Most Efficient Army

The Most Efficient Army is...

  • Alexander's Hoplites

    Votes: 4 3.3%
  • Rome's Legions

    Votes: 32 26.7%
  • Attila's Huns

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Byzantium's Cataphracts

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Arabia's Mameluks

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mongol Horde

    Votes: 20 16.7%
  • Spain's Conquistadors

    Votes: 3 2.5%
  • French Knights

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ottoman Jannisaries

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Nobunaga's Musketeers

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • British Regulars

    Votes: 10 8.3%
  • Napoleon's Grande Armee

    Votes: 5 4.2%
  • BEF in 1914

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Germany's Panzers

    Votes: 15 12.5%
  • US Marines

    Votes: 9 7.5%
  • Today's US Army

    Votes: 14 11.7%
  • Other (Specify)

    Votes: 5 4.2%

  • Total voters
    120
Thorigrimm,

You very well may be right, but since the Marines have never actually faced an force of equal size, trianing, equipment, and experiance we will never know. Of course that is the point, the Marines are not supposed to fight such units, just punch them in the nose and then let the rest of the milirary wrestle them to the ground. I would say the best formations the Marines ever faced were the early North Korean forces at the beginning of that war, and no one is going to say the NK forces were a worthy match to a Marine division.

As to the Armoured battalion the 62 Shermans or Stuarts you would pit against the German Panzer IV V and VI would do more good left behind, and you artillery was of small calibre to facilitate landing them. You had naval gunfire for serious artillery support. German close air support was just as effective if not more so than the Marine Corps equivalent, they did after all invent it. Not too many Corair pilots with 200+ tank kills, the Germans have dozens. But objectively, I would leave all air support out because we are talking about a ground engagement between respective divisions, not their attached air assets.

In all reality you are not going to see a Marine commander put a Marine division in a position where it could forseeably fight a full armored division without massive outside support (like Desert Storm). Just like the Army isn't going to land an airborne division (which equals light infantry) in the way of an armored formation, as the British found at at Arnhem. Marines in WWII had no idea how to fight against an armored push because it didn't concern them, but I gurantee a Panzer unit knew all about slaughtering infantry assaults, and every Russian Motor Guard Divison had just as much combat and adaptability as a Pacific Marine unit at the end of the war.

So you could say we are comparing apples and oranges, and I wouldn't suggesst the comparison outside this thread. I can understand Marine Corps institutional pride, it is part of what makes them so good at what they do, but remember that. They are good at what they do, not what they aren't. Their are simply too many capabilities that the Marine Corps does not have to worry about and thus are not good at. The army is the Jack of all trades, master of none. The Marine Corps is the Master of one (light amphibuious infantry), and doesn't care about the rest.

-Pat
 
And the one thing the Marines are taught from day one is to adapt to the battlefield and use whatever means is nessasary to achieve the objective

Unfortunately the point against this is with the tactics practised by the Germans during WWII a fully operational SS division would decimate any force during the time it took for said force to adapt to the battlefield conditions imposed on them. EG on the anti-tank issue, whilst bazookas could KO a Japanese tank, they'd barely scratch the paintwork on the Panther from the front. Assuming you then have to get close and behind most german tanks, you then have to assume the Marines could defeat the SS infantry who were more than competent at keeping in touch with their armour and keeping enemy infantry away from the tanks, especially when motorised or mechanised.

Also on the mechanised issue, the SS formations would find it easier to exploit any sucesses than the Japanese may have. The essence of Blitzkrieg never died out in the German armed forces, any faltering in the line would have been quickly and efficiently extended until their superior movement ability would be telling. This would also extend to their ability to hold off localised or more general counter-attacks whereby they would find it easier to shuffle units around to counter new threats.

and as too support in WW2 the Marine air ground team excelled at cooperation and each Marine Division Consisted of an artillery regiment, 3 marine infantry regiments an engineer bn and an armored bn consisting of at least 62 tanksthe entire Divisional strength was about 21,000 men.

