Most Efficient Army
- Thread starter Sarevok
- Start date
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
Gentlemen i would like to add my 2 cents worth. I would like to nominate the United States Marine Corps, and i believe that the way to tell about a military force is to see what your rivals and enemies think of you to start with.
Army chief of staff Eric Shinseki started forming light brigades strikingly similar to USMC units. When asked, "why the copycating"? An army officer said: "It was either copy or go out of business." Col David Hackworth US Army.
"The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines. Lord, how they could fight." MG Frank Lowe, US Army.
"The Marine Corps has just been called by the New York Times, "The elite of this country. I think it is the elite of the World." ADM. William "Bull" Halsey, US Navy.
"Among the Marines who served on Iwo Island, uncommon valor was a common virtue." ADM. Chester W. Nimitz.
"They're on our right, they're on our left, they're in front of us, they're behind us; they can't get away from us this time." Lt Gen Chester "Chesty" Puller USMC at Chon'jin resevior.
As a side note the 1st Marine division was surrounded by 7 Chinese divisions and in the process of the fight 6 of those divisions were destroyed. Leading to the orders given below.
The Marines will be leaving in a few weeks and turning over the base to the Army. I will miss them. Airman Khandahar air base.
"Do not attack the 1st Marine division. Leave the yellowlegs alone. Strike the American Army." Orders given to communist troops after Chon'jin Resevior.
"My strategy is one against ten, my tactic is ten against one." Mao Tse-Tung, quoted about facing the Marines.
"The Marines have given us our only real fight." Commanding officer of the British troops after the Burning of Washington.
As a side note the only building in Washington D.C. NOT burned by the British was the Marine barracks at 8th and I, out of respect of the Marines.
"I am convinced that there is no smarter, handier, or more adaptable body of troops, than the U.S. Marines, in the world." Prime Minister Winston Churchill.
And all you have to do is listen to the Marine Corps hymn to know some of the battles that has made the Corps Famous.
From the Halls of Montezuma; Refers to the Mexican American war and the Fortress of Chapaltepec. By the way the Duke of Wellington stated that the Fortress would "Not fall to the likes of the Marines." Boy was he ever wrong.
To the shores of Tripoli: refers to the Episode with the Barbary Pirates. The Marine officers sword is called the "Mameluke" because the Emir of Tripoli when captured by the Marines was so impressed with their fighting ability that he presented the Marine commander with the first "Mameluke" Sword. And it has been used ever since.
And then every person that likes history will know these battles: Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Inchon, and also Chon'jin resevior.
I may be biased but i think you will see that my nomination has merit.
Thanks Thorgrimm
Marine sniper team
Army chief of staff Eric Shinseki started forming light brigades strikingly similar to USMC units. When asked, "why the copycating"? An army officer said: "It was either copy or go out of business." Col David Hackworth US Army.
"The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines. Lord, how they could fight." MG Frank Lowe, US Army.
"The Marine Corps has just been called by the New York Times, "The elite of this country. I think it is the elite of the World." ADM. William "Bull" Halsey, US Navy.
"Among the Marines who served on Iwo Island, uncommon valor was a common virtue." ADM. Chester W. Nimitz.
"They're on our right, they're on our left, they're in front of us, they're behind us; they can't get away from us this time." Lt Gen Chester "Chesty" Puller USMC at Chon'jin resevior.
As a side note the 1st Marine division was surrounded by 7 Chinese divisions and in the process of the fight 6 of those divisions were destroyed. Leading to the orders given below.
The Marines will be leaving in a few weeks and turning over the base to the Army. I will miss them. Airman Khandahar air base.
"Do not attack the 1st Marine division. Leave the yellowlegs alone. Strike the American Army." Orders given to communist troops after Chon'jin Resevior.
"My strategy is one against ten, my tactic is ten against one." Mao Tse-Tung, quoted about facing the Marines.
"The Marines have given us our only real fight." Commanding officer of the British troops after the Burning of Washington.
As a side note the only building in Washington D.C. NOT burned by the British was the Marine barracks at 8th and I, out of respect of the Marines.
"I am convinced that there is no smarter, handier, or more adaptable body of troops, than the U.S. Marines, in the world." Prime Minister Winston Churchill.
And all you have to do is listen to the Marine Corps hymn to know some of the battles that has made the Corps Famous.
From the Halls of Montezuma; Refers to the Mexican American war and the Fortress of Chapaltepec. By the way the Duke of Wellington stated that the Fortress would "Not fall to the likes of the Marines." Boy was he ever wrong.
To the shores of Tripoli: refers to the Episode with the Barbary Pirates. The Marine officers sword is called the "Mameluke" because the Emir of Tripoli when captured by the Marines was so impressed with their fighting ability that he presented the Marine commander with the first "Mameluke" Sword. And it has been used ever since.
