movin on up to Emperor

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

I'm making the jump to emperor.

Looking for critical feedback on the game so far.

Playing as Pericles, favorable map [to ease the transition], got a start with both stone, marble, and 2 corn. Surrounding countryside has favorable green tiles, pigs and corn abundant. Struggled with REX, I decided against rushing because of maintenance costs. I decided to focus primarily on my economy when I saw I was gonna be in a love-fest.

Anyways, I missed Confucianism by one turn, which I wanted to set about religious strife on my side of the world by spreading it to Zara, only to witness the endless stream of missionaries justinian sent knowing I'd have never kept up with his pace.

Missed the GL, by a couple of turns....the tech rate and wonder builds are very fast...

Missed Liberalism, it went at 1200AD!!! And consequently why I'm stuck. I was aiming for a steel slingshot, and although currently I have a great tech rate, because of the limited number of cities I've got, I know I'm peaking and will start to fall behind soon, I don't believe I can win this game without military expansion at this point, and I'm shrugging my shoulder in how to do that with a smaller, technologically backwards military, and my great military tech advantage just being wasted on some distant civ.

Attached are 3 saves, the virgin map, just prior to the BC-AD mark, and where I'm at now. Any advice is welcome.

 

[harry_flashman]

havent looked at your saves as im just about to pop out, i moved to emperor a couple of months ago and had a similar situation. decent tech rate that was about to be overtaken by rivals who had more land as i was isolated.

I found gandi who was all alone on a continent with a nicely cottaged empire and a small military. I built a big army, and conquered him. Then a few people declared on william of orange so i opportunistically declared on him myself, shipped my veterans over to his continent, cherry-picked his shrine cities and capitulated him.

so either look for good lands/weak military or jump in to an ongoing battle and pick up some super cities.

On the other hand you seem to have missed out on a lot of your goals. Playing as hannible i went for stonehenge which I got, oracle, lib and GLH which i didnt and lost from a reasonable starting position. Next game I looked at my situation more carefully and put all my energies into stonehenge and GLH - then an early rush, with all of them being sucessful. had to sacrifice a bit of expansion but won the game at an absolute canter.

I'd say the real change ive had to make in moving from monarch to emperor has been to plan a long term strategy based on the map and the civ im playing, and really narrow down my goals, but also making sure i acheive them. Going for something and then not getting it can really hurt at this level.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay. 30-40 science at 325bc isnt grand. Reasons for this are a small capital. Although i like the fact you have mids and representation. I normally aim for 100 science beakers by 1ad but 80 should be enough for lib grab! Usual philosophy, paper, edu, lib.

On the capital front 2 marble, 1 stone and 2 food is sickening over strong wonder wise!!!

You only had 5 cities. I might of rushed Aksum early to get rid of a pesky neighbour. Then you could of blocked Justin in. All that land!!!

Workers. You have have too few. 5 workers for 5 cities with all that forest and jungle. You wanted those 3 gems asap as thats almost 18 commerce. 7 cities is not impossible by 325bc. I suspect getting alphabet late didnt help.

I might play this game to 1200ad for a bit of a laugh. Then you can compare saves.

 

[Malician]

Someone on the other content is friggin' huge... 50% more GNP than you and 5x your production. Oi.

I don't like putting the Parthenon in my NE city because it pollutes the GP pool pretty heavily. Too many "Wooohoo here comes my Great Merchant! It'll bring me $2,000 and let me run 100% tech rate for 3 techs!" followed by "what the! BRITNEY SPEARS?"

You probably know this, but not enough cities and they're too far apart!

You can solve some of your health problems by trading with Justinian.

Barbarism and Paganism is great for when you want organic food, but can have their disadvantages. The extra gold from Athens (Bureaucracy) alone will make up for maintenance costs from organized religion AND Bureaucracy!

You can beg or trade for a bit of gold from both Zara and Justinian. Also good to turn off research until Oxford is done in this case. Markets don't help when building wealth.. forges do.

Used the GE to golden age and switch civics. Got 2100 gold from the Great Merchant (trade mission) and used it to blast forward with research. Got 2700 from the second by picking a better city to taret.