Numbers wise about the same as LAS during some parts of the war then :) Can't remember exact compositions of SS panzer divisions atm, but I assume they had at least 2 battalions of medium tanks (as per standard 1944 panzer division), ie one Panther and one Panzer IV battalion, each I'd guess at about 40 odd tanks, so between them more than the marines. Beyond that, tank for tank the Panther would simply wipe the floor with the marine armour, until 1945 with the pershing the americans pretty much didn't build a single tank that could match a panther, and some reports on the pershing I've read don't always have it come out on top in battle against panthers either... The panzer IV was easily the equal of the Sherman also.

Or take the Tiger battalions often attached to the SS formations, one of these would be lethal against marine armour. To put it into perspective, one of the better british formations once had an entire attack halted in Normandy when just 4 tigers turned up and shot up a column of tanks and mechanised infantry, Wittman who lead the attack did so alone, leaving 3 tanks in reserve before destroying 30+ vehicles and halting an entire offensive in less than an hour :D Now this was rare as the conditions were unusual and Witman was a leading tank ace, but it gives the impression of the kind of situation marine armour would face. And IMO the tiger, which wasn't always part of SS divisions was an inferior tank to the panther, which was....

On the air formations, point taken, BUT you would be reliant also on supporting USAAF planes to ensure dominance of the skies, and the germans did produce a wide variety of measures to combat this, that said pretty much a major way of stopping German armour was the use of airpower, but reliance on it as would almost certainly be necessary in such a battle is fatal as it is too reliant on other matters such as weather. One day without aircover could be all the SS would need.

Oh and when I said artillery this would often me mechanised or motorised, giving the SS formation a more flexible firing base. Not sure about regular artillery, I would assume at least the same number was standard.

As for support the fore mentioned air ground team consisted of fo's that were pilots so were very adept at planting airpower where it was needed

As where any of the other allied formations operating in NW europe through most of the war. Things only tended to go awry when they tried to use ridicuously heavy bombers who couldn't really tell half the time their targets apart from their allies, or the air force and army argued about how to use air power.

And if on the coast not even 3 Panzer divisions could dig out a Marine division

Since you don't have any evidence of the two meeting any such conclusion is entirely subjective and I would suggest you are a little biased my friend ;) As I have pointed out, on all arms the marines would either be outmatched or reliant on the other parts of the US military to ensure they had any type of sucess. Many of the advantages of the SS formation not even adaptability could cover such as the vastly superior armour, the faster formations, the combined arms tactics and so on. It would be likely to me that 3 tank divisions (with some 100 tanks, many of which would be panthers alone possibly) would easily eject such marines as had landed. As it was the US forces had a hard enough time on D-day and the British/Canadians were endangered soon after by Armour on a lesser scale.

Which is why 3 or even 1 would be a hard fight if not impossible. The marines can adapt sure, but they're not invincible, nor can they adapt quickly enough to a battle they had absolutely zip experience of. Slugging it out with Japanese armour and then fighting panthers and tigers would be fatal. The marines did well in WWII because they trained specifically to fight in the pacific, they were specifically designed to fight Japanese troops on the beach. They were not designed for europe, nor would they have done much other than die hard there in normandy. I have no doubt the marine formations could have been rebuilt, re-equipped and re-trained to fight in europe and they would have done damn well, but as they existed in WWII they would have been slaughtered. That's why it's no slur on them to suggest they would have lost to the SS formations, they just were'nt meant to do that role, and throwing them into such a thing "at the deep end" would have been suicide.
 
I agree on the tanks but as for infantry i am sure that the Marine infantry could outfight any other infantryman of the second world war. The artillery batteries were 105's to air support the Marines had a full air wing on call for every division in the to&e and the SS would need more than 1 day i can guarantee you that, as i have personaly taken out in training conditions M1s and British challengers and the WW2 version of the Marines were even better at taking out fortifications and other impediments.:) .