And then every person that likes history will know these battles: Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Inchon, and also Chon'jin resevior.
I may be biased but i think you will see that my nomination has merit.
Thanks Thorgrimm
Marine sniper team
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
good info 
Benderino
Loyal American Democrat
What about the Prussian army? They are in the top 5 at least.
schmiddi
Prussian
Depends on what time you consider.
The early napoleonic prussian army was one of the worst armies ever.
The early napoleonic prussian army was one of the worst armies ever.
Benderino
Loyal American Democrat
No the Prussian army of the 18th Century was the "most efficient" force on the continent, so much so that the Brits borrowed their "redcoat" idea from the Prussians, who were praised as the best.
MarineCorps
Explosion!
NO NO NO NO and for good measure, NO. The US Marines are 100 times better then the US army. In my opion and the opion of several army generals the army is whimpy compared to the Marines.
How in the world can the US army be beating the Marines in the polls. I highy doubt that the entire US army could move a divsion of Marines from were they didn't want to go.
dit: Just saw Thorgrimms post. I'm just back up now.
Riesstiu IV
Deity
US marines are better than the regular army? I can tell that you might me a little bias with a name like "MarineCorps" . 
MarineCorps
Explosion!
Little? I am very biased and so are my parents who were Marines themselves . But what I stated is very true
. But what I stated is very true
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
Reisstiu Please look at my previous post and those quotes were from other people not Marines (well one is) like i stated i believe you can tell about a fighting force by what the RIVALS and ENEMIES say about you please read the quote from Mao Tse-Tung, Winston Churchill and any of the others i have posted.
In case you do not understand here are a couple of more sayings.
"Why the hell can't the Army do it if the Marines can. Why can't the ARMY BE LIKE THE MARINES" John Pershing General US ARMY
" i have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." General Douglas MacArthur US ARMY
"The 1st Marine division is the most efficient and courageous combat unit i have ever seen or heard of." MG Frank E Lowe US ARMY.
"If i were king, i'd close Army entry training and send all future infantry to the Marines. The Corps still produces trained and disciplined soldiers who still know how to fight and make it on a killing field." Col. David Hackworth US ARMY
and one of my personal favorites.
"First the "********s" integrated Air Force basic training, then the Army went coed, while the Navy in an attempt to deflect the bad press from tailhook , surrendered in 1994. But the Corps stood tall and said "no way. Won't work." And now the Corps can say "I told you so." Col. David Hackworth US ARMY.
I could go on for a very long time. The point is these are not Marines saying these things about Marines, it's other nations and the US ARMY that you think is better than the Corps. The Army has numbers on the Corps, the Corps has quality, I will bet on quality thank you very much. also read my sig.
In case you do not understand here are a couple of more sayings.
"Why the hell can't the Army do it if the Marines can. Why can't the ARMY BE LIKE THE MARINES" John Pershing General US ARMY
" i have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." General Douglas MacArthur US ARMY
"The 1st Marine division is the most efficient and courageous combat unit i have ever seen or heard of." MG Frank E Lowe US ARMY.
"If i were king, i'd close Army entry training and send all future infantry to the Marines. The Corps still produces trained and disciplined soldiers who still know how to fight and make it on a killing field." Col. David Hackworth US ARMY
and one of my personal favorites.
"First the "********s" integrated Air Force basic training, then the Army went coed, while the Navy in an attempt to deflect the bad press from tailhook , surrendered in 1994. But the Corps stood tall and said "no way. Won't work." And now the Corps can say "I told you so." Col. David Hackworth US ARMY.
I could go on for a very long time. The point is these are not Marines saying these things about Marines, it's other nations and the US ARMY that you think is better than the Corps. The Army has numbers on the Corps, the Corps has quality, I will bet on quality thank you very much. also read my sig.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
actually, what I wrote up there as the uS army is more like the US armed forces, not a single branch but the whole thing, while the marine option votes for the marines alone.
Patroklos
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 12,721
Hello,
I think anyone from any branch from any country can find quotes to uphold there organization.
The Marines are good at what they do, but a full Army division would roll over a Marine Corps division, and the number one reason is tanks. Also, we would take marine Corps aircraft away because they use Navy carriers whenever in actual combat. That is another problem with saying the Marine Corps is more effective because they don't have to worry about certian things such as..
1) sustained combat, their job is to get a towhold and hold it. They are not designed to be able to operate in a prolonged fashion. Commanders sometimes try and use them this way as the branchs scramble for missions and of course it becomes nessessary in situations, but in a perfect world they never leave the beach.
2) No special forces. The Marines have Recon units that are very effective but not the same thing. The Marine Corps prides itself on "every man is an infantrymen" and thuse they never have developed a sperate special force. They actually just started one though, but it won't be ready for some time.