Map trading showed me a hut off in the tundra. I was hoping to get Railroad off it but I just got 54 gold =//

Invaded Zara, but he went from not having gunpowder to a giant force of rifles in only a turn or two!?! My cities descended into rioting and unhappiness as I waded through city after city. I was expecting that after I took his five or six best cities he'd capitulate, but I had to take 10-15. His empire was freakin' ridiculous!

Zara bribed an AI from another continent to come jack Knossos with anti-tank and artillery, but retaking it wasn't hard.

I'm now preparing for a war against the indominatable Other Continent. I only have 3 cities with ocean access and two of them suck so rather than just try to beat their navy I'm going to do nothing but build transports and hope some of them make it through.

On the + side I now have 1773 BPT and 1774 production.

Edit: Justinian voluntarily vassaled to me just as I was ready to go in. Operation was a dubious success: I traded 72 tanks for 5 cities. Was very very close to taking a capitol.. four more tanks would have done it. Seas are rife with chaos as Justinian, Zara and I compete with the other continent.

Was hoping I could get the main AI to drop a vassal but not quite enough damage.. plus they LOVE each other.

Edit: Won a 1962 domination victory. One AI launched a spaceship TWICE. Another was only one part away when I took its capitol. As the AIs kept rebuiding cities I started capturing them instead of razing them.. 50+ modern armors make a decent enough holding force.

I built 391 Modern Armors, had 228 by the end of the game, and lost 171. Also built 32 transports and 43 destroyers. End-game had 3044 MFG.. lots of cities & corps. Mining Inc pushed me through this with about 17 production per city.. for awhile I was worried due to 20+ war unhappiness, but it went away when I killed the appropriate civ.

Saves: 1350 AD = starting to rebuild empire. 1900 AD = about to attack other continent. 1960 = just before win. Note the number of cities.

 

[Gumbolt]

I started game from scratch. Didnt do a great job on the great people front due to dilution. I did manage to add 2 great spies, 1 great priest and 3-4 scientists to capital.

I could of taken lib around 1010ad. Waited for Civil service so i could grab nationalism. I am currently building Curs to attack a neighbour. I am missing a few techs like compass, feud, drama and others.

My city size is poor due to fact I got alphabet really late as i went aesthetic route.

 

[mi6agent]

Quick guide for jumping to Emp : Pick a financial leader. Remmember fog bursting and have 6-7 cities. Build cottage early . Tech Alpha then currency (remmerber connect trade road from ur civ to other civs) . Aim 100+ beaker at 1AD. Win , the Emperor AI just hopeless

 

[Inso]

^er...I think there's a bit more to it than that, emperor AI might be a pushover for you but not for many of us.

Just opened the initial save and that's one delicious start! Going to have to play it through with an epic wonderspam strategy

 

[Gumbolt]

^er...I think there's a bit more to it than that, emperor AI might be a pushover for you but not for many of us.

Just opened the initial save and that's one delicious start! Going to have to play it through with an epic wonderspam strategy

Spoiler :

I think best strategy is avoid wonders. That was my mistake. GS are more important than great spies or priests. Perhaps build parth in a second city while running 2 scientist in capital to grab alphabet and philosophy going aeth route for Glib. Then use GS to bulb lib before going for Curs.

 

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

some notes on how I played things out:
1. I have few cities because
i) I wonder spammed. great wall, myd's both cost me a lot in early hammers, and from a previous try, I knew if I wanted both, they'd have to be prioritized very early.
ii) I saw some prime locations, and went for the best available city spot regardless of distance.
iii) I did not rush. I am unfamiliar with the number of units the AI builds at this level, couple that with a fear of increased maintenance, I chose the peaceful expansion.

2. I put the parthenon in my capital simply because it was already building wonders, and to save me time, I rushed it with a GE.

3. My early research always pales in comparison to when my SE takes off. Usually the tradeoff for me is early investment in infrastructure to very strong mid-game research. Besides, at 1200, my research rate has recovered nicely [not the best I've had, but not shabby either].

4. I have never begged, no idea how to do it effectively. Up to this point in my play, I avoid it due to the natural disposition of the AI to dislike the human.

