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Morocco

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Oct 17, 2014.

  1. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Civilians move faster in Desert.

    Not sure if slow desert movement is going to be added in CPP, if it isn't this will need to be changed.

    Your outgoing trade routes with different civilizations earn more Gold and Culture, and incoming trade routes earn more Gold for the owner of the route.

    This is Moroccos main issue imo, the UA is just plain terrible. It is going to give you a few extra GPT while usually giving your neighbors way more, and its lack of scaling(other than you getting more traderoutes that you have to send to inferior cities just to keep it going) quickly makes it irrelevant.
    IMO this needs a complete remake but I haven't gone one stored up, any suggestions would be appreciated.


    Unique Unit: Berber (Cavalry)

    I think their unique promotions are kept when upgraded and in that case this unit is fine (even if i think Cavalry in general lack a role in the game)

    Unique Improvement: Kasbah

    This have always been a point of great discussion, a lot of people claim they are completely overpowered because if you build a Kasbah on a hill next to a city with petra and desert folklore you get something like 2food 4 production 1 gold and 1 faith. I myself have always been on the complete opposite side of the discussion claiming that without petra (and now with the removal of desert folklore) the UI is pretty damn weak, you either replace a farm on a floodplain (usually not worth it) or you replace a mine on a desert hill(usually worth it) leaving it extremely limited.
    My suggestion would be not balancing it with petra in mind(since petra is crazyOP and should probably be fixed anyways) and balance it around only being buildable on flat deserttiles (no hills, no floodplains, no resources) turning them into decent tiles.

    The suggestions would be something like:

    1: +2Food +1Gold from the start later on turning into +3Food +2Gold

    2: +1Food +2Production from the start later on turning into +2Food +3Production

    3: +1Food +1Production +1Gold from the start later on turning into +2Food +2Production +2Gold

    4: +2Food +1Gold from the start later on turning into +2Food +3Gold

    5: +1Food +1Production +1Gold from the start later on turning into +1Food +1Production +3Gold

    6: +1Food +2Gold from the start later on turning into +1Food +4Gold



    Honestly any combination of bonuses would work, and I'm personally not very knowledgable about Kasbahs so I can't really say what would make more sense, I'm just trying to bring them into line with the other UIs.
    Also it is quite obvious that the petra wouldn need to be nerfed significally or made not work with the kasbah at all or there would be balanceissues.

    As always any suggestions would help
     
  2. BigBadBear

    BigBadBear Chieftain

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    It's early here, I'm without coffee atm, so probably about as sharp as a boulder.
    Anyway: UA suggestions.
    1. if it does not already, let the current UA scale the player side bonus per era?
    2. Give Morroco an extra trade route per era?
    3. Let the trade routes generate tourism?

    I actually think the Kasbah yields are fine as they are now. Desert folklore in the community patch only works on improved resources on tiles, right? So the crazy-superpowered-hills are a thing of the past. Petra gives +1 food and prod. At most you have 2 food, 3 prod, 1 gold tile. Powerful, yes. But how often do we generate maps with that many hills in deserts?
    On a side note: does the AI know how to prioritze Kasbahs?
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    First 2 are easy solutions, kinda boring but easy enough. Third one I'm not one hundred percent sure of. Morocco tourism feels kinda weird, they were all about being extremely rich and living in deserts right? :D

    Petra kasbah hills give 2food 4 prod 1 gold if I'm not mistaken, but that wasn't really the issue. The issue was that this UI relies on the petrawonder to actually be useful.
    In contrast all the other UIs are damn strong and carry their own weight (except maybe the maoi). With the current Kasbash you're going to be able to turn 0 resource desert-tiles to 1food-1production-1gold tiles, and those would hardly be worth working. You would be able to build them on floodplains, but IMO farms are just better. You would be able to build them on desert hills, giving you 1Food,3Production,1Gold tiles, and while I would value that higher than a mine it wouldn't be by much.

    That's why I am suggesting a change to the kasbah, to make it turn normal vanilla desert-tiles into something workable.

    On a sidenote, someone with programming knowhow, is it possible to make an improvement give the same yields nomatter what tile it is build on? Negating the basevalues of the tiles kinda?
     
  4. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    I dislike deserts full of kasbah, seems strange. I like the idea of a UI that isn't actually useful by itself, but boosts the tile around it. So:

    Kasbah: Defense Bonus on tile itself, +1 :c5gold: on all tiles surrounding it, buildable on desert and plains.