3) the Marine corps only has the most cusory supply and medical assets. They rely almost exclusively on the navy for such needs, which is the way the Marine Corps likes it so they can just worry about fighting. So logisitcs, which is the true sign of a professional army, is not gradable for them.
4) Transportation. Absolutely dependant, as the army is too, on US Navy transport. Even more so than the Army because the special needs of their theaters require specialized Navy vessels.
5) Air. Air components are great but focused primarily in the modern world on ground support. Does not have sufficient assets to provide airspace superiority and relies on Navy/Airforce for this function.
6) SMALL!!!. This is an asset as it allows for a streamlined and elite force, but there are only so many of you to go around. In a full scale war numbers do matter (Iraq is not full scale). The US Army can in theory field several CORPS, while the Marine Corps is by definition if not by intention only able to field a single one.
7) This is a subjective opinion of mine, but we have never seen a Marine Corps unit up against one of the other choices on this thread. When taking an island the Marines always had superior support and equipment. In WWII Maines fought on restricted battlefields where is was a simple slugfest without manuver, the manuever was on the part of the opposing Navies prior to landing. While the Marines suffered horribly on Pacific islands, the casualty ratios more than suggest that they were superior in every way to their enemy and always enjoyed superior air and artillery support. Vietnam was not conventional (and the casualties there lead to the same conclusion) and Iraq and Afgahnaistan are hardly examples of worthy opponents. WWI they fought the Germans but after they had been chewed up for years and were shadows of their former self. So ask yourself this. Put a WWII Marine Infantry division against a WWII German Panzer or even Panzergrenadier regiment with no side having an air or artillery majority and tell me who will win.
After all that I say the Marines are the, if not tied for, the greatest soldiers of all time. As far as entire armies using effeciency and effectivess goes, they are not really a contender, because of size and capabilities they should be considered an elite and specialized component of a branch (Navy), which they in fact are.
I would say as far as efficiecy and sheer power over the closest competitor the modern US Navy is the winner, we could probobly with a little atrition sink every navy in the world and still maintain acceptable capabilities, but you said armies.
-Pat
I think anyone from any branch from any country can find quotes to uphold there organization.
The Marines are good at what they do, but a full Army division would roll over a Marine Corps division, and the number one reason is tanks. Also, we would take marine Corps aircraft away because they use Navy carriers whenever in actual combat. That is another problem with saying the Marine Corps is more effective because they don't have to worry about certian things such as..
1) sustained combat, their job is to get a towhold and hold it. They are not designed to be able to operate in a prolonged fashion. Commanders sometimes try and use them this way as the branchs scramble for missions and of course it becomes nessessary in situations, but in a perfect world they never leave the beach.
2) No special forces. The Marines have Recon units that are very effective but not the same thing. The Marine Corps prides itself on "every man is an infantrymen" and thuse they never have developed a sperate special force. They actually just started one though, but it won't be ready for some time.
3) the Marine corps only has the most cusory supply and medical assets. They rely almost exclusively on the navy for such needs, which is the way the Marine Corps likes it so they can just worry about fighting. So logisitcs, which is the true sign of a professional army, is not gradable for them.
4) Transportation. Absolutely dependant, as the army is too, on US Navy transport. Even more so than the Army because the special needs of their theaters require specialized Navy vessels.
5) Air. Air components are great but focused primarily in the modern world on ground support. Does not have sufficient assets to provide airspace superiority and relies on Navy/Airforce for this function.
6) SMALL!!!. This is an asset as it allows for a streamlined and elite force, but there are only so many of you to go around. In a full scale war numbers do matter (Iraq is not full scale). The US Army can in theory field several CORPS, while the Marine Corps is by definition if not by intention only able to field a single one.
7) This is a subjective opinion of mine, but we have never seen a Marine Corps unit up against one of the other choices on this thread. When taking an island the Marines always had superior support and equipment. In WWII Maines fought on restricted battlefields where is was a simple slugfest without manuver, the manuever was on the part of the opposing Navies prior to landing. While the Marines suffered horribly on Pacific islands, the casualty ratios more than suggest that they were superior in every way to their enemy and always enjoyed superior air and artillery support. Vietnam was not conventional (and the casualties there lead to the same conclusion) and Iraq and Afgahnaistan are hardly examples of worthy opponents. WWI they fought the Germans but after they had been chewed up for years and were shadows of their former self. So ask yourself this. Put a WWII Marine Infantry division against a WWII German Panzer or even Panzergrenadier regiment with no side having an air or artillery majority and tell me who will win.
