Moving from Emperor to Immortal

[Major Tom]

Ready to move up a level. Hope it will not involve timeconsuming micro. Anyway, here is the game using the Play Now button:

The settings:

Spoiler :

The deal:

Spoiler :

Spiritual personality, Stone, Mysticism, Beavers and Camel Archers on the tundra. I smell religion, espionage, culture and diplomatic opportunities. Seems that anything can happen here. But first there are settling issues to be solved.

Will start up game during or just over the weekend. Any thoughts and play-alongs are welcome.

The start save:
View attachment Mortal game BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Rusten]

Lykke til!

Tundra on fractal is a bad sign -- could mean isolation. But at least it's not a coastal capital which reduces the chance.

Fortunate leader roll. One can argue on and on about which traits are best, but spiritual is so much fun to play so it's always a good choice.

 

[Major Tom]

Takk, Rusten!

Cranking out another settler, then an early The Great Wall for peace and quiet from barbs, and Great Spies points. And then the map is under control Perhaps not the most sane approach. If isolation, there is always culture and diplomacy to play on. I hope.

Hmm, this start needs some more thinking.

Btw, dont know what happened to inserted images.

 

[Major Tom]

Could not resist doing the initial session. 4000BC to 2120 BC (T47).

Spoiler :

SIP will lack food. Blue circle at coast probably meant seafood, but still too mutch brown tiles and besides, fishing techs not high priority. Moved warrior 1 NW looking for green rivertiles. Yes! Floodplains. Settler followed and settled 1N of stones.

Worker&Agri. Then masonry for stones and cheap mining. Then BW. BW at 2320. 2280 Medina was up. 2 south of wheat and 1 w of beavers. The barb archers was really annoying and could not resist building TGW. Let Joao and Charley deal with them. Joey and Charley shall eventually also deal with a ton of espionage points, thx to TGW. 1 pop whip for the TGW at 2120BC.

No bronze in sight. AH? (Pottery and writing looks sensible but probably abandoning Oracle). Have to choose fishing for silver city or AH for horses and cattle.

Interesting decisions. Probably finished thinking by Sunday.

Btw, how do you guys deal with all the early barbs on immortal+ ?

 

[Pangaea]

Settler on plains hill, and corn and stone is very nice, but there's also a lot of brown land. Therefore I'm glad to read you found something better.

Barbs can be an issue, especially if you are close to large icy areas, as they will spawn there en mass, given the lack of AI cities in the area helping you spawn bust. But mostly it's okay to space out some warriors in good spots. On the higher levels, the AI also found cities faster, so that helps counteract the faster barbs a bit.

Lykke til

 

[Major Tom]

Thanks, Pangea. Good to have you stopping by, too. Was not aware of the ice-barb issue. But not sure what is worst: 2 IMP AI or barbs all over the shop.

 

[Anysense]

On large maps I sometimes had to travel 10+ tiles away from the capital to find something green. But on a map of standard size ice/tundra area should not be more than ~5 tiles wide. Since we happened to be spiritual and also got stone and decent commerce thanks to river and furs, I would consider building mids.
There are lots of forests too, look like a good start unless an isolated one, then mids will be even more important. At least one can get awesome early failgold.

 

[Major Tom]

The Mids. Great Idea, Anysense. A great booster. Now more pondering. Will we survive in the meantime?

 

[Anysense]

Dunno, barbs from a hut killed my warrior
What is the chance of such event on immortal? I haven't been playing with huts for ages, they only help AI on higher difficulties.

 

[Major Tom]

Dunno, barbs from a hut killed my warrior
What is the chance of such event on immortal?

According to Robert Cebulas great reference book http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6571
it is 35% to pop barbs (15% weak + 20% strong).

Thank god I popped 44 gold, but suffered -1 diplo to Joao due to a dirty old ambassador in another random event.

 

[Major Tom]

Have played 10-15 more turns and this is getting hard.

Joao is teching superfast (early alpha and IW) and expanding into good spots near my borders. I chose Pottery, AH (for horses, no bronze) and hunting for commerce. Now at another crossroad techwise. I buildt a worker and a settler to get those horses and cattle.

Pyramids or development? I think development. With representation can hardly get pleased with Joao (favourite civ is HR). Pyramids also requiers a few specialists, but i think whip is more useful.

What do you think: Mids or cities&troops?

 

[Anysense]

I think that you need to expand to at least 3 cities anyway. Otherwise you may cede way too much land. That awesome spot north of the capital should be a first priority. Since this is immortal there is a chance seize it.
Building mids will require mining and BW. Because you have researched AH and pottery teching to BW will be way too big detour, so I think its better to forget about mids.
Also I would urge you to post screenshots or/and save.

 

[sampsa]

Also I would urge you to post screenshots or/and save.

This.

 

[Major Tom]

Right. Here is the latest save 1520BC:
3rd settler heading for horses.

View attachment 405624

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=405625&stc=1&d=1458395119

Thanks for interest. Any comments welcome.

 

[Major Tom]

I think that you need to expand to at least 3 cities anyway. Otherwise you may cede way too much land. That awesome spot north of the capital should be a first priority. Since this is immortal there is a chance seize it.
Building mids will require mining and BW. Because you have researched AH and pottery teching to BW will be way too big detour, so I think its better to forget about mids.
Also I would urge you to post screenshots or/and save.

Check out spoiler in 4th post about BW.