5. I have fewer workers because so far in my experience for SE driven science, you don't need as many. Improve food resources, put a couple mines down, and watch them grow. Yes, weed-whacking the jungle is important, but infrastructure like granaries, libraries etc are just as important, or you'll never get the vertical growth to support horizontal.

6. Horizontal growth is the biggest part of the problem, it would seem. I was having a really tough time managing my growth, wonder builds, and infrastructure.

Aside:
I started another game yesterday, Darius, with a much less ideal starting position, and I'm in the mid-19th century with victory assured. Abused HR and got a nice cycle of growth from population and settlements. Was surprised that I clearly out-expanded virtually everyone without sacrificing research. Clearly, wonders are a luxury at this level I'm not meant to have until I get a little more used to the level.

 

[Gumbolt]

some notes on how I played things out:
1. I have few cities because
i) I wonder spammed. great wall, myd's both cost me a lot in early hammers, and from a previous try, I knew if I wanted both, they'd have to be prioritized very early.
ii) I saw some prime locations, and went for the best available city spot regardless of distance.
iii) I did not rush. I am unfamiliar with the number of units the AI builds at this level, couple that with a fear of increased maintenance, I chose the peaceful expansion.

2. I put the parthenon in my capital simply because it was already building wonders, and to save me time, I rushed it with a GE.

3. My early research always pales in comparison to when my SE takes off. Usually the tradeoff for me is early investment in infrastructure to very strong mid-game research. Besides, at 1200, my research rate has recovered nicely [not the best I've had, but not shabby either].

4. I have never begged, no idea how to do it effectively. Up to this point in my play, I avoid it due to the natural disposition of the AI to dislike the human.

5. I have fewer workers because so far in my experience for SE driven science, you don't need as many. Improve food resources, put a couple mines down, and watch them grow. Yes, weed-whacking the jungle is important, but infrastructure like granaries, libraries etc are just as important, or you'll never get the vertical growth to support horizontal.

6. Horizontal growth is the biggest part of the problem, it would seem. I was having a really tough time managing my growth, wonder builds, and infrastructure.

Aside:
I started another game yesterday, Darius, with a much less ideal starting position, and I'm in the mid-19th century with victory assured. Abused HR and got a nice cycle of growth from population and settlements. Was surprised that I clearly out-expanded virtually everyone without sacrificing research. Clearly, wonders are a luxury at this level I'm not meant to have until I get a little more used to the level.

I wouldnt feel hard done by on this map. Both the Ai on your continent have room to expand to 13-15 cities.

I think Liberalism by 910ad is possible. I did have to beeline writing. I also got the event with seven libraries and the Glib which gave me a free scientist in Athens. This time round Athens is almost 90% GS. I did forget to build an academy.

On the other game I think rushing Justin was the way forward as he was not as strong.

 

[Malician]

some notes on how I played things out:
1. I have few cities because
i) I wonder spammed. great wall, myd's both cost me a lot in early hammers, and from a previous try, I knew if I wanted both, they'd have to be prioritized very early.
ii) I saw some prime locations, and went for the best available city spot regardless of distance.
iii) I did not rush. I am unfamiliar with the number of units the AI builds at this level, couple that with a fear of increased maintenance, I chose the peaceful expansion.

2. I put the parthenon in my capital simply because it was already building wonders, and to save me time, I rushed it with a GE.

3. My early research always pales in comparison to when my SE takes off. Usually the tradeoff for me is early investment in infrastructure to very strong mid-game research. Besides, at 1200, my research rate has recovered nicely [not the best I've had, but not shabby either].

4. I have never begged, no idea how to do it effectively. Up to this point in my play, I avoid it due to the natural disposition of the AI to dislike the human.

5. I have fewer workers because so far in my experience for SE driven science, you don't need as many. Improve food resources, put a couple mines down, and watch them grow. Yes, weed-whacking the jungle is important, but infrastructure like granaries, libraries etc are just as important, or you'll never get the vertical growth to support horizontal.

6. Horizontal growth is the biggest part of the problem, it would seem. I was having a really tough time managing my growth, wonder builds, and infrastructure.

