moved up to Noble recently, Civs spawning cities much more than on Warlord...

[Leathaface]

Sometimes my capital would be just at size 4 and another civ would have 2 cities already, even 3 cities. When I find a 2nd city, I look out at the good spots for my others cities.

I then go to beefing up my defence (as i'm "0.8" in the red to a couple of civs) and a couple of turns later (in this case) Mansa Munsa has spawned 2 cities in good spots, Ragnar has spawned 2 cities and Caesar has a city right up my alley.

I find it hard to compete with this, by the time I get my 5th city at least 2 others civs have 12/13 cities, it seems I would need to almost constantly get out settlers to compete. What can I do?

 

[The Oz-Man]

Too many possible answers to this question. I'd suggest posting a sample game and running us through your beginning-of-the-game logic. The Shaka Nobles' Club game that dalamb just put up isn't too taxing, and I think Noble-level players can get a lot out of it.

Here's a pretty easy question, though: how many workers do you have out early, and how many of them are chopping trees to accelerate production? How often do you whip? That can be huge.

 

[Revent]

Well, what's your build order? Are you building a worker first to improve your food tiles for your city to grow quickly? (Same mistake I used to make not too long ago ) What I learnt was worker first, then most of the time, build warriors till size 4/5 (or even 3 in some cases) and start pumping out worker-settler-worker-settler, etc.. until your economy drops or you have enough cities for the time being. I don't think being in the red zone right in the beginning should matter too much, I've barely seen anyone declare war on me whilst I've been playing Noble in the early game. Plus, if you have 1 city, building up some defence will take forever, but if you have say 6 cities each building a defence unit, that's much more faster I'd imagine.

 

[Leathaface]

I put out 3 workers to cut down the forest for Axemen in this game, but I normally only have 1 worker when my city is at size 3/4 or even 5. When i've 3 (or even 4, never 5) cities i've only 2 workers most of the time. Not quick enough there.

Before I took away most of the forest around the city chopping, only leaving 3 or 4 pieces if the city was loaded with wood, but since I found out trees are important for health I don't chop a lot, maybe 4 or 5 trees. I didn't whip a lot before, but since watching a youtube video by Chris67132 and how he whipped much I stepped up a bit. When my city grows to size 5 and becomes unhappy I whip.

The saves of this game:

Save 1 is me putting in plans to rush Mutal, I was cornered off on the map and had to take out the Mayans. (BTW, BTS is the game and i've BUG installed.)

Save 2 is me ATM, see all the cities spawn. Ragnar across from me has 8 cities, me only 3 of which I caught 2. Fair enough, I built a big group of axeman to take the 2 Maya cities, but still. I've only 3 at the absolute max if I didn't attack the Mayans.

MY LOGIC: Because I was corned on the map I felt the need to annihalate the Mayan civilization, so I built 20 axemen and took their 2 cities.

 

[lymond]

Leatha - Another way to look at it is they are just settling new cities for you Still, on Noble you should not be outpaced that quickly. There's certainly some things you are doing wrong, but we can't really help much without seeing your game. Only speculate, which doesn't do you much good.

xpost: ah...I see some saves...I will take a look

 

[lymond]

Well, looking at your first save it's pretty simple what going on here:

1) You are not building a settler or worker. You aren't going to expand without them
2) Mutal is far enough away that I'd not worry about rushing him...just expand
3) No need for axes if you don't rush. Put chops into settlers and workers. Whip settlers at size 5 or 6

Hunting>TW> Archery absolutely horrible tech path. DON'T TECH ARCHERY! I don't tech archery on Immortal and I play with Barbs on. Archery is something you can generally always avoid and trade for later, if you want it.

Better tech path:

Mining>BW>TW>Pot>Writing

Mining is usually one of your first techs if you don't start with it. Food first, ofc, if you don't have necessary food techs.

I really question your settings. Huge, Marathon, No Barbs, No Vassals, No Espionage. I recommend using the normal settings and use options they way they are meant to be played. Barbs are easily dealt with and have advantages. Espionage can be used passively.

Oh...and on Huge maps, AI have much more land to expand into and will often outpace the human

 

[lymond]

Looking at your second save, you are not in a terrible position. AIs don't have that many cities. The problem is that you have not built any yourself.

Try to keep your empire more compact. Expanding too far out really starts to hurt your economy. And make sure you get internal and foreign trade routes hooked up.

You have no open borders with anyone!

Note on Teching:

Try to get familiar with AI priority techs and try to tech things that will set up trades for things like IW and Alpha. OR just tech Alpha yourself, which may be a good idea on Noble since hypothetically you should start blowing the AIs away shortly after reaching Alpha and getting a few backfill techs. On higher levels, Aesths is great trade bait for things like Maths, Alpha, IW and all the religious tech stuff, if you avoid Oracle. On Noble, a straight beeline to Alpha and then Maths>Currency, maybe trading for Maths along the way is often good. However, your overall tech path from the start is very bad and you've self-teched a lot of stuff you could have simply traded for.

