More Ships ... More Beauty ... More Flavour [IMPLEMENTED]



















 

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Beautiful images.

Whats the discussion? Cinematic scenes?

Expanding the list of ships in-game? (Yes please, never enough.)

Is this just a placeholder thread until whoever is "internal" is done discussing?
 
Expanding the list of ships in-game? (Yes please, never enough.)
For now:
  • Improving WOI (giving King 2 more Ship)
  • More Ships (buts stronger specialized)
  • More Ship Promotions (for further specialization paths)
  • Rebalancing Ship Costs (making them more expensive / valuable)
... until whoever is "internal" is done discussing?
"Internal" are WTP core modders + befriended modders and supporters.
Basically the people that actively contribute.

I first need to figure out if there are modders that would support or even cooperate (especially graphical modders)
I will not work on this all alone without enough support. Maybe even somebody else takes responsibility.

-----

Once I know how much support or cooperation I get I will know how big / detailled I can make this concept.
 
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Id love to see broader range in ships, probably need to change strength scale (again) to make worthwhile variety of specs. And I'd be happy to help with research and contributing to charting specs (still compiling natural wonder list we talked bout elsewhere) but still have no program skill yet.
 
Those are nice ships.English and french battlelines. However ingame we are not the british Empire or France - we play the colonial New England or New France and those fine fleets of Ships of the Line are mainly those we only should be able to observe as the fleets of the Motherland for most of the game.

The navy of the US during the rebellion against England was never able to compete with the english, not even later in the war of 1812. It had singular successes - but over all it was the french and to some extent the spanish navy that did the heavy lifting for the US during the WoI.The same is true for the navy of any other colonial nation compared to the navy of the motherland.

So the whole naval force should never be more important than winning on land and Ships of the Line should be a prize to be built and manage for the late game.
 
But there is quite a number of ships that were quite common that we don't have in-game. Brigs and gunboats and Barques aren't anywhere to be seen, or if anything are kinda smushed into other classes. Privateer is a profession more than a ship class, but that likely matches a Brig by comparison as currently spec'd. Gunboats could be large river capable and barred from open ocean. I still maintain that (at an absolutely outrageous expense) colonies should be able to obtain any ship the king has. But thats been shot down already because it didn't happen historically.
Speed vs tonnage vs strength vs cost could absolutely allow for more diversity and specialization even among just merchant classes
 
As I explained here I intend to also diversify by cargo types.
But to realize my concepts I simply need more ships to work with ...

So if I get only a few more historically correct ships for Colonies and only 1 Royal Frigate for Kings it would already help me.
But I need to discuss this with the graphical modders what they can give me ...

-------

E.g. we would need "UnitArtStyles" for the different Colonanial Nations and Kings.
Also I do not want to integrate Ships with missing animations for e.g. combat.

The only remaining Civ4Col modder that has ever done that is @Schmiddie, but he is currently not actively modding.
This is not dying because of ideas, but it may die because of lacking graphics ...
 
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If we decide on specific vessels, I might have a friend I could persuade to help with specific graphic needs. Is there a term/designation for the type of file you'd need? Size or pixel or some such? Sorry I know nothing of the vernacular. But he's into game design, I could pull up a base image of a vessel of the particular type, and see if he could create the apropos graphic.

And let me see if I understand your intent for 2nd Kings ship. A royal frigate, probably in between colonial frigate and SotL, would it replace the majority of royal fleet, leaving only a handful of MoW? Because that would actually work wonders towards my complaint of not being able to acquire MoW.

While the colonies never matched the numbers, especially by the war of 1812 American frigates could easily best a British equivalent. Couldn't match a MoW or upper rate SotL, but the Constitution (US Navy Flagship to this day) and her sisters definitely showed they could build a competent ship. Most Americans don't know/realize we really lost that war, but it did change the dynamic. Technically post colonization era, true. But how many western hemisphere nations weren't independent until 19th or even 20th centuries (or still are not)?
 
Considering the "Rebuild of REF Fleet":

My current concept is to give the King 3 Ships:

1. Royal Troop Galleons (transporting troops also able to bombard but weaker than Man-O-Wars) <--- biggest part of the Royal Fleet
2. Royal Man-O-Wars (strong if defending and also able to bombard - but slow) <--- guarding the Troop Transports (but fewer)
3. Royal Frigates (fast and strong attackers) <--- actively seeking / huntig colonial ships, trying to keep them away from Royal Fleet

----

So the Royal Fleet will have 3 distinct roles:
(All of them a bit stronger than their Colonial equivalents)
  • Transport (60%)
  • Guard (20%)
  • Hunter (20%)
 
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Ship types for the age of cc. 1600 - 1850:
I have made the ships (with statisticcs for a different game).
Both merchant and warships.
Still needs graphics.

