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Moving forward: Rhye's Legacy of Civilization - proposal

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Baldyr, Aug 15, 2010.

  1. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    So the new version of Civilization is just around the corner and I trust most of the folks around these parts are looking to get into that - perhaps to never look back at CivIV. But I sincerely hope that the RFC community will keep thriving - at least once the initial allure of all things new and shiny wears off.

    While making a Rise-and-Fall mod like the one Rhye did for Civ4 (and also for Civ3) for Civ5 is a real possibility - someone just has to do it - this is not what this thread is about. I would instead wanna share with you my own vision for the future - of RFC for CivIV.

    Rhye has officially retired from CivIV modding leaving a final version of RFC for the community to enjoy. And embryodead has answered many-a-prayer for a Marathon speed implementation of the mod - also available in a finished version. My first proposition is that any further development or work put into RFC should be done to the RFC Epic/Marathon version of the mod, because it includes everything that Rhye's official version does and only adds new game speed options and speed enhancements. Because I don't think anyone in their right mind would wanna be without either feature.

    Also, I believe there are already some bugs and other things that needs fixing in the "final" RFC version, some of which might already be fixed with the Marathon version. But new issues may arise with time that needs to be dealt with, and AFAIK embryodead hasn't committed to update his version for the rest of eternity. So I do think that the community should strive for compiling fixes into unofficial patches of sorts, preferably in a ordered manner so that one fix doesn't exclude another.

    Fixes aside, the source code for RFC could be made more accessible for modders. Because I think that the core of the RFC community is the mod-modders and scenario makers, rather than the fans who only wanna play the official patch in order to complete UHVs or whatever. I guess these players will be the first to move over to Civ5 completely and also be less inclined to participate in any community efforts going forward.

    So by pulling together and encouraging mod-modding we can strengthen this community of ours. My own contribution would be the PyScenario application that allows for easy scenario making using some of the power offered by CivIV Python. By reworking the source-code into a more accessible setup it will also be possible to add more functionality to PyScenario - as well as offer better entry points for modding for those who dare take the plunge into programming. (If I ever get the time I will probably be writing a comprehensive guide to mod-modding RFC. And then the entire community could be hacking into the code! If...)

    So what I propose - and I believe this is originally embryodead's idea - is that we have our sights on our very own "community version" of RFC in the near future. My proposed title would then be "Rhye's Legacy of Civilization" in celebration of the community member who started the whole thing. :king:

    The idea would be to keep true to the core design principle of Rhye - that RFC should basically play as an Earth Map scenario with the addition of historical spawn dates, rise-and-fall and the new victory condition - but not become a complete re-envisioning of Civilization as a game. So we wouldn't be looking to change how the mod plays, what contents are there in regard to Civs, units, wonders and so on - or to add historical "events" as such (like the Conquistadors already present). Instead, the focus would be on fixing any issues and improving the underlaying source code. With the aim of promoting mod-modding and scenario making with RLC as a basis. Well, creativity, debate and participation in general.

    I do of course realize that we all have our pet pee-wees and new features we'd like to add (I know I have), but thats for everyone to mod-mod themselves! So we could have a multitude of mod-components coming out where everyone would be able to pick those parts that they wanna add to their own private game or scenario. Because trying to force your own ideas of how RFC could or should play will never work, and the ensuing arguments would only serve to rip this community apart. So I think the best approach is to simply not be open to changes in the mod, period.

    Assuming that we can agree on the fundamentals of how to move forward - and the discussion hasn't even started yet - there is one vital piece missing. Namely someone to step into Rhye's shoes and take point on this thing. We'll just have to see if anyone steps up to the plate!

    What do the rest of you think about the future of RFC? Should we move forward with Rhye's Legacy of Civilization once the dust settles in the aftermath of Civ5? Who feels comfortable with keeping all of the code in check and leading development?
     
  2. SalmonSoil

    SalmonSoil Prince

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    I am liking the idea of picking my own selection of mod-mods and easily combining them all into a beautiful beautiful creature.
     
  3. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Yeah, but firstly there would have to be a wide selection of these mod-components all designed for the same version of the mod. And there would probably also be some easy way of importing these mod-mods in a modular fashion. All this requires that everybody is working within the same framework.
     
  4. LuKo

    LuKo The Royal Guard

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    Main problem: RFC is not the only "original" RFC. There is RFC RAND and RFC MP as well. While I'm a great fan of RFC the fact is that RFC MP made me come back to community. It would be great if Legacy combine all of "original" version into one. But it's insane amount of work, for skilled modders- only.

    Generally I like the idea of Legacy but I'm not very optimistic.
     
  5. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Rand might be impossible to merge - but I wouldn't know for sure - but I don't see why MP can't be built into it also? :confused: I guessing there is a good reason for this, however...
     