Fill in good cities near your cap and don't expand thousands of miles away. Of course, if you simply go for rushing the entire map that is a different story, but my mindset with you currently is to focus on empire building for now.

 

[Leathaface]

I didn't have any settlers lined up because I was making axemen to rush Pacal. I am also cautios with Espionage on marathon speed cos I read a BTS review where the reviewer said Espionage makes the game useless on marathon speed because the AI will find out everything about you.

Well, what's your build order? Are you building a worker first to improve your food tiles for your city to grow quickly? (Same mistake I used to make not too long ago ) What I learnt was worker first, then most of the time, build warriors till size 4/5 (or even 3 in some cases) and start pumping out worker-settler-worker-settler, etc.. until your economy drops or you have enough cities for the time being. I don't think being in the red zone right in the beginning should matter too much, I've barely seen anyone declare war on me whilst I've been playing Noble in the early game. Plus, if you have 1 city, building up some defence will take forever, but if you have say 6 cities each building a defence unit, that's much more faster I'd imagine.

1) Settle in default spot (Capital quality city) and set Warrior to explore in a direction.
2) Build warrior in city and set him to explore automatically. (or manually if I see a promising spot)
3)Build scout (cos I have hunting by now) and set him to explore.
4) Build another scout and set him to explore.
5) Build worker.
6)Build Barracks.
7) Build archer.
8) Build Archer.
9) Build 2nd worker.
10) Chops woods and and send out settler.

I leave the 2nd city idle for long while I improve my first city with my workers, which I know is wrong. (hence me here.)

I think I picked up the fondness for exploring earlier on from Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia) which is my main civ. He has hunting as a starting technology, so I would with him:

1) Settle city and set scout to explore automatically.
2) Build 1st scout in city. (explore automatically) (15 turns, sometimes 10.)
3) Build 2nd scout in city. (explore automatically) (25 turns)
4) Build 4th scout. (explore automatically) (35 turns)

I did this because I would get loads of goody huts. I would sometimes get 3 free technologies and 1,700 gold off goody huts. That is more than likely why I choose to explore.

 

[barbertje]

Your problem is that you build too much defensive troops/barracks/walls. There's no need to build walls and defenders in the capital, wich is 20 tiles from the nearest enemy city. Now that you border Augustus Caesar and you're close to Ragnar, it is indeed wise to keep some axes around (and do not promote them all to city raider when they might have to defend against praetorians), but nothing like this. The 5 units in Mutal are also useless. (I'd send some over to Utrecht, wich is empty and close to ragnar)

You should build a road on the gold near Mutal to figth unhappiness.

I don't understand your comment about espionage on marathon speed?

Did you make that weird road from the east of Mutal, along the coast in the direction of Mansa?
That's not an efficient usage of workers turns. Better to connect Utrecht, and road to mansa and Ragnar from there (and open borders for international trade)

 

[lymond]

I didn't have any settlers lined up because I was making axemen to rush Pacal.

As I mentioned, I don't think this was the best approach and certainly didn't need 20 axe to kill him. Try focusing on empire building for now. Your game is very lacking at present. Follow our advice and you will prosper.

I am also cautios with Espionage on marathon speed cos I read a BTS review where the reviewer said Espionage makes the game useless on marathon speed because the AI will find out everything about you.

I'm very hesitant to listen to a "reviewer" of CIV IV over the advice of this forum. Then again, I don't play Marathon and I advise that you don't either. Bigger is not always better. However, if you are dead set on Marathon, I will let the Marathon players chime in. I'm sure Seriael will pop around soon.

1) Settle in default spot (Capital quality city) and set Warrior to explore in a direction.
Fine, although I hope you are not automating the Warrior -it's important to control the initial scouting unit to find good city spots in the surrounding radius around your city
2) Build warrior in city and set him to explore automatically. (or manually if I see a promising spot) Not good at all
3)Build scout (cos I have hunting by now) and set him to explore. Bad Bad Extra Bad...and so was teching Hunting
4) Build another scout and set him to explore.So bad it hurts...I'm literally in pain
5) Build worker. This should be your first build almost always. Watch your game blossom when you start doing this and not the complete crap in steps 1-4
6)Build Barracks. Now you can build a warrior to grow and spawnbust/defend settlers
7) Build archer. Well, you should not have Archery, so either build a warrior to grow to Size 3 and switch to Settler
8) Build Archer.Probably about time to build that first Settler
9) Build 2nd worker.This is good
10) Chops woods and and send out settler.This is fine, but I don't think you actually did this in your game. Make sure you get up food resources

I leave the 2nd city idle for long while I improve my first city with my workers, which I know is wrong. (hence me here.)Not sure what you mean by idle other than unimproved. First worker should get up at least 3 to 4 good improvements in Cap. Workers should then road to new city site, if you have TW, and start improving this city immediately. Food first always unless that city has a strat resource you want asap. Timing of all this varies

