I'm afraid I have to disagree: the rage displayed by Achilles is in itself a clear hint of a closer relation, indicative of jealousy, as is the subsequent ride of Achilles with Hektor's body attached to his chariot. (And I am aware both of the vengeance motif in mythical stories and the fame of Achilles' raging character.) Also, the ancient Greeks were no freaks about their homosexual relationships, unlike the later Romans - and Greeks.
Movies depicting History
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Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
No, it just seems that it's a clear indication to you because you know the legend. The relationship as depicted in the film is more like that of big brother-little brother than lovers.
silver 2039
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Also would it not be considered incest?
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
Because they were cousins? I don't recall how closely they're related, but some cultures would consider it incestuous, some wouldn't. Clearly there's no danger of having inbred children in this case. I believe most Greeks had no compunctions about relationships between cousins.
Achilles and Patroclus weren't related, were they?
It was traditional to depict Patroclus as quite old, and Achilles as very young - perhaps about 16 (I'm not sure what ages they have in the Iliad, if any). So the rage of Achilles could be perfectly explicable as a reaction to the death of his beloved mentor without having to suppose that there was a sexual dimension to it. Of course the archetypal homosexual relationship in ancient Greece was between an older man and a younger one, so it would fit, but still I think to see this in Homer is to read into the text what's not necessarily there. Rather like interpreting David and Jonathan in 1 Samuel as a gay relationship - possible, but not clearly in the text.
It was traditional to depict Patroclus as quite old, and Achilles as very young - perhaps about 16 (I'm not sure what ages they have in the Iliad, if any). So the rage of Achilles could be perfectly explicable as a reaction to the death of his beloved mentor without having to suppose that there was a sexual dimension to it. Of course the archetypal homosexual relationship in ancient Greece was between an older man and a younger one, so it would fit, but still I think to see this in Homer is to read into the text what's not necessarily there. Rather like interpreting David and Jonathan in 1 Samuel as a gay relationship - possible, but not clearly in the text.
silver 2039
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I think it depended on whether it was matrilineal or patrilineal.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
They're referred to as cousins often, although I don't know if they are in the original text. Haven't read it in a while. But in the film, I'm sure they're cousins.
Regarding the age difference, that's been my experience of other depictions of Patroklus, but in the film Troy, it's actually the other way around. Patroklus is young, mid-twenties perhaps, while Achilles is in his thirties at least. Also, the usual pattern of Greek homosexual relationships was usually between an older man - usually not even thirty - and a youth. Socrates was a rarity in taking much younger lovers, it was far from the norm.
Of course, Achilles could hardly be a teenager in the film Troy, given that Brad Pitt was playing him. And in fact making him older makes more sense anyway if Achilles is supposed to be such a legendary warrior already at the time of the Trojan war. But as I say, one cannot complain of that film treating history or even the source text too freely, because the events are legendary. Even the Iliad is not really the source material (as say, The Lord of the Rings is for those films) because it was just one version of the legend (and only dealt with one incident in the war as a whole).
joycem10
Deity
I read the book by Ambrose a couple of years ago. They merged some people and gave some of the main characters storylines of people who werent depicted. Also the Blythe (the guy who was scared to fight in the Carentan episode)thing supposedly was overexaggerated and did not turn out as in the show.
It was supposed to be direct from the book, which was a historical account based on interviews with the survivors.
Bugfatty300
Buddha Squirrel
In the 2004 movie they are indeed "cousins." IMO the movie plays more along the lines of Achilles and Patroclus having a kind of father-son or better yet an older brother-younger brother type of relationship rather than a romantic one.
citedon
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Few historic movies are as accurate as Tora Tora Tora, and it even had several mistakes and liberties taken by the producers. Also, many people think it is a dull
movie, but not me. The most memorable scene where Adm. Yamamoto talks about awakening a sleeping giant and filling it with a terrible resolve pobably did not happen. He most likely felt that way, but many historians don't believe that he actually spoke those words. IMO it is still a great movie for history lovers.
movie, but not me. The most memorable scene where Adm. Yamamoto talks about awakening a sleeping giant and filling it with a terrible resolve pobably did not happen. He most likely felt that way, but many historians don't believe that he actually spoke those words. IMO it is still a great movie for history lovers.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
On the subject of war films, has anyone seen Downfall? That's the one about the last days of WWII, isn't it? Accurate? Entertaining? The German version of Hollywood crap? I've been wanting to see it for a while.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
Double Post.
I liked it, though it does do a too-good job of humanizing some dudes. A few of the people portrayed in the movie, like Mohnke, were real pricks to say the least, and Der Untergang makes them out to be better people than they were. Oh, and it kinda sanitizes what actually happened to the secretaries.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
But reasonably accurate besides that? After all, in a movie about the latter days of Nazi Germany, you're going to have to sanitize a few things, and humanise people. After all, there wasn't a great deal of humanity in the vast majority of them.
It seemed reasonably accurate besides that, yes.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
I'm gonna have to watch me some o' that, then.
Incidentally, having re-watched the film I mentioned earlier, Sink the Bismark, happens to be fairly accurate, except for the battle scenes, which are all wrong - except for the results - and the portrayal of the Admiral, who is made the villian of the film, a card-carrying Nazi. In actual fact, he was an outspoken opponent of the regime, and likely one of Canaris' men.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
Some parts of it were somewhat accurate. I don't think Cowpens unfolded quite how it was depicted, though.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
We watched part of this film in my German History class the other day. I thought it was so much better than another one we watched, The Grey Zone, if only in terms of German accents.
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