Most Realistic WW2 scenario ever

[SaMx]

Im working on the greatest ww2 scenario ever made for civilizaton 3,
Im including eastern american coast nothern africa the middle east and europe. With real cities real roads real sizes. up to 20 countries featuring the bigger powers of that time, and their possition in the war. Coming in a few weeks more.
Im using robins map. Thanks man!!

 

[GEChallenger]

Sounds cool... are you using the units included on the PTW disk?

 

[pap1723]

Well, it can't be the greatest WWII scenario ever if it is limited to the Eurpean theatre Just Kidding, good luck with this one.

Pap

 

[Kryten]

Welcome to CFC SaMx.

I have a few thoughts about "the most realistic WW2 scenario ever"....

Because in Civ3 you are only allowed to place aircraft in your own cities/airfieds, how are you going to represent the mightly power of the American 8th Airforce if the United States and Britain are different civs?
Will the Americans 'own' certain cities in England?
Or will the British be allowed to build American aircraft and station them in their own British cities?

A possible solution would be to combine the Americans, British and Canadians into one big "Western Allies" civ.
After all, EVERY operation in Europe, EVERY sea bourne landing, EVERY campaign, was a joint Anglo-American one.
Then you could have these "Western Allies" only able to build British units in 1939, and later, when America enters the war, have this civ able to build both British and American named units.

Also, because England is relatively small, they could have a limited production base....meaning that most of the big production cities will be based across the Atlantic, and most units will be built there and have to be shipped by sea to Britain. (representing 'Lend lease', the Battle of the Atlantic, and give the German U-boats something to torpedo. )
If you remove the 'allows sea trade' from Harbours, then you could arrange it so that American units can only be built in America, Canadian units are only built in Canada, and British units are only built in England.
(To reduce corruption, the 'Forbidden Palace' would be in Washington. )

These "Western Allies" could have two different types of heavy bomber:-
*British Lancasters (weak defence, but give them the 'stealth' ability....changed from 5% to say 25%....to represent the difficulty of stopping night bombers)
*American B-17 Flying Fortresses (better defence, but also the 'precision bombing' ability, to reflect their more accurate daylight bombing effects)
So....what should the "Western Allies" build....Lancasters, who are hard to stop but you can't depend upon them hitting a specific target, or B-17's, who will suffer heavy casulties (at least until 'Escorted Bombers' come along), but can be used to hit specific buildings.
(Decisions, decisions......)

As for leader-heads....
If you arrange it so that the scenario starts in say the Industrial era in 1939, then Winston Churchill will be visible.
But once the "Western Allies" gain enough techs to be able to enter the next era, then the era popup picture could be "AMERICA ENTERS THE WAR!", and now President Roosevelt is shown as their leader (representing how the Americans became the dominant partner in the alliance).

All this would also stop Britian and America from forming a 'seperate peace' with Hitler, as well as stopping them from declaring war on each other!
(With no way to set diplomacy in Civ3, who knows what the AI will do! )

Just a few thoughts.

 

[pap1723]

Wow Kryten, those are hell of ideas!!
Never even thought about all of that stuff, and it is great that you would be able to limit what was built where by dissallowing trade across water, but still be able to trade with airports. Amazing idea!

Do you think something like that might work in a global scenario because I am still working on one, and If that does work, that would free up a civilization slot, who would take that place?

Pap

 

[SaMx]

hi folks
first of all its not just european front. It also has north american western coast, african nothern coast and the middle east. I havent seen yet an scenario with this features so it will be the best ww2 scenario..i hope so....

Why just a part of america and africa and not the whole world?
the answer is simple...time...
imagine doing an scenario in the whole world where everyone has the posibility to win, no matter what civilization are you. What about small countries? will just have one city. Thats why i have choosen this incredible map made by robin. That features a giant map of europe every country with enough cities and shows african colonies and american teritory. This map do not end when the war is over...You can re-write history.

Thanks for all that ideas and please keep sending, I want this scenario to be made by anyone who wants to help.
One of my ideas for making denmark and canada potential powers was creating a new resource that later in future could replace oil (eventualy it will disapear) so those countries who have territories in the north pole (or anywhere its just an idea) can also be powerful.

The basic idea is an scenario that starts on ww2 and finishes....who knows? well see.

 

[SaMx]

i have some sugestions to make:

i was thinking of considering your idea of making the british empir and united states one big power but... I think this would take a bit of fun. What do you think?
and how do you think that europe should be divided?
my idea was to do "mayor" powers: Germany, British Empire, United States, Soviet Union, Turkey, Italy, Scandinavia (norway and Sweden), Spain and neutral powers (switzerland, irish rep. portugal, netherlands, belgium and others.) . And having "minor powers: finland, chekoslovaquia austria and hungary, rumania bulgaria and albania, yugoeslavia, baltic states and greece.

please give me some ideas to make the numbers decrease without mixing to many diferent cultures
thanks

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by SaMx
i was thinking of considering your idea of making the british empir and united states one big power but... I think this would take a bit of fun. What do you think?