Aside:
I started another game yesterday, Darius, with a much less ideal starting position, and I'm in the mid-19th century with victory assured. Abused HR and got a nice cycle of growth from population and settlements. Was surprised that I clearly out-expanded virtually everyone without sacrificing research. Clearly, wonders are a luxury at this level I'm not meant to have until I get a little more used to the level.

Ask AIs which are pleased or friendly for about $100-200 every 40 turns or so. They won't be unhappy with you, the gift counter just resets to 0 every time you ask whether it works or not.

What makes this map hard is that both Justinian and Zara expand ridiculously fast. It's also hard to declare war on one of them without getting the other pissed off at you.

One of the AIs on the other continent has an incredible starting position which means ridiculously early wonders.

 

[cabert]

If you don't fear a "reload and try it another way", I would suggest to go for a cultural run.
You can grab the most important wonders if you chop a bit, you have all the cathedral accelerators, and you're pericles.
If you manage a good GP farm, it should be pretty easy.

 

[Bei1052]

This advice comes from someone slowly learning to play emperor, so take it with a grain of salt.

1.) Why were you making a play for an early religion? Seeing as how Justinian in on your continent, he's most certainly likely to found a religion. Therefore, it's a lot easier to just let him found one, let him spread it to your cities, let him build the shrine and then steamroll him.

2.) Wonderspamming is okay, just so long as you're not building wonders just to build them. Given the land around you (To the south especially), you don't really need to build the GLH, as you shouldn't be building too many coastal cities anyway. Furthermore, I'm not a big fan of the pyramids. They're way too costly, and representation isn't exactly a game breaker. In the early game, you should really only be using scientists to fuel your tech rate while REX'ing (In other words, using them to keep a decent tech rate while your slier is at or close to zero), at which point you cash them in for cottages. I can't remember who said it, but scientists fuel your expansion while cottages pay for the maintenance. It's actually pretty good advice. But, I digress. Given that capital, I would say the one wonder you can't live without is the great wall. The AI rarely prioritizes it, and it'll allow you to expand without fear of barbs.

3.) There's some good land to the south. Make a run at it.

4.) I only glanced at your 325 BC save. I decided to try to play to the same part (Well, 300 BC). You can see what we did differently.

Spoiler :

The empire:





Seven cities with one (Hopefully two) more on the way by around 1 AD. As you can see, I pretty much boxed in Justinian (Kinda'). The only way he can get out is via galleys.

The demographics screen:



First in land area? Third in GNP? I'll take it. Sure, my tech rate is a bit low, but it doesn't matter what your tech rate is. I matters what your tech rate is compared to the other AI's. I rarely, if ever, get the fabled "100 BPT at 1 AD" thing.

The diplo screen:



Both Zara and Justinian are pleased with me, so I should be safe (I have no clue as to whether or not they BS).

Anyway, as you can see, I built the GW in my capital, meaning I only have to worry about barb galleys. As a bonus, I popped an early great spy, which I settled (I also popped a great scientist which I also settled in the capital). Not only is the +3 BPT pretty nice at this stage in the game, but he'll allow you to steal a few early techs from the AI. And speaking of which, I teched aesthetics with the hope that either of the AI's would tech alphabet (So I could build spies), but they're avoiding it like the plague . At this point, I've reached a crossroads. I can either make a run of polytheism to build the Parthenon, tech iron working, which would allow me to get that southern city online or manually research alphabet myself.

 

[Gumbolt]

I played it on to 1510. I skipped most of the techs like MC/feud/Guilds/banking etc.

Went for nationalism then used lib for military traditions.

Currently at war with Zara. Curs/cannons/ muskets vs knights/long bow and pike.

The AI is lagging a bit in tech up to 500/600 sciences beakers a turn. My capital is almost 100% great scientists. I did manage to MM and TM so my golden ages are 12 turns.

Overall I could probably use my tech lead for a space victory. Hmmm.

 

[Gumbolt]

A few thoughts on rushing a creative neighbour.

Spoiler :

Had a thought on rushing Zara. I played and I got HBR from a hut. I went in with 8 HA. Took all his 3 cities and a few workers. The biggest problem is he has Copper in his BFC.