After all that I say the Marines are the, if not tied for, the greatest soldiers of all time. As far as entire armies using effeciency and effectivess goes, they are not really a contender, because of size and capabilities they should be considered an elite and specialized component of a branch (Navy), which they in fact are.
I would say as far as efficiecy and sheer power over the closest competitor the modern US Navy is the winner, we could probobly with a little atrition sink every navy in the world and still maintain acceptable capabilities, but you said armies.
-Pat
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
Pat have you ever heard of Chonjin resovoir where it was the ARMY units that broke and ran like little boys running for their mommas? How about the orders the communist forces gave their forces after Chonjin, DO NOT ATTACK THE 1ST MARINE DIVISION. LEAVE THE YELLOWLEGS ALONE. STRIKE THE AMERICAN ARMY. if you did not know the army got its butt spanked like a little boy. What about Mao Tse-Tungs strategy statement about fighting the Marines NOT the army; My strategy is one against ten, mty tactic is ten against one" and in case your army trained brain does not understand that statement it means when the Marines are on the offensive get the hell out of the way, and when they are on the offensive swarm the Marines with numbers. Oh you want something a little more recent, ok lets quote COL DAVID HACKWORTH AND OTHER ARMY PERSONNEL ON THE MARINES; "After the rangers disaster in Somalia- where there were no tanks to break through to relieve them- and after the embarrasment of not being able to fight in the war in Serbia, ARMY chief of staff Eric Shineski started forming light brigades strikingly similar to USMC units. When asked, "why the copycating?" he replied "it was either copy or go out of business" Col David Hackworth" Oh another?
"Marines know how to use their bayonets. Army bayonets might as well be paper weights" ARMY Times thats right the ARMY newspaper. incase you haven't figured out what it means is that the Marines know how to fight in ALL forms of warfare including close quarters, the Army does not know how to fight without a million dollars worth of equipment to support them. Oh by the way you know that ARMY maintenence unit that Jessica Lynch was in that got in that nasty fight, do you know why they got lost? because their GPS system broke down and the ARMY DID NOT TEACH THEIR OFFICERS HOW TO READ A MAP and they got lost. That is why the ARMY will never be any good in aposition of desperation because they do not teach their troops how to really fight only push buttons. I have trained with the "elite of the army" and except for the green berets and rangers they suck as warriors as they could not keep up with me on ops always whining about slowing down and stopping, like little boys crying for their mommas.
oh want some more proof;
We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and THREE ARMY REGIMENTS pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?" Gen John Vessey Jr., USA Chairman of the joint chiefs of staff during Grenada.
This quote sums up the difference between the Army and the Marines the Army ONLY has numbers and when presented with a problem that can't be solved by numbers they stop dead in their tracks and look silly. The Marines are taught to find ANY means to achieve their objectives. The Marines have a motto that the Army does not; When their is a problem you improvise, adapt and overcome to achieve the objective. In my 16 years in the Corps i ahve NEVER seen an army unit that could not be out manuvered and defeat a similar Marine unit, not once in 16 years, and i have trained with all types of army units from the Green Berets the the national guard. And all of the quote i have used were by Army personnel, do you wnat to know why the Army gets dissed by the whole world? It is because they know the Army has nimbers and nothing else, their training consists of getting in a "video game" and play war while the Marines train under REAL world conditions, ie in the field where we get all dirty and smelly while you can't get an army unit to play in the mud because they are afraid of getting dirty. Until the Army shows it can do something besides rely on numbers it will still be a giant whipping boy who does not know how to fight. Oh by the way try reading my entire posts as you will find them enlightening, as i let other services and our enemies do my talking for me. When the Army gets people talking about them in the same way then come talk to me about the Army division beating a Marine division, that is a real laugher .
Oh just for good measure here is another quote;
"If i were king, i'd close ARMY entry training and send all future infantry to the Marines. The Corps still produces trained and disciplined soldiers who still know how to fight and make it on a killing field." Col David Hackworth US Army one of Americas most highly decorated soldiers.
READ MY SIG
This one of the reasons other nations fear the Marines
"Marines know how to use their bayonets. Army bayonets might as well be paper weights" ARMY Times thats right the ARMY newspaper. incase you haven't figured out what it means is that the Marines know how to fight in ALL forms of warfare including close quarters, the Army does not know how to fight without a million dollars worth of equipment to support them. Oh by the way you know that ARMY maintenence unit that Jessica Lynch was in that got in that nasty fight, do you know why they got lost? because their GPS system broke down and the ARMY DID NOT TEACH THEIR OFFICERS HOW TO READ A MAP and they got lost. That is why the ARMY will never be any good in aposition of desperation because they do not teach their troops how to really fight only push buttons. I have trained with the "elite of the army" and except for the green berets and rangers they suck as warriors as they could not keep up with me on ops always whining about slowing down and stopping, like little boys crying for their mommas.
oh want some more proof;
We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and THREE ARMY REGIMENTS pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?" Gen John Vessey Jr., USA Chairman of the joint chiefs of staff during Grenada.