Well....do you want an historicaly accurate scenario, or just a bit of fun?
(Historical scenarios can be fun too...."can I do better than they did in reality?")

I think that when creating a scenario, the EFFECTS are more important the CAUSES.

For example: there were a lot of small countries in Europe in 1939, such as Switzerland.
But did they have any effect on the military campaigns at the time?.....no.
So why included them as a civ?
(Personally, I would have Switzerland as 3 or 4 mountains, and make mountains impassible. THAT gives the right EFFECT....nobody entered Switzerland in WW2)

So instead of looking at each and every country and trying to include them all, I think it would be better to just look at the EFFECT that each country had, and only include the ones that made an impact.

Switzerland, Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Portugal....none of them affected the main strategic campaigns....and including them would give completely the wrong effects.
(Yes, in some weird parallel universe, they may have joined in or been fought over.
But the history of THIS world is the only one I know. )

Using this EFFECT theme, what are you going to do about the American 8th Airforce?
I for one cannot concieve a WW2 scenario without American air power.
But Civ3 will not allow allies to base units in each others cities.
So you have three choices.....
1) the Americans are in America, so no air power over Europe (unrealistic)
2) have the Americans control some cities in England (unrealistic)
3) combine them into one civ (Ah!, this gives the right EFFECT )

So maybe it would be better to look at what actually happend, then try to bend every Civ3 rule in the editor to try and simulate that historical event.

(Mind you, this is all from a bloke who has NEVER created a scenario, and is part of a team who has spent over a year trying to make Alexander the Great)

 

[Procifica]

Originally posted by SaMx
hi folks
first of all its not just european front. It also has north american western coast, african nothern coast and the middle east. I havent seen yet an scenario with this features so it will be the best ww2 scenario..i hope so....

Why just a part of america and africa and not the whole world?
the answer is simple...time...
imagine doing an scenario in the whole world where everyone has the posibility to win, no matter what civilization are you. What about small countries? will just have one city. Thats why i have choosen this incredible map made by robin. That features a giant map of europe every country with enough cities and shows african colonies and american teritory. This map do not end when the war is over...You can re-write history.

Thanks for all that ideas and please keep sending, I want this scenario to be made by anyone who wants to help.
One of my ideas for making denmark and canada potential powers was creating a new resource that later in future could replace oil (eventualy it will disapear) so those countries who have territories in the north pole (or anywhere its just an idea) can also be powerful.

The basic idea is an scenario that starts on ww2 and finishes....who knows? well see.

First, word of advice. Bragging that your scenario is the best WWII scenario ever before its even finished is NOT a good idea. Just wanted to get that out.

Two, there are ELEVEN different WWII scenarios in the Completed Scenarios forum, and at least 2 more in progress on this forum, besides yours. Have you looked at all of them? I like your choice of map though, I'm considering using it for a WWI scenario.

And I'd like to know how your map includes the "western" american coast. Believe you meant eastern.

Turkey was not a major power.

Norway and Sweden should be separate, as Norway was conquered by Germany in June, 1940.

Spain was hardly a neutral power.

Belgium and Netherlands later became belligerents (though not by choice).

Chekoslovaquia? LOL Czechoslovakia was not really a minor power, as it was crucially important for this time period (and had nearly as many armed divisions as Poland, a country twice its size, and almost double that of Belgium). Poland should be separate (which you failed to mention).

Hungary, Austria, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Yugoslavia, Baltic States, Greece, Finland, Baltic States, if you're using PTW, I'd make all of these independent. All were important to WWII in their own way.

Denmark, maybe, could be combined with Norway, if you wish to combine civ's. (since they were attacked at the same time) Ditto for Netherlands and Belgium.

Real cities, real roads, real sizes. I think most if not all WWII scenario makers have this in mind. Its not a unique concept.

Every country with enough cities. Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland and other smaller nations still will only have 2 or 3 cities at most (I've seen the map). What about Luxembourg?

Where do you get the idea that a nation has territory at the North Pole? I believe the highest latitude of territory owned is probably by Canada, about 82 degree latitude or so. Though I think Russia might have an island or two slightly higher. I don't think Greenland extends past this point either. This still places you at least 500+ miles from the North Pole. (which in theory, couldn't be placed on a flat map because it would expand across the entire north)

I recommend you do some more research, and try to cut the arrogant bragging down a little, ok?

You do have the right idea though, and hopefully this will be a success. Again, I like your choice of map.