To sum up on armor i agree the germans had the edge.
on infantry the marines have fought in tougher battles than the SS and remember i have listened to first hand descriptions of the SS "capabilities." and he did not rate them as good as allied soldiers did.
Artillery i would rate as even but the Marines probably had more tubes.
Air support i would rate a full air wing of Marines in F4Us VS a german wing of 190s and 109s as the better pilots because the of the aircraft capabilities as weapons loadouts and fighting abilities. The only allied plane better than the F4U was the P-51 and we see how the Luftwaffe fared against that when they decided to dogfight.

Hell remember that only one army regt in "the fortified goose egg held up the ENTIRE 6th SS panzer army long enough that that bastard Skorzeny ordered the Malmedy massacre because they were so far behind schedule.

My father who fought beside the SS said they were "Piss poor soldiers" always wanting to run at the enemy and not use proper tactics. And the casualty lists from the war bear that statement out, the SS were not better soldiers, just were more willing to die for their Fuherer more than the normal german soldier. I will believe my father over any statement you care to bring as he actually saw them fight.:D Oh by the way besides Arhnem where the allies pissed away a chance to get across the Rhine, please tell me of the Vaunted SS's victories over the allies. I have more respect for the average German soldier than the ss as the ss were not soldiers but mass murderer's in uniform and they acted like it.

Cheers thorgrimm
 
Hey,

I am sure you are aware of the Russian casualties, the 11th SS Division Nordland along with what amounted to a understregth Corps of the Wermacht stopped FOUR ARMIES of the Soviet Union at the Oder and Seelow hieghts. That is 1.5 million soldiers that besides the laymens bias were not as bad soldiers as most think at that point. I would remind you that before the 6th SS Panzer army (which wasn't really that big) got to Bastogne they destroyed around 20 other Allied divisions!

As far as Corsairs go, despite bieng a decent aircraft their numbers are misleading. Their best opponent was after all a 1937 airframe that, by the time of the Corsair's introductions, were being flown by very undertrained pilots. The top scoring Marine Corps ace of the war was Joseph Foss with 26 air victories. Off the top of my head Gunter Rawl of the Germans had 226! Marine pilots were outclassed, even by their Allied counterparts. And since your attached air wing was normally totally dependant of the navy to launch from in all fairness I would leave the air components of each out. Remember also the Corsair was rejected byt he Navy and passed down to the Marines for flaws.

As far as artillery, you are right, 105s are all the Marines had. the standard order of Batttle for an SS mid war division consisted of 105mm, 150mm, 175mm, and in some cases 210mm rockets!.

Manuever definetly goes to the SS, primarily because they were mechanized. Maines never had to worry about anything but at most a few square miles of an isolated island. There was not signifigant stategic manuever in the Pacific (it was done by the opposing navies ahead of time). In Europe single divisions had to contend with fronts dozens of miles wide and in depth, some encircling manuevers went for hundreds of kilometers. Plus, Marines never had to deal with cooridnating thier efforts with anything more than, at most, another marine division.

I will respect your source, as he went through more than you or I, but I can produce more accounts to the opposite and you seem to put alot of weight on quotes.

Anyways, we will probobly have to just agree to disagree on this one.

-Pat
 
Pat what was the highest scoring ace against the WESTERN allies? even Erich Hartmann do i have the right name, i may be wrong only scored 13 victories against the western allies. and since you brought up mid to late war abilities by that time ALL American pilots had better overall qualities than the Luftwaffe because of pilot rotation the Luftwaffe had a few very good aces and the rest were under trained bullet fodder. So the Marine pilots in the F4U would make mince meat of the Luftwaffe Support and then Proceed to blow the piss out of your precious armor. The Marine air ground team of the mid to late war had the fastest time of call to time on target of any military in the war, that is why the army troops would complain about their lack of air support compared to the Marines. And as to your statement about the Marines not being able to fight in Europeean style battlefield they fought in some of the toughest fights the western allies fought in. And your only victory of the ss was against who/ The Soviets, lets mention just a few more, ever hear of Kursk soviets lost more tanks but won the battle, how about Budapest? Oh and completely sidestep the bulge where your vaunted ss got the **** kicked out of it by the western allies. On the whole the ss lost more divisional sized fights against the western allies than they won. So you have been misled by a glitzy uniform. So you still have not shown that the ss have beaten a WESTERN allied Division much less a mid to late war Marine one.