This quote sums up the difference between the Army and the Marines the Army ONLY has numbers and when presented with a problem that can't be solved by numbers they stop dead in their tracks and look silly. The Marines are taught to find ANY means to achieve their objectives. The Marines have a motto that the Army does not; When their is a problem you improvise, adapt and overcome to achieve the objective. In my 16 years in the Corps i ahve NEVER seen an army unit that could not be out manuvered and defeat a similar Marine unit, not once in 16 years, and i have trained with all types of army units from the Green Berets the the national guard. And all of the quote i have used were by Army personnel, do you wnat to know why the Army gets dissed by the whole world? It is because they know the Army has nimbers and nothing else, their training consists of getting in a "video game" and play war while the Marines train under REAL world conditions, ie in the field where we get all dirty and smelly while you can't get an army unit to play in the mud because they are afraid of getting dirty. Until the Army shows it can do something besides rely on numbers it will still be a giant whipping boy who does not know how to fight. Oh by the way try reading my entire posts as you will find them enlightening, as i let other services and our enemies do my talking for me. When the Army gets people talking about them in the same way then come talk to me about the Army division beating a Marine division, that is a real laugher
. Oh just for good measure here is another quote;
"If i were king, i'd close ARMY entry training and send all future infantry to the Marines. The Corps still produces trained and disciplined soldiers who still know how to fight and make it on a killing field." Col David Hackworth US Army one of Americas most highly decorated soldiers.
READ MY SIG
This one of the reasons other nations fear the Marines
Patroklos
Deity
- Joined
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- 12,721
Thorgrimm,
You should probobly calm down, it detracts from your arguement, and maybe use some of your own words? Quotes are not proof. You are obviously not a very good Marine if you blame the army problems in Somolia on anything but civilian intervention. You should be asshamed of yourself for disparaging your comrades in arms in such an underhanded way. I could of always brought up Beruit, but I don't got for cheap shots.
I stated the marines, man for man, are the best soldiers (with the exception of you), but we are talking about Army for Army, or is your case Army to Corps. You, in a pitched battle agains a US Army division, are hopelessly outclassed. It is a simple matter of loadout and mission. They will roll you over because hey have they have things that roll.
And your quotes all refer to Pacific Islands or Korea, which were addressed. Your quotes are on the purely tactical level, not stategic, which of course is the level we are talking about when comparing Army to Army. And I am sure the army ground pounders have there own worn out quotes (yes I have seen all of them at naseum and my best frend is currently at TBS, but he doesn't perpetuate the one bad sterotypes of mariens like yourself, unintelligent).
As far as Marince prestige world wide, you deserve it, but it is also because you are not used for the "crap" operations like occupation and the like because you are not capable of doing them. In other words the Army does alot of the hard work (like Iraq right now) while the Marines get alot of glory assignments.
So, before you start pulling the sarcasm out on a feindly, factual post which was actually rather faltering to your beloved Corps try reading it, understanding it, and rebuting it yourself point for point. At least be freindly. And learn to take a compliment.
-Pat
P.S. COL David Hackworth says alot of things, alot of them complimentary about the army. I am sure he would have a field day with your posts above. But no matter what he says about the Army or you, it would not be in the spirit of contempt and hate that you use bieng he is a professional soldier. An attitude adjustment is definetly need before you decide to trash the Corps rep in your arrogant fashion.
You should probobly calm down, it detracts from your arguement, and maybe use some of your own words? Quotes are not proof. You are obviously not a very good Marine if you blame the army problems in Somolia on anything but civilian intervention. You should be asshamed of yourself for disparaging your comrades in arms in such an underhanded way. I could of always brought up Beruit, but I don't got for cheap shots.
I stated the marines, man for man, are the best soldiers (with the exception of you), but we are talking about Army for Army, or is your case Army to Corps. You, in a pitched battle agains a US Army division, are hopelessly outclassed. It is a simple matter of loadout and mission. They will roll you over because hey have they have things that roll.
And your quotes all refer to Pacific Islands or Korea, which were addressed. Your quotes are on the purely tactical level, not stategic, which of course is the level we are talking about when comparing Army to Army. And I am sure the army ground pounders have there own worn out quotes (yes I have seen all of them at naseum and my best frend is currently at TBS, but he doesn't perpetuate the one bad sterotypes of mariens like yourself, unintelligent).
As far as Marince prestige world wide, you deserve it, but it is also because you are not used for the "crap" operations like occupation and the like because you are not capable of doing them. In other words the Army does alot of the hard work (like Iraq right now) while the Marines get alot of glory assignments.