 

[Procifica]

Oh, and by the way, if this scenario starts after March, 1939, then Czechoslovakia and Austria would be a part of Germany. If it starts after October, 1938, then the Sudentland (spelling) areas of Czechoslovakia would be a part of Germany, as well as Austria. If this scenario starts after March, 1938, then Austria would be a part of Germany.

If it starts after September, 1939, then Poland would also be a part of Germany.

 

[Procifica]

Originally posted by Kryten
For example: there were a lot of small countries in Europe in 1939, such as Switzerland.
But did they have any effect on the military campaigns at the time?.....no.
So why included them as a civ?
(Personally, I would have Switzerland as 3 or 4 mountains, and make mountains impassible. THAT gives the right EFFECT....nobody entered Switzerland in WW2)

So instead of looking at each and every country and trying to include them all, I think it would be better to just look at the EFFECT that each country had, and only include the ones that made an impact.

Switzerland, Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Portugal....none of them affected the main strategic campaigns....and including them would give completely the wrong effects.
(Yes, in some weird parallel universe, they may have joined in or been fought over.
But the history of THIS world is the only one I know. )

Sorry Kryten, but I've got to step in.

Switzerland DID have a major bearing on WWII, particularly during the invasion of France. Hitler was extremely worried about Switzerland and what they might do, and had some forces on the Swiss frontier near Geneva. Switzerland was fully mobilized for war during the entire conflict, just as they were also in WWI. Hitler chose not to attack Switzerland because of the terrain and the enormous cost in taking a relatively insignificant nation (Switzerland is one of the most militarized countries in the world, all men ages like 18-47 (I could be off) receive annual military training and can be called up as militia if needed. I could be off a little bit on this second-hand info).

Spain also had some impact on strategic campaigns, as several times during the war, Hitler tried to get them to agree on a joint attack at Gibraltar. Spain was a friendly neutral to Hitler during the war. Franco coveted France's colonies in North Africa and almost struck a bargain with Hitler to receive them, in exchange for help against the United Kingdom.

Sweden was a vital iron-ore supplier of Hitler, and Hitler had right of transit across Swedish territory both in the invasion of Norway, and when he invaded Russia. Sweden was used in this way for most of the rest of the war, as a way for troops to cross back and forth between Norway and Finland.

Portugal I can give you, and Turkey also wasn't of significant importance.

 

[SaMx]

well well im sorry for that mistakes.

Let me explain you that in my country you write Czechoslovakia in the other way but since im writing in english, ive made a mistake.

Yes i meant eastern. From almost the North pole land to Miami.

Turkey has lot of cities so it can be a major power in the future due to its resource and strategic location.

About the countries...thats why I asked for help. I have spent hours reading history books an I just cant fin a way to make it work out fine.

Im just trying to make a ww2 scenario taht everyone can enjoy. Please keep replying sending suggetions

thanks

 

[Procifica]

Well I believe I gave you quite a few helpful suggestions.

What language is Czechoslovakia spelled that way? It looks like a literal pronunciation of it in English.

Turkey maybe today has potential to be a major power, but at time its population wasn't that high, it was highly agricultural, and it had a very poor economy. So I don't see the argument for it being a major power in 1939. Potential maybe later in the scenario, maybe.

Alright, so here's my suggestions:

USA/UK/Canada combined (as suggested by others, this would include Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Malta, and Gibraltar)
Germany (this may include Austria and/or Czechoslovakia depending on starting date)
Poland
Russia
France (including Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, most of Morocco, Tunisia)
Italy (including Libya)
Spain (including the northern tip of Morocco, excluding Gibraltar)
Low Countries (Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands)
Denmark (including Greenland and Iceland)
Norway
Sweden
Finland
Hungary
Romania
Bulgaria
Yugoslavia
Albania
Greece (omitted before by mistake)
Turkey
Switzerland (flag all units buildable by switzerland as immobile, prevent them from building all other units, this will make them neutral if they can't do anything. Give them awesome defense so no one will be dumb enough to attack them)
Baltic States (Estonia, Latavia, Lithuania (spelling))
Neutrals (Portugal, Ireland, treat like switzerland, these were true neutrals)

This gives you about 20 countries (if I counted correctly), PTW allows 31.

More accurately for 1939 though, the USA and UK should be separate. Canada though, could be combined with UK.

 

[SaMx]

well im having turkey on it because of its position, even if its not powerful but it was there,
anyway
what can you tell me about greece?

 

[Kryten]

My turn Procifica.

The problem is, IF in Civ3 becomes WILL.

IF Spain for example was made a civ, then they WILL become involved....which, in reality, they didn't.

Civ3 is a very imperfect tool with which to use to recreate historical campaigns.....especially without a scenario editor. .

Soooo (using Switzerland again), what was their EFFECT in WW2?
You have two choices....