Cheers Thorgrimm
 
Thorgrimm,

You are hopelessly lost in your Marine brainwashing, which isn't a bad thing, but you are simply wrong (see posts above, not going to repeat myself).

-Pat
 
You’re generalising and assuming that what one person’s account is will actually be the truth. Like Pat I respect your father’s opinion, but with respect it’s simply biased and quite possibly wrong. You say you respect the opinions of those that saw the SS fight, and yet only accept the opinions of a single person who saw them fight. I’m going to suggest to you that this is a far too narrow a sample on which to form a proper opinion, you would do much better to read some books on the formations involved, from which I would recommend some histories of the formations also.

Because if you truly respect the opinions of those that fought alongside the SS units you should also read other people’s accounts rather than just your fathers. Placing reliance for your opinion on one person’s account might give you an excellent series of anecdotes, but it leaves your opinion open to bias and also lack of overall understanding. Unless your father happened to be a Wermacht general or similar it’s unlikely his opinion of the SS would be based on anything more than a surface level and be incapable of understanding the larger picture. It would be akin to taking a GI’s opinion of the British army “slow, arrogant, tradition bound etc” and assuming this was accurate. If as you claim you support the notion of opinions and quotations more than anything else, you would do well to do more in depth and wide ranging research also from other opinions.

On the 6th SS, yes they were held, but this was an extreme situation you might remember. I don’t recall the US marines having to fight in snow covered fields with supply roads blocked by snow and moving over wooded mountains in such conditions. The 6th SS were also hampered by lack of supplies (more than normal, not more than they needed) and other issues. Assuming this is the norm of SS fighting is little short of close-minded my friend. Also as I have mentioned, the SS had a tendency for the opposite also, wittman being a small sample, so their rating as “piss poor” is not even close to the entire story.

Your comment on battles: Arnhem was more than simply an allied cock up. The Germans reacted fast and well (9th SS had been trained specifically in anti-airborne actions a year before) and operate as individual minute formations, blocking the enemy often without orders or need for them. The junior officers knew their roles and performed brilliantly in them against an elite fighting formation without higher co-ordination for much of the first day. This smacks more of adaptability and initiative than “piss-poor” troops who could only win when the British screwed up, yes the allies messed up the campaign, but the Germans played a more than active role in the defeat.

Away from Arnhem, your definition of a battle is important, as the SS scored many an individual victory against their opposition only for other formations to be crushed around them, hence in terms of campaigns their number of victories were small, in battles their victory numbers were high. Again I cite Villiers Bocage (wittman) as an example, or Kharkov with the SS panzer Korps during which they destroyed over 600 Russian tanks, probably over twice their own number had they all been even at full strength (which they were not). Or the capture of Belgrade, a capital city by a handful of SS recon troops in 1941.

On your father’s Impression: I’m going to say this with the best of intentions my friend, your father is either biased as most Wermacht formations were about the SS, or simply not in combat with the right formations alongside him. The wermacht overall despised the SS formations they fought with, but the senior officers also respected them. This is why the proper SS divisions were in the forefront of many a major offensive such as Kursk and the Bulge. They weren’t there to “soak up losses” they were there because they were an elite combat formation with some of the best equipment and training anywhere in the entire Reich. In my experience the only formations that could even come close to matching their performance regularly was the likes of the Army’s Gross Deustchland, Charlemegne and Panzer Lehr, or the Falschirmjaeger and Hermann Goering Divisions of the Luftwaffe. To accurately define the quality of the SS divisions you really have to divide them into three main types of formation:

SS Panzer Division (7 in all): These were the type I refer to, and believe you me, they wiped the floor with opposition on similar numbers to them more often than not. They were almost always highly mechanised, well equipped with heavy armour and had some of the finest commanders in the entire Reich to lead them. Their record speaks highly on diverse fronts of battle and diverse enemies. Yes they committed war crimes (more on this later), but were a fine fighting formation.