So, before you start pulling the sarcasm out on a feindly, factual post which was actually rather faltering to your beloved Corps try reading it, understanding it, and rebuting it yourself point for point. At least be freindly. And learn to take a compliment.
-Pat
P.S. COL David Hackworth says alot of things, alot of them complimentary about the army. I am sure he would have a field day with your posts above. But no matter what he says about the Army or you, it would not be in the spirit of contempt and hate that you use bieng he is a professional soldier. An attitude adjustment is definetly need before you decide to trash the Corps rep in your arrogant fashion.
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
I was never angry i was just using Army Marine banter, evidently you have never bantered with a Marine!Pat i NEVER SAID anything about Somalia Hackworth did and the quotes by him were stated after Clinton and the Army turned Army training into boy scout camp training and his embarrasment about the current level of Army TRAINING. Chonjin is Chosin in Korea and the 1st Marine division was surrounded by seven Chinese divisions and in the process of the battle they destroyed six of those divisions, that is the reason for the orders. As for Somalia the reason those soldiers died is because of Army TRAINING.That is the point i was trying to get to is the way the Army and Marines train their forces. The army trains their soldiers to push buttons not fight, that is also why the maint. unit got lost in Iraq is because of Army training. I have seen 1 Marine armored bn defeat 3 Army tank bns. i have seen Marine units outnumbered 3 to 1 and still handily defeat the Army units they were engaged with. As for Beirut lets bring it up as i WAS THERE and recieved one of my purple hearts there, the reason that the bombers got through was because the Marines were NOT ALLOWED to carry ammunition. And you know weapons without ammo are just clubs.
And it was the ARMY chief of staff who gave those wonderful orders, even though the Commandant of the Corps told them something like what happened would happen, But Washington insulated from the real world decided to ignore his opinion, with the unfortunet results. I am sorry if the truth hurts your feelings because the only way we are going to improve the Army capability of fighting in ALL conditions is to point out the deficiencies of its worthless trianing of fine Americans who might die BECAUSE OF STUPID ARMY TRAINING.
As for my ablilities as a Marine lets just hope you never have to find out how very good i really was, as your comment will produce a fire that will grow if continue to comment on something you have no idea about. Let me ask you how many citations and meritorius promotions have you had in the Army? I have 4 citations for performance of my duties and 3 meritorius promotions including to Gunnery Sergeant. So please just use Army Marine banter and do not make personal insults or you will get a flamewar.
And it was the ARMY chief of staff who gave those wonderful orders, even though the Commandant of the Corps told them something like what happened would happen, But Washington insulated from the real world decided to ignore his opinion, with the unfortunet results. I am sorry if the truth hurts your feelings because the only way we are going to improve the Army capability of fighting in ALL conditions is to point out the deficiencies of its worthless trianing of fine Americans who might die BECAUSE OF STUPID ARMY TRAINING.
As for my ablilities as a Marine lets just hope you never have to find out how very good i really was, as your comment will produce a fire that will grow if continue to comment on something you have no idea about. Let me ask you how many citations and meritorius promotions have you had in the Army? I have 4 citations for performance of my duties and 3 meritorius promotions including to Gunnery Sergeant. So please just use Army Marine banter and do not make personal insults or you will get a flamewar.
Patroklos
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 12,721
Thorigrimm
I thought you sounded pretty sarcastic in your fist rebutal, and I never said I was in the army. I have better sense than to crawl around in the mud all day when I can and do kill many more of the enemy from off shore. No need to quote whatever colored pieces of ribbon I where on my chest, as all the points made in my first post have little to do with fatual knowlegde gained in the service, they are common and some from marines themselves (If I have to hear another of you claim you don't get enough funding because you are too SMALL....). So, while we have established in your opinion that the Army is worse than the Marines, the thread is about best army ever.
I do agree with most of what you said about the Army, except the results if you were to meet them in open convential combat. However I voted for the German Panzers (should have just been WWII Heer or Waffen SS). I will maintain until I die that the 1st SS Panzer "Liebstandarte" would clean the floor with any US Army or Marine unit of the period in a Division on Division fight, as they proved several times with the former. For the record, I don't consider losing hundreds of Shermans until the Germans literally ran out of ammunition a victory, especiually not one worthy of being considered the best.
-Pat
I don't worry about fighting marines, the Navy consistantly wins in bar fights primarily because we hold our liquor better
I thought you sounded pretty sarcastic in your fist rebutal, and I never said I was in the army. I have better sense than to crawl around in the mud all day when I can and do kill many more of the enemy from off shore. No need to quote whatever colored pieces of ribbon I where on my chest, as all the points made in my first post have little to do with fatual knowlegde gained in the service, they are common and some from marines themselves (If I have to hear another of you claim you don't get enough funding because you are too SMALL....). So, while we have established in your opinion that the Army is worse than the Marines, the thread is about best army ever.