Tartane
Pinnace
Sloop
Cutter
Galiot
Galeas
Scooner
Sloop of War
Brigantine
Brig
Fast Brig
War Brig
Barque
Fluyt (Dutch)
Merchantman
Trade flute ship
Corvette
Flyboat
Caravel
West Indianman
Frigate
Heavy frigate
Military frigate
French frigate
French War Frigate
Carrack
Galleon
Fast galleon
Spanish galleon
Trade Galleon
Treasure galleon
East Indiaman (1620 min)
War galleon
Royal Galleon
Ship Of The Line
Royal Liner
Man o`War
 
Ray, that sounds like an excellent balance and much more immersive!

Modmod, thats an awesome list and includes a couple I'll have to look into, since I've not heard of them. And I like the distinction of the French frigate because there was a serious difference between French design and terms for frigates and their British counterparts. Problem there is getting into unique ships for each nation. While not something I'd hate, would take a lot of effort to prevent it from unbalancing the nations dramatically. Compare a French frigate with a Dutch Fluyt and its easy to see who gets a bum deal. Obviously some powers would have an advantage towards more powerful navies, but this would be a /lot/ of work.

Only omissions that came immediately to mind from your list are either already included, or

Chasse Marie, (small trader, possibly represented by large coastal boats)
And representation of the variety of Barques. There were everything from shallow draft Barques meant for coastal or short island hopping trips, barkentines, some suited to very light patrol work, up to large, slow vessels that tottered back and forth to Europe, but in no hurry. It was a very broad term.

And we (or at least I) could easily get lost in the minutiae and make dozens of classes, but it might be best to see the execution of new cargo system Ray mentioned above, and then see where specialization of current ships leaves gaps, and what is best suited to fill those gaps.

I have no clue how to execute this idea, but virtually any ship, depending on the situation and need, could get a few extra cannons strapped on, get a pat on the butt, and sent to war. Or patrol for pirates. Or /be/ pirates.

Think you're about to sweep in with your corvette and snatch that fluyt, get a rude surprise. Probably the hardest part would be teaching AI to use it effectively
 
Problem there is getting into unique ships for each nation. While not something I'd hate, would take a lot of effort to prevent it from unbalancing the nations dramatically. Compare a French frigate with a Dutch Fluyt and its easy to see who gets a bum deal.

That is a problem for folks who care much about equality and call it balancing. :nono:
Nations in history were unbalanced in power, capabilities, advantages and in countless other aspects.

As for me up to date the best role model Crusader kings 2 about balancing.
One start as emperor with 10 midlle developed castle and 10.000+ trooops, another count starts with one poor castle and 300 troops.

That is no matter if ships are not equal, other (again unbalanced) stuff makes nations close in overall power.
Minor colonial powers still will be weaker, and that is real. ;)
 
That is a problem for folks who care much about equality and call it balancing. :nono:
Nations in history were unbalanced in power, capabilities, advantages and in countless other aspects.

As for me up to date the best role model Crusader kings 2 about balancing.
One start as emperor with 10 midlle developed castle and 10.000+ trooops, another count starts with one poor castle and 300 troops.

That is no matter if ships are not equal, other (again unbalanced) stuff makes nations close in overall power.
Minor colonial powers still will be weaker, and that is real. ;)
While I personally agree with you, I've seen a lot of emphasis on "equality" and not having any nation be too OP. I mean, if we want to be particular, Spain should have a lot more free troops early on, hordes of them, as it was easy to load up a boatload of hardened bloodthirsty veterans from fighting Muslims looking for the next war for gold and blood. Piracy should almost be a non issue for the British, as their Navy (and the proportion of the privateers that were carrying British marques) would have definitely made them safer than some of the other colonial efforts.
 
My current concept is to give the King 3 Ships:

1. Royal Troop Galleons (transporting troops also able to bombard but weaker than Man-O-Wars) <--- biggest part of the Royal Fleet
2. Royal Man-O-Wars (strong if defending and also able to bombard- but slow) <--- guarding the Troop Transports (but fewer)
3. Royal Frigates (fast and strong attackers) <--- actively seeking / huntig colonial ships, trying to keep them away from Royal Fleet

You could add a fourth, Royal Sloop-O-Wars (fast antipiracy patrols, decent withdrawal chance)
 
You could add a fourth, Royal Sloop-O-Wars (fast antipiracy patrols, decent withdrawal chance)
The King AI has no usage for that.
It is all about winning War of Independence.
 
The King AI has no usage for that.
It is all about winning War of Independence.

Yes but the player knows how to use pirates against the king during the war for independence. The player also uses smugglers to keep themselves economically afloat during this period.

Therefore it would make sense for the king to have dedicated naval vessels to stop the player from using pirates to attack their transports and cut them off from trading with Europe by sinking the smugglers.
 
Yes but the player knows how to use pirates against the king during the war for independence. The player also uses smugglers to keep themselves economically afloat during this period.

All covered by this here:
Royal Frigates (fast and strong attackers) <--- actively seeking / huntig colonial ships, trying to keep them away from Royal Fleet

3 specialized Ships should be enough for the King. :dunno:
Everything else will make implementation of "WOI Overhaul" unnecessarily complicated considering UnitAIs.
(And since Human player would not get access to it, it would be effort without gameplay benefit to add more.)
 
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