SS Non-Panzer Division (1st class) These included a variety of formations, many of whom were Foreign, but had a semi-decent fighting record such as Polezei (4th) and Wallonien. They lacked the mechanised ability, panzers and elite status of the Panzer formations more often than not, but did fight well under such conditions

SS Non-Panzer (2nd Class) These are the troops who more match your father is more accurate about, the formations formed almost entirely for anti-partisan duties. They weren’t formed to fight trained armies, and when they did they got their butts kicked from here to next week all too often. Some included those such formation as under Dirwelanger and others. These are the cold hearted mass murderers and little more you mention. These are the formations who committed war crimes probably month in month out in their histories. These are the formations that slaughtered Poles in Warsaw and a fair few did have combat histories consisting of one bloody quelling of resistance after another. Comparing these “piss poor” (because on the front line they were) formations with the more elite units such as the 7 panzer formations is impossible, they barely count as divisions half the time, and when they do they weren’t even in the same league as the 7 elite heading up the list.

So I recommend to you that you do yourself a favour and widen your source material, I didn’t rely on my grandfather’s comments for the abilities of the American army because it would be narrow and ill formed, my grandfather’s were brave men, they were not military analysts capable of judging such a situation, unless you care to suggest otherwise, assuming your father knows better than the overall majority of authors on such formations is totally close minded just to prove your point.

On the Airforce: You need to do more research, German ground support had moved on somewhat from 1941-43. Their Henschel 129 was one of the finest of the war and the upgraded Stuka (when protected I admit) would do reasonably well also. Your comment on time on target is interesting, but probably wasn’t quite as accurate as often the allies (well at least the British ones) in NW Europe employed a kind of “taxi rank” of typhoons over vital engagements. European battles were constant and drawn out over months, providing constant air-cover during nearly 12 continuous months is a little different from providing said cover for a short time at any one point.

On the airpower overall, well actually no, you assume and simplify to far again. The SS formations contained more than their fare share of both heavy (88mm) and light (20mm) AA guns more than suited to the role of denying your air force their freedom of movement. Average composition tended to be 10 heavy and 20 light. Also some mechanised AA could be expected, quad 20 mm and single 37mm guns on tanks and what not. I grant you the 88s were all too often adopted for A/T roles, but this would wreak havoc on any Sherman/Stuart force. I’d go as far to suggest that those 10 heavy flak guns, supported by dug in infantry would make mincemeat of your armour, all too frequently it did anyway.

Your comment on Western/Eastern Front/Far East shows your inability to grasp the quality of Russian formations or the nature of the engagements. As for “toughest battles” since the marines never had the mispleasure of engaging armoured units or even anything like such warfare, the ability to define whether it was a difficult engagement or not is limited.

Yes lets look at Kursk, the SS formations backed by the army faced off against vastly superior numbers in tanks and ridiculously more guns than they could ever hope to cope with. The tanks were either unsuited to sweeping offensives (tiger) or experimental and too prone to engine problems, again screwing with their ability to attack (panther). You’re right, the Russians lost more tanks, it’s not hard to work out after all, they HAD more tanks for one, and secondly could afford to loose more tanks to gain their victories.

Which is where your point looses out, you like quotes, well here’s one my own grandfather told me about the cold facts of armoured war against the germans, namely “For every panther you meet you have to take 4 or 5 shermans. You’ll loose 3-4 of them killing it.” And that IS borne out by facts also. No major engagement I know of in 1944 saw German tank losses equal allied ones, west or east front. Had that ever happened the war could have been over reasonably quickly given the rate of loss in allied formations. You talk of the Kursk battle as if this should denote the inability of the Russians in combat, I’m telling you this was the norm for all allies, so simply dismissing victories against Russian formations is close minded and selective to prove a point.