    As for the UA, just adding tourism seems boring, while more traderoutes is kinda already Venice's thing. I did propose the effect of "barbarians don't plunder your trade routes" which can be combined with "more range" (taken from Arabia) and the "culture on trade routes". Should be strong enough, no?

    Morocco then would be a civ that concentrates itself on the desert regions, but can still trade with everyone. Its few cities are tall and have many tiles and have a circular ring of kasbah's to defend its territory.
     
  5. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Maybe just make them even stronger and not buildable next to eachother? I dislike the idea of tiles buffing other tiles, maoi are terrible :D. Trying to make them about as powerful as the other UIs (-maoi and feitora) because that's really all I have to go on.

    About the UA, I just don't see how barbarians not plundering your traderoutes would be realistic. And also I think traderoutes should be a risk that you should have to protect. Longer caravans could work but I really dislike the idea of buffing caravans when they are so inferior to cargoships.

    Culture on traderoutes could work but I have no idea if that should be a flat amount or how you should balance it out. Making the existing UA scale with eras could work, but I'm not really 100% sure that's the best solution.
    Another idea would be giving them a gold% increase for every traderoute with different civs?(Or citystates? to make it kinda like the hanse but for gold)
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I buffed the Kasbah in a previous release, and Morocco now gains GA points in addition to Gold/Culture from Trade Routes. With the removal of yield % mods, Morocco's ability remains viable much, much longer.

    G
     
  7. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    Not sure that's enough tbh. It makes it interesting that's for sure. But I could see a free caravan at tech x (trade?) or just cheaper trade units overall. Something that helps them get the bonus and is (quite) instant :)
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    We could have them earn Great Merchants +25% faster. Gold is nice, and they'd be the only civ with this ability.

    G
     
  9. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Haven't had a chance to play them since your change but it honestly didn't seem very special. I was hoping with the removal of petra, something could be done to balance kasbahs around normal flat desert tiles.

    How is the UA balanced? Does it still only give you gold/culture for the first traderoute with everyone? Does it scale with eras now?
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The absence of % modifiers on buildings means that flat yield boosts to culture etc. are never 'outclassed' by % boosts. This means that Morocco's trade-related gains are linear, but culture growth generally is also linear. Furthermore, Morocco also gains GA points from trade routes, which means more rapid Golden Ages. No other civ has the passive ability to gain GA points.

    G
     
  11. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    It was a serious question. How have you balanced it out? Does it scale with anything? :D
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    That was a serious answer. It scales with the number of trade routes in the game. If we buff it in any fashion, we'll increase the flat gold/culture yield per trade route. I'd prefer doing that over trying to scale it to eras and/or rewrite the ability.

    G
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    You may have had a serious answer, but you didn't actually give it to me. Now you have and I'm fine with it.
    Is it still capped at one traderoute per civ like in the basegame?
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Yep.

    G
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Sounds pretty boring, but I guess I should actually check it out before I judge it
     
  16. Strigvir

    Strigvir Chieftain

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    So UA contributes 4.5% of the whole culture output. And I am going out my way to send trade routes to different civs, even had to send them to city-states, which is a terrible idea after Tourism rework.
     

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  17. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    The main part of the UA is the GAP, but yeah, moroccos UA got a lot worse after the tourismchange. (their UI is pretty insane however, and probably makes up for it)
     
  18. Cerest

    Cerest Chieftain

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    I find it extremely bizarre that Kasbahs can be build on Forest/Jungle/Marsh tiles while Shoshone encampments cannot.

    Shouldn't it be the other way around?

    Also, the UU is a bit lackluster, especially when you consider all the Shoshone units have the the defensive bonus x.x

    Morocco has been known to fight wars of attrition. Perhaps their UU can damage adjacent units/cities by a little bit in the beginning of each turn?
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The Shoshone were a plains nation, not a forest nation. Tipi-like structures were far more common on the plains.

    Not sure about the UU in terms of efficacy. I'll let others discuss that.
     
  20. Cerest

    Cerest Chieftain

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    I'm not arguing that Shoshone should be able to build encampments on Jungle/Forest/Marsh tiles. I'm wondering why Kasbahs can while encampments cannot.

    Right now I almost feel like the strength of Morroco lies in their unique improvement. Their UU is a bit blah and their UA is also a bit blah, especially with the recent tourism changes. They are one of the only civs that benefits other civs right now.

    Perhaps the great merchant idea that you had in the prior posts can be implemented? Cities that have a international trade route have earn great merchants x% faster. Maybe it can stack? It fits the "gateway to Africa" theme.
     

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