Downside is Justin will never trade any techs. You get to about 4 cities and are left wondering how to recover the economy while Justin expands. On plus side you have ae philosophical leader and will have 4 strong cities.

I guess attacking justin might be an option.

The other big downside is barbs!!! Without the Great Wall you are constantly fending them off.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think the low sea setting is what makes this map tough. 6 Ai each expanding up to 15-16 cities. Even if you role over one neighbour the third will expand unless you fully block him/her off. Blocking off an imperialist Ai and a creative one is tough work.

I think the idea of grabbing the best citiy sites is not a bad one.

Oracle grab is possible on this map.

I am still undecided on bulbing vs adding to cities.

Issue with the early rush is barbs if you dont get the great wall.

Looks like you completed the game anyway. Still its interesting to play against an expanding AI. I can see why some players dont like low sea level maps.

 

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

I've got a few more questions after trying out a few more failed games after this one and what appears to be an abnormal thing....a win.

#1. Because the barbs are clearly so aggressive and quick to enter your borders, your second city should primarily be a military one [unless of course your capital is well suited to that task already], subsequent cities after that should be trying to drive your science. Early military is of critical importance or you won't last 100 turns. I heard somewhere that barbs on the upper levels wouldn't be as bad because of rapid expansion of the AI, and the excessive number of scouting units they have in the early game but I'm finding the opposite is true.

#2. I'm going to really have to abuse the whip at this level. I've always managed to do so pretty well before, but as it stand now, the extra unhappy faces are very difficult to manage and I'm finding myself hitting the caps really early and cracking the whip, but annihilating my own people leads to my next problem/question:

#3. Growth. It's difficult to expand if you're stuck with a ton of size small sized cities (3-4), as non are generating the wealth needed to fund more cities. That and research slows to a crawl as I'm trying to get to a critical economic tech, I find myself building a ton of workers as I've got nothing else to build [militarily I'm ok by this point]. So I've got a ton of workers, more than is necessary, all my land improved from sheer boredom, even roads built to future city cites and cleared jungle with settlers and future city garrisons waiting to expand. So what for a classic cottage run economy is the critical of the early economic techs to research?

CoL: has always been the staple for me, but it's expensive, courthouses are very expensive improvements and I find myself slashing and burning both population and forests alike to pay for them when they come about.

Alphabet: offers building of research, which can be a stopgap to assist in the research of other economic techs and it opens up tech trading. The problems are, for research building to be effective, I've gotta switch over my high hammer yield cities, which takes away my ability to replace those critical fog busting units and I'm stuck watching an endless stream of archers marching towards my cities. Further, at this point, the only trade bait I have would probably be the alphabet tech itself, and worse, the AI likes to prioritize it.

Monarchy : allows to bump the happiness caps with military units. Meaning, more worked cottages, and greater wealth, but it takes time for those cottages to get up and running. I've only played financial civs at this point, and I shudder to think at the loss of that extra commerce on those riverside tiles. Problem with monarchy is that it takes time for those cottages to grow, it's a great long-term strategy, but my growth will still be slow without matured [or simply more mature] cottages.

 

[Lansky]

When you have enough practice that you can handle barbs with just warriors Emperor will sunddenly be a lot easier. I'm so used to Immortal+ barbs now that Emp barbs seem to be lethargic. This transition will take some time for you, but is quite important for a comfortable early game.

Currency is a much better early game economic tech than CoL unless you are an organized leader.

A common tech line for me is researching Aes and then partially researching Alpha and Monarchy if needed and then swapping for them. At emperor the Aesthetics trading chip finally starts to make sense as if you know 3+ AI's one of them will get Alpha before you... usually... hah

 

[StrategeryBush]

A common tech line for me is researching Aes and then partially researching Alpha and Monarchy if needed and then swapping for them. At emperor the Aesthetics trading chip finally starts to make sense as if you know 3+ AI's one of them will get Alpha before you... usually... hah

If the AI don't get Alphabet before you finish aesthetics I often go ahead and tech Alpha all the way out. Having both before the AIs gives you a lot of trading power and a good deal of brokering power as well.

 

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

good, this is great, thanks, I would have never thought about teching something just for the trade bait, I'm so used to focusing only on my own research for my own goals.