Budapest: It was suicide, no fuel, formations had been shot to hell anyway and were asked to relieve a position in the middle of winter-spring without a decent way of moving to the front (ie rail) that was protected by infinitely more powerful Enemy formations just on the orders of a maniac. Not an entirely good sample whatsoever.

Bulge: Reasons outlined above. Additional thoughts would be that I don’t recall the allied formations in the west doing especially well either. This was an almost pointless attack anyway, any result would have been negligible. You also quite neglect to notice the fact that the SS formations DID inflict losses on a high scale in the early days of the battle.

On the Russians: Well thank you for demeaning our then allies so efficiently, but your attitude to them is blinkered also. Lets look at Russian armour shall we? Firstly you have the T34, in it’s original form superior to any German tank then in service in 1941, and most western tanks until a year later with the Sherman. The catalyst behind the Panther. Or in it’s second guise, the 85mm role the tank offered one of the best of it’s time (early 44) in the allied armies, look at it’s comparison forces, the American/British army were STILL using Shermans, the Ronson. Compare their upgraded versions, the 76mm Sherman was quite inferior in armament and armour to the T34/85, the firefly was superior in arnament, but inferior in armour. Then moving on the next big thing in Western Allied armour, the Pershing, well it was about as good as a Josef Stalin, but over a year later than the original JS. That’s without beginning to mention the KV tanks that came before such armour.

So your derision of the SS capacity for defeating what was an entirely capable enemy that always outnumbered them (well that’s the same as on the western front) only with better tanks is rather pointless. Yes most of their infantry were markedly inferior in training, as where some of their crews, but they had superior aspects in their formations also, the armour and so on. Some Russian formations also were easily the match of their western Equiivalent.

On the Division sized battles:

Ok firstly German formations rarely either had their full complement for their divisions in the west, or when they did their battles were in poorly planned/supplied and fought under poor conditions such as the Bulge. When under strength the Division tended towards Ad-hoc (ie improvisation?) kampfgruppes who more often than not held back divisions when on the defensive such as in the battles to break out of Normandy. I really haven’t the time to write up the entirety of the actions the SS formations engaged in during this period, just please read some of the books on the subject.

Also one thing you neglect to note is that your question in itself is difficult to address. Battles of this period and theatre rarely can be separated into individual division to division engagements so neatly as you’d like. If the 10th SS detached their recon battalion to support an infantry division then attacked a US armoured division for example, who is to say the recon formation wouldn’t have played a vital role? Who’s to say that without the difficulties encountered by weather and supplies that the 6th SS would have been stopped?

My point here is that we can debate the possibility of a marine formation engaging an SS formation and the likely result but so many other factors enter the equation. As they did during the war, so such division/division debates are of questionable merit.

Oh and on the 1 day issue, I didn’t refer to the ability to smash the entire division in one day, but during that day you would expect the SS formation to do most of the damage, cutting the marine formations off from each other, penetrating deep into their defensive areas and damaging supplies, artillery bases and so on. The actual fighting and driving out of the division may take more time, but the true damage would be done inside a day or maybe two. Arnhem was lost inside 1 or 2 days, it was a forgone conclusion inside the city by then, that’s just 1 example.

Gotta continue in post 2, this is getting too long :D
 
War crimes:

Ok I’m going to say something controversial here, so if you don’t wish to read it look away now. ALL armies committed war crimes! Yes the SS committed many, and yes some of these more publicised ones (Malmedy or those against the Canadians in Normandy for example) were committed by the elite panzer formations. I would never deny this, but I do deny that this was something limited to either the SS or the German army. I’ve read dozens of allied accounts of British, Canadian, Polish, French and even American troops killing surrendered enemies. There was also no doubt many a wermacht formation involved in massacres on small or large scales in Russia.

