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Most underrated civs

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by inthesomeday, May 9, 2016.

  1. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    I just rolled Germany in an online game, now I've always known the Hanse was pretty good but I always considered all their uniques too situational to rank them very highly. As a result I rarely played them except the 1/43 games where I rolled them. I had a great time though, their UA is super useful for wide play/defending territories and completing CS quests. Then the Hanse rolled around and I actually sent most of my routes out to CS, and-- Jesus those Hanse hammers are crazy. It got me thinking, what are some other civs I might be avoiding just because their uniques don't sound great at face value?
     
  2. MIS

    MIS Prince

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    SP or MP?

    If SP, which VC?
     
  3. Montezuma II

    Montezuma II Chieftain

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    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505057

    From this list, I'd say China is underrated. Compared to a library, the paper maker provides +3GPT (a lot early-game) & Chu-Ko-Nu is the best UU imo. Attacking twice opens up hit-and-run tactics and racks up experience quicker.

    I'd also say America. UA helps with exploration and gets you to ruins faster. Minutemen will wreak havoc later as well.
     
  4. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I imagine OP rather likes China. America is definitely underrated.

    It might be simpler if you say which civs you avoid. Several civs deserve their poor reputation!

    Adwcta has Huns and Zulu as lower tier, so that is nuts. I like consentient's ranking, but note that he ends up with only a point between tiers, which I think is actually an accurate reflection of how balanced they all are.

    But speaking of uniques that don’t sound great at face value, I particularly like Carthage when I can settle all coastal spots, then pick up “Messenger of the Gods” pantheon. That is only situation where that pantheon does anything, but for Carthage, it is quite the buff.
     
  5. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    Carthage is one I consider to be second to last tier, as are Ottomans, Assyria, Japan, France, Sweden, Polynesia (mostly play Pangaea maps, this is probably subjective), Portugal, and Morocco. The negative tier civs for me are just Venice, India, and Iroquois.
     
  6. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    For Pangaea then, I think your list is just about right!

    Sweden should certain factor better into your rotation, and fits your description of a UA that seems terrible on its face. Giving away GP? How stupid is that?

    But it actually works great and is well worth the GP sacrifice (for GMu, GG, and mostly used GPr). CS allies buff every VC, so you are by no means locked into Diplo VC.

    Sweden is a bit conflicted to play, since you want to be constantly at war, generating GG points, but you also want DOFs. So maybe just pick a fight early and never make peace? No need to take cities. The Caroleans get the best promotion, and your early melee units can focus on Cover.

    If you warmonger, you might give the Ottomans another go. I particularly enjoy prize on ironclads (but that probably does not matter for Pangaea), but the Janissaries and Sipahis are really quite good, and work well together.

    If you like peaceful play, you might give Morocco another go. The trick is having several different AIs within trade route range. The extra gold is quite substantial. It might have you using more external routes, but since the AI get extra gold for each trade route sent to Morocco, even playing as normal you will notice the extra money. Very nice for every VC!
     
  7. Kriogen

    Kriogen Warlord

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    Germany: Hanse is good. Even better with Religious Community on top.

    Indonesia is not bad on water maps.

    Venice is ... some say weak, but I'll say different. Good mid/late game warmongers.
     
  8. Captain_Wozzeck

    Captain_Wozzeck Chieftain

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    I think Sweden are really excellent actually, and better on deity. The reason being that when you are at war you get 3 sources of great people: Generals, Admirals, and the prophets that you can steal from AIs!! All three of these great people tend to be much more common on deity, because there are more units to go and kill, and the prophet spam needs no introduction.

    If you are lucky enough to get a religion then you get another source of prophets. With Sweden you can use them to spread religion 3 times and then gift to city states.


    I actually find Morocco really underwhelming. I notice they are highly ranked on the tier list cited earlier in the thread, but I find their UA very situational really. As you say, you need multiple AIs nearby. Also, I don't really buy the argument that Morocco's UA makes the AI more friendly. In my experience the AI needs no encouragement to send trade routes, and they seem equally likely to cancel and declare war when playing as Morocco.