I do agree with most of what you said about the Army, except the results if you were to meet them in open convential combat. However I voted for the German Panzers (should have just been WWII Heer or Waffen SS). I will maintain until I die that the 1st SS Panzer "Liebstandarte" would clean the floor with any US Army or Marine unit of the period in a Division on Division fight, as they proved several times with the former. For the record, I don't consider losing hundreds of Shermans until the Germans literally ran out of ammunition a victory, especiually not one worthy of being considered the best.
-Pat
I don't worry about fighting marines, the Navy consistantly wins in bar fights primarily because we hold our liquor better
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
Boy you should have been in the Yokuska navy base nco club when 5 Marines cleaned the floor with the swabbiesIt would be an intresting fight as Marines are trained to take out armor from our fighting holes with grenades and i will take the Marine infantry over the German infantry of the SS any day, as the Marines proved again and again in combat with fanatics in the Pacific. and i am saying that as a son of a Panzermanner im swei Weltkrieg
Cheers Thorgrimm
It would be an intresting fight as Marines are trained to take out armor from our fighting holes with grenades and i will take the Marine infantry over the German infantry of the SS any day, as the Marines proved again and again in combat with fanatics in the Pacific. and i am saying that as a son of a Panzermanner im swei Weltkrieg Cheers Thorgrimm
MarineCorps
Explosion!
Better grenades then LAW's. (inside joke for anyone who knows the early history of LAW's)
(inside joke for anyone who knows the early history of LAW's)
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2003
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I would think the fighting around the pacific Islands differs somewhat from that In Northern Europe. YES the Marine Corps were good, but at that stage they were also very specialised and you can bet your bottom dollar that in a straight out and out fight the Marines would have one hell of a job ejecting the likes of LAS from a town or city in europe, just as LAS would be slaughtered trying to fight in the pacific theatre against the American forces there.
The comparison of fanatics doesn't hold so true either. LAS and other combat units of the SS were not quite as fanatical as their Japanese counterparts, this is more myth than reality. Their tendency for higher casualty rates mostly comes from the commanders of their corps/armies throwing them into the hottest part of the front and handing them the worst possible jobs, hence their higher rates, but more often than not they got said job done. They weren't all maniacs though, many of the SS formations were well trained, well lead, well oiled divisions who knew full well the best tactics of their time and operated under them. They had no more tendency towards fighting to the last man than any other elite formation with the exception of the end of the war naturally when many had nothing to loose.
As for marines KO'ing the tanks, well again this depends on the situation and formations involved, firstly the SS were not the morons depicted in Saving Private Ryan. Units like Hohestaufen and Frundesburg more than proved their capability for street fighting, and destroying dug in formations, you only have to look at the Arhem campaign for that, when they had barely 1/3 of their forces and 1/10th of their armour to begin with and were suprised by two of the highest quality formations the Allies had in the entire Theatre. Hohestaufen reacted well and cut the threat off before they proved their mettle, gradually forcing the Paras out using well tried tactics. Also assuming it was a relatively intact SS formation they would have excellent supporting arms such as heavy artillery and well mechanised infantry, giving them the edge in both manouverability and firepower on the ground.
The marines on the other hand would have little or no experience of fighting that type of formation, and especially little experience of engaging a heavily mechanised formation such as LAS or the like. This wasn't what they were trained, equipped or designed for, and frankly I would suggest that unless they could adapt mid battle they would simply be mauled by a fast moving, hard hitting bunch of combat vetrans who'd already cut their teeth years before fighting elite formations and beating the living daylights out of them all too frequently. Not that this makes the Corps non-elite, they were, BUT they were then and by and large are now specifically for certain types of mission as previously stated, and fighting elite Panzer divisions on a theatre they had no experience of simply wasn't it. A hard fight it would be, but I would be confident that the vetrans of the SS would come out on top in the end
Ultimately the SS were used to engaging elite formations similar to the marines and more often than not trouncing them. The Marines never had the chance to experience what engaging such a formation would be like, and whilst they would do well, their inexperience would hamstring their battle. (I don't buy for a moment a comparison between the Japanese army and the Waffen SS)
Which btw is the point on efficiency, ie the corps are arguably the finest formation for their numbers anywhere in the world, then or now, but they are not the be all and end all of the US military. I tend to prefer to look at the entire military (or in this case the army of a nation) and determine their worth from this overall picture. The Corps to a degree needs the army for the more mundane roles as mentioned. Also not all people in armies can meet the standard set by certain elite formations within it, that is why marines, SAS, paras and such like exist. Simply saying all should conform to the standard made by those formations won't work, because by and large the bulk of an army never can and never will match such a standard, it's simply not possible.