  6. LuKo

    LuKo The Royal Guard

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    I would say RAND is easier to merge... MP have a lot of features disabled.
     
  7. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    I was under the impression that RAND is very much another mod altogether. The stuff in MP that needs to be switched off, like Congresses, would be easy enough to disable with some code that checks whether or not its a multiplayer session or not. Or so I'd imagine...
     
  8. nody

    nody Emperor

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    This looks like the longest first post on a thread EVER.

    But to comment on your proposal:

    What would you suggest?

    Some suggestions from me:

    - 1 extra unique power per civilization (see my (somewhat old) thread)
    - New types of victories: like colonial victory (control a lot of civs or have a lot of colonies to win)
    - Adding of/replacement with new resources: what about chickens instead of pigs in East Asia? And how about pearls? (sea-version of silk/dye)
     
  9. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Well, your reply is a testament for you not reading it. :rolleyes: And did you just ask me to repeat myself? :eek:

    Other than that, your approach is - as usual - the exact opposite of mine. But if that is the direction in which the community wants to move with RFC, then so be it. Until then I'll just regard your proposal as a mod-mod idea.
     
  10. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Emperor

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    #1 would be good for civs like Germany, who don't get their bonus for over 1000 years, or the Mayans, whose bonus actually helps them get rid of it faster.

    #2: Meh. Too easy.

    #3: Chickens and pearls sound good. And maybe salt. (With a large deposit in North America to encourage expansion there)
     
  11. Wessel V1

    Wessel V1 Emperor

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    I would not want anything 'added' to be honest. More resources, more civs, more stuff, it all means RFC (or RLC) will move towards RoM, which is in my opinion THE example of a mod that represents quantity, whereas RFC presents quality. It is actually said in the game itself, when you discover Engineering. Therefore, I think we should abstain from going the direction that too much stuff is added, but rather stay to RFC's basics. On the other hand, I think that an extra set of UHVs is a nice addition.

    EDIT: It seems that we agree on this one!:D
     
  12. StuartKleinsen

    StuartKleinsen Chieftain

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    If there's anything I can do for 'lifting' RFC to the next level I would be pleased to help.
     
  13. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    This pretty much sums up my own proposal, in case someone thought it was too lengthy to deserve a read. But mostly because we as a community would never be able to agree on any actual changes, so some people would always feel disenfranchised and not wanna be a part of any of it. So there would be all these alternate version with different features in them - total breakdown.

    That would be a mod-mod or a mod-component then. It could be done in a modular fashion so that those who want it can add it themselves. But it wouldn't change the mod as such - and there would be nothing to disagree over.

    If someone compiles a complete list over all new UHVs such a mod-mod would actually be possible. There are several people fluent in Python in this community, but don't expect someone else to do both the design work and the coding for you! So get to work - this is a time for action, not just endless debate!

    Also, more people could actually take the time to learn something as easy as Python. I mean, c'mon! We're basically a community of game designers here and people don't even wanna learn how to do things for themselves. :rolleyes:

    What? Where? More UHVs?
     
  14. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    I'm kinda thinking that RFC belongs to the community now, to the mod-modders, to us. So what sort of "lift" are you envisioning then?

    Are you for adding tons of new content to the mod - or to make it easier to mod so that more people can join in and make their own mod-mods?
     
  15. nody

    nody Emperor

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    It will be a mod-mod anyhow, but a mod-mod made and supported by most of the community.

    You just need to take some polls about certain suggestions and see what gets the most support and add those things to this mod-mod called Rhye's Legacy of Civilization.
     
  16. StuartKleinsen

    StuartKleinsen Chieftain

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    I don't want to add anything like new civs, wonders, units or stuff like that. Well, not now.
    All I could do would be testing, debating and historical research. I'm not that keen on going into coding.
    Spoiler :
    Changing Arabia's UP building to temple and monastery doesn't count, or? ;)
     
  17. Wessel V1

    Wessel V1 Emperor

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    For a modular component, I'd say yes. It's one of the things that can be added as an option, so why not if there are people who like to?

    Nope, on the 'be careful not to add too much at once'-thingy.
     
  18. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    I'm not so sure... :p
     
  19. Crossphazer

    Crossphazer King

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    What I think we should all do is the following:
    While we do not agree on what to add, I think we should work together on various components to make everyone's modding easier, much like Baldyr's PyScenario. Then, these various components could be merged into one mod and made compatible, and one could chose which components to activate based on his or her preferences.
     
  20. deanej

    deanej Deity

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    I agree that this should be bug fixes and improving the code. If you want more features, make a modmod.

    MP should be easy to merge - simply detect in python/the SDK if the game is MP or not and enable/disable features as appropriate. RAND might be more complicated but a similar process could be done to detect if it's a scenario or not (there already is a function that does this but you might need to use a workaround, such as adding a hidden gameoption or ScriptData).
     

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