    Portugal is better in my opinion because it works equally well with city states and single neighbours. It also comes with a coastal start bias, which is useful for trade, and probably ends up with a higher base gold bonus than morocco, obviously depending on resources.

    To throw another civilization in the ring: Assyria. I seldom see Assyria highly ranked, but it's UA can garner about 15-20 technologies in a game! As long as you plan a little (e.g. pick up 2-turn optics before capturing a city) you can avoid it being wasted on poor technologies. I find when stacked with Autocracy spy stealing, this UA can really let you bomb down the lower half of the tech tree late game without worrying about falling behind too much. Siege towers are situational, but certainly not useless...
     
  9. Captain_Wozzeck

    Captain_Wozzeck Chieftain

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    I've probably played more hours with the Ottomans than any other civ, they are such fun. I really want them to be good tier, but as an ardent fan I have to admit they are very situational. The Janissary is great, but forces you to war at the odd time when ranged units are losing significance and I'm usually waiting for artillery.

    The UA is fun, but ultimately not that useful. I think 90% of the time I capture a ship and it dies next turn in enemy waters.

    So for me the Ottomans are like Denmark. They are in the top 5 of my "Fun tier list", but ultimately I concede that they are weaker overall.

    The enlightenment era mod is excellent for the Ottomans though. So many more melee ships to play with :)
     
  10. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I agree with others itt saying that both America and Germany are severely underrated. I would also add Aztec to that list, specifically Aztec for peaceful victory conditions. Even without lakes, I think their UB is among the very best in the entire game, competing with Stele, Pyramids and Ikanda for the #1 spot imo.

    Sweden I would say is hit n miss. Yes, they are much, much better than what meets the eye: Giving Great Prophets to City States when they have only 1 charge left, giving away GP captured from an enemy, giving away unneeded GG (even though that doesn't happen too often, often times they are useful for claiming a faraway lux or strategic if you are playing for DomV).

    On the other hand though there is that one downside that no one ever mentions and everyone forgets: The start bias. Their doom.

    Nothing in this game is worse than a Tundra start. Even a desert start is better, because you'll atleast have some floodplains around and with Petra even blank desert tiles are okay. Also With Petra every desert tile surrounding an Oasis gets freshwater, which is insanely good. Tundra just blows in every way imagineable. It has lots of trapping ressources, which are the worst luxuries in the entire game, it has very little food and the Pantheon is only really usable for tundra hills.
     
  11. Captain_Wozzeck

    Captain_Wozzeck Chieftain

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    I actually started a thread about this a while back. The hidden advantage to a tundra bias is that it puts you on the edge of the map, and thus much less likely to be embroiled in unwinnable conflicts or trapped between warmongerers.

    Everything you say is true, it often has bad food or production (deer tiles without forests anyone?), but it's not so bad that it loses you the game every time.

    Also, people rate Russia highly, and they have the same :lol:
     
  12. IkM

    IkM King

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    Ottomans and America are the 2 most underrated civs IMHO. You can't even imagine how fun to play as Ottomans. + if there is a sea, you just roll. Ships, ships everywhere. lel.

    Sipahis are one of the most useful unit in entire game. They are literally Scouts of Industrial Era. 5 move, free pillage +1 extra sight. Just use them with artillery and capture any city easily.
     
  13. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Okay, I retract my assertion that Morocco is better than OP might think! I also forgot to confirm that the UB is as lame as anyone says.
    I forgot that Portugal is as much a gold hound as Morocco. Their UA does nothing to attract AI trade routes (which helps keep AI friendly, but only a little) but I imagine 2x gold has to be much, much better than +3 gold? Can you say anything nice about the Portugal UU and UB? I am still feeling underwhelmed by them.

    Sure, but that is still okay because (1) without the UA, the enemy ship would have survived, and (2) the AI was distracted into attacking the prize rather than your ship! Also, as with Privateers, captured ships have 0 XP. That really takes away much of the appeal!