I have immense respect for the Marine corps, but when considering the most efficent army, they don't get their own mention. No more than the Waffen SS can be seperated from the Wermacht, or the Panzer formations from the infantry, or the commandos from the British army, the Marine Corps are for me considered as part of the ability of the overall US army. They're an elite branch of a decently efficient army, but alone they simply won't be enough and should not be considered seperately.
Because concentrating on a specific part of any nations army it's possible to show how such a formation was specifically as good or even better than the marines in their time as long as you're selective enough....
The comparison of fanatics doesn't hold so true either. LAS and other combat units of the SS were not quite as fanatical as their Japanese counterparts, this is more myth than reality. Their tendency for higher casualty rates mostly comes from the commanders of their corps/armies throwing them into the hottest part of the front and handing them the worst possible jobs, hence their higher rates, but more often than not they got said job done. They weren't all maniacs though, many of the SS formations were well trained, well lead, well oiled divisions who knew full well the best tactics of their time and operated under them. They had no more tendency towards fighting to the last man than any other elite formation with the exception of the end of the war naturally when many had nothing to loose.
As for marines KO'ing the tanks, well again this depends on the situation and formations involved, firstly the SS were not the morons depicted in Saving Private Ryan. Units like Hohestaufen and Frundesburg more than proved their capability for street fighting, and destroying dug in formations, you only have to look at the Arhem campaign for that, when they had barely 1/3 of their forces and 1/10th of their armour to begin with and were suprised by two of the highest quality formations the Allies had in the entire Theatre. Hohestaufen reacted well and cut the threat off before they proved their mettle, gradually forcing the Paras out using well tried tactics. Also assuming it was a relatively intact SS formation they would have excellent supporting arms such as heavy artillery and well mechanised infantry, giving them the edge in both manouverability and firepower on the ground.
The marines on the other hand would have little or no experience of fighting that type of formation, and especially little experience of engaging a heavily mechanised formation such as LAS or the like. This wasn't what they were trained, equipped or designed for, and frankly I would suggest that unless they could adapt mid battle they would simply be mauled by a fast moving, hard hitting bunch of combat vetrans who'd already cut their teeth years before fighting elite formations and beating the living daylights out of them all too frequently. Not that this makes the Corps non-elite, they were, BUT they were then and by and large are now specifically for certain types of mission as previously stated, and fighting elite Panzer divisions on a theatre they had no experience of simply wasn't it. A hard fight it would be, but I would be confident that the vetrans of the SS would come out on top in the end
Ultimately the SS were used to engaging elite formations similar to the marines and more often than not trouncing them. The Marines never had the chance to experience what engaging such a formation would be like, and whilst they would do well, their inexperience would hamstring their battle. (I don't buy for a moment a comparison between the Japanese army and the Waffen SS)
Which btw is the point on efficiency, ie the corps are arguably the finest formation for their numbers anywhere in the world, then or now, but they are not the be all and end all of the US military. I tend to prefer to look at the entire military (or in this case the army of a nation) and determine their worth from this overall picture. The Corps to a degree needs the army for the more mundane roles as mentioned. Also not all people in armies can meet the standard set by certain elite formations within it, that is why marines, SAS, paras and such like exist. Simply saying all should conform to the standard made by those formations won't work, because by and large the bulk of an army never can and never will match such a standard, it's simply not possible.
I have immense respect for the Marine corps, but when considering the most efficent army, they don't get their own mention. No more than the Waffen SS can be seperated from the Wermacht, or the Panzer formations from the infantry, or the commandos from the British army, the Marine Corps are for me considered as part of the ability of the overall US army. They're an elite branch of a decently efficient army, but alone they simply won't be enough and should not be considered seperately.
Because concentrating on a specific part of any nations army it's possible to show how such a formation was specifically as good or even better than the marines in their time as long as you're selective enough....
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
@ privatehudson you are correct that there is no comparison between thw Japanese and the SS. And the one thing the Marines are taught from day one is to adapt to the battlefield and use whatever means is nessasary to achieve the objective, and as too support in WW2 the Marine air ground team excelled at cooperation and each Marine Division Consisted of an artillery regiment, 3 marine infantry regiments an engineer bn and an armored bn consisting of at least 62 tanksthe entire Divisional strength was about 21,000 men. As for support the fore mentioned air ground team consisted of fo's that were pilots so were very adept at planting airpower where it was needed. And if on the coast not even 3 Panzer divisions could dig out a Marine division. Look at the Marine performance each time the enemy underestimated the Marines, as we are the masters of adaptability, as we were taught by the best before the revolutionary war, the Royal Marines.
Cheers Thorgrimm
Cheers Thorgrimm
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