I think I picked up the fondness for exploring earlier on from Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia) which is my main civ. He has hunting as a starting technology, so I would with him:

1) Settle city and set scout to explore automatically.
2) Build 1st scout in city. (explore automatically) (15 turns, sometimes 10.)
3) Build 2nd scout in city. (explore automatically) (25 turns)
4) Build 4th scout. (explore automatically) (35 turns)

Everything you just mention right here is extremely noobtastic. DO NOT DO THIS

I did this because I would get loads of goody huts. I would sometimes get 3 free technologies and 1,700 gold off goody huts. That is more than likely why I choose to explore.I think you will soon find that many folks around here don't even play with huts and events on. Not saying not to play with them, but don' base your game and strategy on Huts and don't ruin your early game because you want to go Hut hunting. Whatever your initial Scout or Warrior find is plenty. Don't build Scouts - it's a complete waste of hammers

Edit: Just noticed Barb's comments about you building Walls, which I did not notice. Walls are another complete waste of hammers. Only build them in a border city if you get attacked. Easy quick 2 pop Whip when you need them.

 

[Smilingrogue]

Huge, Marathon, eh? I used to play that setting a lot. Lymod's already given you a lot of good advice. One thing I do have to caution about though is that worker first is not always an ideal move on Huge/Marathon setting. It is very likely that the worker will run out of things to do as techs are very expensive. Particularly horrible move for some one like Saladin or the Celts as their starter techs are sad.

If you want to play with espionage off till you are comfortable on Noble, that's fine. But it has several uses. If you really focus on Espionage (Called and Espionage Economy) you can do some hilarious and downright mean things to the AIs. But in most games Espionage is useful as it lets you see what the other AIs are teching. Tech something they aren't teching and you can trade for their tech later. Though this shouldn't be an issue on Noble as you can easily outtech AIs. On Noble it will help you send cities into revolts without having to bring siege, constantly swap civics on non-spiritual leaders to screw them up, blow up buildings and what not.

Archery is another tricky subject. Once I moved to Normal, I found it useless. But it's nice to have on Huge/Marathon as the barbs there are a major headache. But if you have barbs off, ignore archery completely unless you get screwed big time by the map and don't have any early metals.

 

[Quibblesome]

I've been told that playing with espionage off kinda breaks the amount of culture you need to expand cultural borders. I think its usually 30 on marathon but with espionage off I think its 60!!!! That's horrible!!! So I'd leave it on and just mostly ignore it. Just remember to set your espionage points every now and then (prioritise your major enemies) and you should be fine.

As I think someone has already suggested: Mining => BW. Make this your tech start, make a worker finish at the same time as BW finishes (don't worry about this disrupting the growth of your capital it will grow more quickly after you've improved the land) and chop out more workers and settlers (use your original warrior to escort).

One of the best things about going BW and then the Wheel is that your workers always have something to do!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I really question your settings. Huge, Marathon, No Barbs, No Vassals, No Espionage. I recommend using the normal settings and use options they way they are meant to be played.

Seconding this - if you are having trouble on Noble, then you should be trying to focus on the basic ideas of the game, rather than on variants.

If you greatly prefer marathon speed - make sure you mention that game speed in the subject of your posts, to better attract the players who are interested in that variant.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yeah for that start my builds are:

Worker - Use to irrigate the 2 food resources. Mine copper/chop forest.
Tech Mining/BW/TW/pottery.
Grow to size 3 on warrior.
At size 3 build/chop settler.
Consider second worker. Send first worker to help prepare tiles for second city and use second worker in capital.

All this scout/archers/walls/axes stuff is a bit over the top. On immortal you would get up a second city before even consdiering an axe rush. 3 workers early on with ibewow!

2800-2400bc is a good date for your second city.
By 1500bc you should have your third city built.
1000bc you could well have 4-5+ cities.
By 1ad no reason why you can't have 8 or so cities.

The key is to have 1-2 key cities that you allow to grow and dominate your economy. At 1000ad it is not unusual for your capital to be size 12-14 and it being a major source of science/commerce. This is where the top players do well.

 

[pigswill]

Do you have the 4000bc save for this game. Maybe some people could find the time to show you the benefits of their advice rather than simply tell you (what they say is true but sometimes seeing is believing).

 

[Htadus]

You have been given very good advise by most of the players.

Allow me to add:
Build a road on the gold.
Since you already have a core around Pacals old capital, build the Palace there.

To reiterate what lymond and VoU said, play a few games in standard maps in normal speed and standard size.

Also post a new game and ask others for advice from the get go instead of after over 10% of the game duration.

Finally about this statement.

MY LOGIC: Because I was corned on the map I felt the need to annihalate the Mayan civilization, so I built 20 axemen and took their 2 cities.

10-12 would have been too many. Now you are paying 3 gpt.