I've also seen Rome and Carthage conquer Korea.
 

BenZL43

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Agreed. Luoyang and Chengdu definitely need to be added.

Other cities that could possibly be added include Madurai (India - can change to Madras later), Sandra Pura (modern-day Jakarta), Palembang (Sumatra), Vishakapatnam (India), Sirmium (Byzantine), Cadiz (Byzantine), Philippoupolis (Byzantine), Thessaloniki (Byzantine), Hippo (Byzantine), Ctesiphon (modern-day Baghdad - Sassanid Empire), Kabul/Bamiyan (Sassanid Empire), and/or Herat (Sassanid Empire).

Where do you get information that Jakarta was named Sandra Pura before ?
Anyway, I'm all out for adding the Independent cities, make the worlds more crowded, especially the archipelagos and something to represent the Melanesian peoples..

And for my homeland...
I hate to see that how Khmer settler miraculously 'fell from the sky' ..At least there shall be a city called Sri Vijaya (Modern day Palembang) over there.. so do Maluku, to spawn around the starts of Discovery Age, the Spice islands Portuguese and Spanish want it so badly that starts the Discovery Age to find the route to 'India'.. and which lead to Zaragoza Agreement, if I remember correctly .. CMIIW :)
 
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Tondo should not be in the game, but a Native city Zugbo (Renamed to Cebu when Spanish conquered it, Su'wu when Chinese conquered it, Sugbo when Khmer conquered it) but I believe our culture here is quite insignificant enough to be included in the game :(

Needs more native cities in Indonesia that represents Atjeh or Makassar.
An independent city named Urumqi to represent Xinjiang Uyghur.
Some natives in North America to represent Cherokee, South America for the Tupi?
The continent that needs more representation is definitely Africa.
 

lumpthing

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Since my accidental post prompted renewed interest in this thread... this is where I meant to post it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=361905 (great modmod that is constantly being improved). Ideas for reforming RFC would be more fruitfully posted there.

Unfortunately the independent cities I proposed for the Malay Archipelago (Indonesia etc) will not be added on the grounds that the AI is too stupid to conquer island-cities.
 
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You just need adequate AI war maps, and to make sure that the AI supposed to conquer islands has some worthy coastal cities (that for the ships).
 

BenZL43

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Awesome :)
It's all starts from the accidental post rofl
Let's keep this thread alive, shall not we ?
Why AI do not want to conquer Island-Cities ?
 

Alexius08

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Awesome :)
It's all starts from the accidental post rofl
Let's keep this thread alive, shall not we ?
Why AI do not want to conquer Island-Cities ?

Unless they have berserkers or marines, AI is afraid of the penalty on amphibious invasions.
 

Leoreth

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The AI has problems with organizing naval attacks in general, like ferrying the right amount of troops to the right place in time etc.
 

BenZL43

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and it's not fixable ?
So unfortunately, we won't effectively see a great thalassocracy Civs ? :(
Allright then..
 
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