The important point here is really was it the norm, and was it accepted and promoted? Well it’s up for some debate really, amongst the 7 panzer divisions, given their extended period on the front and the relatively small numbers of direct massacres it’s hard to say it was either normal or accepted practice. It wasn’t actively frowned upon I imagine, and certain officers certainly supported such a role such as Piepier and Skorzeny, BUT at the same time many an SS officer hated these actions. Take Bittrich, CO of the korps fighting in Nijmegen and Arnhem, he went out of his way to fight the battles as fairly as he could and held the 1st Airborne in immense respect.

In any army or formation on constant campaign you are bound to get such moments, I’m not going to try and defend the actions, I’m just explaining that they happened, they always will happen in total war, no serious historian will ever try and claim that the Western allied forces never committed a war crime. Actions like Malmedy (which btw I think was alleged to be more the work of Peipier than Skorzeny) were reprehensible, but you’re kidding me if you believe no allied formation ever did a similar act on a smaller scale, or that the Wermacht never did either.

This along with what I mentioned about the 3 types of formation I think shows that your father may have been right, but almost certainly not about the 7 panzer formations. They were professionals, some of their officers were fanatics and this lead to the likes of Malmedy, but to claim them as “piss poor” or “killers” is just not the whole story.

Btw please don’t take offence at this, I don’t for one moment want to sit here and claim your father lied to you, I just suggest you take a better variety of opinion than quotes and 1 mans recollection of a formation group he no doubt despised like his colleagues anyway, justified or not. :)

:eek: Now that's a long couple of posts! :D Can I get a cookie? ;)
 
this is not the subject...

The modern US army has not commited war crimes, along with what i have up there includes the BEF on 1914, not that anyone really nkows what that is anyway.
 
this is not the subject...

I thought this subject was about the most efficient formations, he contested the quality and efficiency of a formation some consider one of the best, I was debating it with him :p
 
Why was he banned?

And yes the US did commit war crimes, every army everywhere during every time has, the only difference is the scale and unfortunetly when you let 1000s of men with guns run around afraid for their lives you have to expect it. BTW, the country with the worst record for killing POWs on the Western front was Canada followed closely by America (and yes that is including the Germans).

-Pat
 
He was banned for threadjacking and insulting XIII (Thorgrimm said he didn't care about any warnings XIII would give for the threadjack) 3 days minimum for the thread jack and until he aplogizes to XIII he can't come back A bit of spin upon his his part regading the condition I gave him when I restricted him, Lefty. He told me most of this on MSN last night.
 
Originally posted by Patroklos
Why was he banned?

And yes the US did commit war crimes, every army everywhere during every time has, the only difference is the scale and unfortunetly when you let 1000s of men with guns run around afraid for their lives you have to expect it. BTW, the country with the worst record for killing POWs on the Western front was Canada followed closely by America (and yes that is including the Germans).

-Pat

Indeed, my point though was simply to show that the SS were no more or less as formations responsible for war crimes than the other formations on such fronts for long periods. The difference mainly would be in the publicity that grows up around such elite formations, ie more time and books have been spent on each of the SS formations and their actions than any single other army or luftwaffe formation, this alone will make more incidents public. Another important difference would be in the officers, I would guess the SS contained more fanatical officers per unit than the wermacht causing such events to occur more often. I had no intention of starting a "who caused more massacres" debate really, just making a relevant point in debating whether they were killers or not.
 
I know, this isn't the point of the topic anyway. Except the Japanese army in China that spent all its time on atrocities and thus destroyed its combat effectivness.

I know whatt he BEF of 1914 is ;)

-Pat
 
Yes, but we are debating how war crimes detracted from some of the choices combat effectiveness. Totally game.
 
Originally posted by Patroklos
Yes, but we are debating how war crimes detracted from some of the choices combat effectiveness. Totally game.

Precisely :rolleyes:
 
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