    I actually prefer a tundra start over unforested grasslands and/or plains. You only need like three tiles for the pantheon to catch you a religion, so that is really quite manageable.
     
  14. Captain_Wozzeck

    Captain_Wozzeck Chieftain

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    Well based on discussions I've had over at /r/civ, the Feitoria is controversial, a lot of people seem not to like it. However, I think it's really quite excellent.

    It's basically free happiness. If any coastal city state (and most of them are coastal, even on Pangaea) has a luxury you want, you can get it, simple as. This is great for we love the king days, but more importantly provides a huge combat boost right at the time you tend to start conquering as a naval civ (Navigation tech). I've found it to be really useful for domination for that reason. It can also be good for surviving ideology conflicts and/or selling the luxuries if you don't need the happiness.

    In my mind gold-focused civs can be domination civs as much as diplomatic. With commerce and Autocracy purchasing discount, gold-based military is my favourite way to play the late game. With Portugal's UI, you don't even need to spend gold on city states to get their luxuries any more, saving even more gold :).

    The UU is ok, but not a game-changer. +1 movement on a caravel is nice, and it tends to bring in ~230 gold on a standard map for each trade mission. If you have high production it might be worth spamming them, but I find myself building the typical 2-3.

    I think I'm also partial to the civs that have thematic synergy. All 3 of the bonuses give a nice sea-faring trade feel and can benefit both peaceful and military play.
     
  15. Captain_Wozzeck

    Captain_Wozzeck Chieftain

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    While it might be a bit of a stretch to say most useful in the game, I am partial to the Sipahi. I think a lot of people discount it because it's a lancer, but it's a really useful support unit.

    The free pillaging and 5 movement is a guaranteed way to annoy people in multiplayer too :lol:

    Also, it has a pretty icon :)
     
  16. miaasma

    miaasma Prince

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    my main reason for not liking morocco is my distaste for desert starts. desert starts can be great, but in my experience they're mostly flat and straight desert tiles are pretty bad even with kasbahs

    i really like russia, the extra copies of strategic resources is a lot of early gold provided you meet lots of AIs early enough, and i say this despite my loathing for tundra starts
     
  17. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    One thing people tend to forget about Feitorias is that all you need is a coastal tile - a mere 1 tile lake will suffice. It doesn't need to be on the ocean, it could even be in the center of a Pangaea, as long as there's a lake nearby to provide you with a Luxury-free coastal tile.
     
  18. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    Indonesia is often underrated because of its UA's situational nature. Its UB, however, generates incredible amounts of faith (+4 per city with just your religion, and it will often get to +6 or +8 with minimal effort). If you plan ahead enough to put that faith to good use, Indonesia can be quite powerful.
     
  19. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    You are apparently getting twice as many techs out of the UA than I do, but I agree that they are a fun and powerful civ. They are also featured in the current GotM, so maybe give that a try? Good luck!
     
  20. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    The siege tower can be cool, and I've managed to use it for rushes before. Its problem is that it's a melee siege unit, and just like the battering ram its main purpose ends up being to soak fire. Which is a great purpose, don't get me wrong, it's just that on its own it isn't all that good. I recently rolled Assyria in a pub online game and using the siege tower I managed to scare my Austrian neighbor off of a really good settle and managed to pick up 2 luxes, a river, and a labyrinth of hills perfect for mining. However I tried to archer rush, confident I could build an archer or two out of each city for ~6 archers and then just send in two siege towers, and Austria was bottom military, but his blocking scouts and comp bows made mincemeat out of the towers and I retreated with the army. That game I received next to no bonus from my civ, besides bullying a settle in a bunch of hills, something that could have been done with a scout.
    It's just that Assyria's bonuses to me don't seem to be very useful; the Royal Library is really useless, the siege tower is very situational, and while I expect the UA is useful for very early war where it's possible to barrel down the bottom of the tech tree and still be competitive-- or arty rushes, maaaaaybe xbow rushes-- these kinds of rushes are also very situational in their practicality.
     

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