1) make them a civ, and eventually they will start attacking or being attacked, thus making the scenario end up being completely unhistorical....
OR
2) ignor the CAUSES and just go for the EFFECTS....no-one attacked or entered Switzerland in reality, so simulate that effect by making it impossible to do so.

Now then, which one of these two choices is closest to what actually happend?
(Maybe it was the terrain that put the other nations off the idea, or maybe the Swiss army, maybe it was because of political considerations.....who cares!.
The EFFECT is, no-one entered, whatever the CAUSE.
You could get all the CAUSES just right, but if the EFFECT comes out wrong, then it's not historical. )

It's the same with all the other countries and events; making the right EFFECTS happen is the most important thing, because Civ3 just can't handle all the different CAUSES.

 

[Procifica]

Oops, I forgot to list Greece on that list. So 21 countries.

Kryten: I agree that Civ3 is EXTREMELY bad in most cases to create a true historical campaign (unless you have just two sides on the map, as in my ACW scenario).

I did suggest a way to make Switzerland unattackable, and for them not to attack.

Well, then going off of your considerations, the following countries could not be in the scenario (their land area would be a void): Portugal, Sweden, Ireland, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey.

I do support however, the "what if" though, within reason. It is possible that Spain could have joined in. It is not likely that Portugal would have. As examples.

Making this or almost any other scenario truly historical is nearly IMPOSSIBLE with the current editor setup. So I think some "what-if" should be included.

If the scenario was truly historical, as in this instance, then the Germans would ALWAYS lose in the end.

 

[SaMx]

so...
at last im having this:
uk, us and canada
denmark
norway and sweden
germany (with austria)
france
italy
spain
hungary and Czekoslovakia
romania and bulgaria
baltic states
finland
soviet union
low countries
greece
turkey
yugoslavia
poland
Other Neutral (switzerland, irish republic and portugal)

so what about albania??Join it with who?

With this I reduce the number of countries involve so the game is faster, and eaier to play (easy in the way of not confusing) Also, you have more chances to win with any nation. Not only with germany uk soviets or france as it is on other ww2 scnarios.

do you agree with my point view.
or do you think I should make it different.
----------
Seig Heil

 

[pap1723]

Spain also had some impact on strategic campaigns, as several times during the war, Hitler tried to get them to agree on a joint attack at Gibraltar. Spain was a friendly neutral to Hitler during the war. Franco coveted France's colonies in North Africa and almost struck a bargain with Hitler to receive them, in exchange for help against the United Kingdom.

Spain could/would have gotten involved if the Germans had won the air battle during the Battle of Britain. Even if they did not choose to launch Sealion, Franco was ready to pledge his support and to launch a joint attack with Germany against Gibraltar which, if succesful, would have had the big effect of making Italy's navy enter the Atlantic and possibly shifting the Battle of the Atlantic as well.

The thing is, that making it COMPLETELY historically accurate is impossible with the limitations of Civ III right now. But making it historical with options would be possible. For instance, group civilizations with idealogical powers together as culture groups. Germany and Spain (was more fascist leaning at the time). And by giving them the right settings as far as which units to build a lot of, thier civ bonuses, etc. it is possible (with a lot of testing) to get things pretty historical while at the same time keeping it fun.

Pap

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by Procifica

This still places you at least 500+ miles from the North Pole. (which in theory, couldn't be placed on a flat map because it would expand across the entire north)

It depends of the projection of the map

 

[pap1723]

so...
at last im having this:
uk, us and canada
denmark
norway and sweden
germany (with austria)
france
italy
spain
hungary and Czekoslovakia
romania and bulgaria
baltic states
finland
soviet union
low countries
greece
turkey
yugoslavia
poland
Other Neutral (switzerland, irish republic and portugal)

Can't have Norway and Sweden together as they had 2 very different roles in the war. Sweden staying completely neutral (except trading with Germany) and Norway was captured by Germany, but almost the Brits

You should start it in September of 1939 right before the attack into Poland. I don't know what you should do with Czechoslovakia Hungary, Roumania and Bulgaria since they became basically part of German control all in November of 1940 between the 20-24 except for Bulagria which waited until March 1941. Yugoslavia became part of the Tripartite Pact on 25 March, 1941, but there was still fighting there for many of the cities and many of the armies were sent from Bulgaria, Roumania and Hungary. That whole region is a tough one to call.

The Baltic states would most likely be a part of the Soviet Union, so you shold make them the Balkan states and Include Yugoslavia, Bulgaria (possibly or start the scenario in June of 1941 with the attack on Russia then all of these would be German except for Albania which would be Italian), Albania and Greece since during the war, there was just the one attack into the Balkans to get the whole region.

I don't know what to tell you, because there are not that many options to realistically recreate what happened if you start in 1939...but if you start in 1941, then most of Europe will already be the Axis and it will be harder to change some parts of history.

Pap