 

[Anysense]

Now I understand what happened. You selfteched too much and expanded very slow. Usually I seek to found 3rd city by 2000 BC and 5th one by 1000. TGW has one significant flaw - it doesn't deter barbs from spawning cities. This is one of the main reasons why I never build it. In this particular game a few extra warriors could solve the problem with barbs through spawnbust.
DON'T PANIC. Although you are bit backward, the game is fixable. You are fine so long as you can settle at least 5 healthy cities. Absolutely forget about mids. Build a couple more warriors to spawn bust east and 2 more settlers. That would be good to settle more cities but you have to minimize maintenance. Also those extra cities will need monuments and fishing to become usefull. While your first cities must be the ones that become usefull almost instantly.
I think that 1E from the mark is a better choice because both recources will be in the 1st ring. Then the capital needs a helper city. 3E2N from the capital does not look very good but I don't see anything better. This is the result of misplacing the 2nd city which should have grabbed corn, cows and FP north of the capital.
edit: Medina is a bit mismanaged. It does not need granary right now. Currently the most important things are workers and settlers.
Connect to Joao for foreign traderouts. You need to build just one road on a tile next to cow (he will hook up cows so you don't need to waste worker turns).

 

[Major Tom]

Now I understand what happened. You selfteched too much and expanded very slow. Usually I seek to found 3rd city by 2000 BC and 5th one by 1000. TGW has one significant flaw - it doesn't deter barbs from spawning cities. This is one of the main reasons why I never build it. In this particular game a few extra warriors could solve the problem with barbs through spawnbust.
DON'T PANIC. Although you are bit backward, the game is fixable. You are fine so long as you can settle at least 5 healthy cities. Absolutely forget about mids. Build a couple more warriors to spawn bust east and 2 more settlers. That would be good to settle more cities but you have to minimize maintenance. Also those extra cities will need monuments and fishing to become usefull. While your first cities must be the ones that become usefull almost instantly.
I think that 1E from the mark is a better choice because both recources will be in the 1st ring. Then the capital needs a helper city. 3E2N from the capital does not look very good but I don't see anything better. This is the result of misplacing the 2nd city which should have grabbed corn, cows and FP north of the capital.
edit: Medina is a bit mismanaged. It does not need granary right now. Currently the most important things are workers and settlers.
Connect to Joao for foreign traderouts. You need to build just one road on a tile next to cow (he will hook up cows so you don't need to waste worker turns).

Thanks for comments, Anysense. Appreciate it.
Agree, Mids are too late. Will get up cities. Have never used helpercities. Always gone for fat spots, strategic resources or pure blocking. About time to try it out. Place them in a way that channels barbs toward Joao, along with sustainability.
But barb cities is not that bad? Free captures later on.

Think Teching writing, alpha. Then build spies. Great Spy due not to distant future to infiltrate.
Perhaps detour fishing if needed. And archery to get those protective archers ready. No red fist yet from Joao.

What effect do walls in my cities have for Joaos war attack probability? Effectly setting them to almost zero (assuming protective archers)?

 

[sampsa]

Dang, can't open the save. What Anysense says makes a lot of sense though - early game is about cities and workers. I wouldn't build GW to prevent barbarian mayhem, barring some extreme settings like deity/marathon, but to gain points for stealing techs.

Building walls doesn't prevent him going for war prep, it just helps if he does so. Pre-constructions attacks are very easy to fend off by walls+prot archers though and him suiciding troops against your walled cities gives you GG-points for no diplo penalty.

 

[Major Tom]

Builded a helper city 3E2N but Joao then snatched the horses before the eyes of my 4th settler. Anyway, the Great Spy was a gamechanger. Could (and still can) steal monopoly techs and trade with others to backfill.

25 AD: Q: Develop what I got or attack Joaos eastern settlements?

Spoiler :

Got 6 cities who needs improvements. Newly captured Najran got horses. But still, Joaos estern settlements are annoying. Can build War Elephants thanks with imported elephants. Another downside with war is that it will cut me off from foreign traderoutes.

The save 25 AD (mod:Better BUG AI)

View attachment Mortal Game 25AD.CivBeyondSwordSave


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Q&A so far (and own notes):

1. Cities before Wonders. Benchmark: 5 cities by 1000BC.
2. Dont self tech too much. (Straight to BW may not be worth it if there are no bronze).
3. Pyramids too late by 1520BC.
4. Great Spy from the Great Wall may be a gamechanger.

 

[Anysense]

I think you are not in the best position for teching. You could block east with that horse+cow city. Luckily you got ivory. Elephants give you an edge for a short period, exploit it until AIs reached engineering. There is fairly enough time to take at least 5 cities, then probably cease fire and finish Joao later with maces. It is definitely possible to kill him then with more than 15 cities you will already be very strong.

Teching at 50% is suboptimal. The main flaw of such approach is that you take decision too early and a few turns later it may turn out a bad decision. Set slider to 100% when you have enough gold to complete research or to 0% to accumulate gold.
What to research. You need techs which AI is unlikely to research (e.g. aesthetics, drama) and trade them.

City management. Baghdad is working silver but in my opinion iron is a much stronger tile, i.e. and are more important than .
Najran does not need madrassa. I assume that you choped the only forest in madrassa. Najran hase been slowbuilding it for 22 turns and will be able to 1 pop whip in 4 turns. then it wiil take 3 more turns to pop up borders. Choping monument was much better. It would take just 11 turns start working fish. Simple math (22+4+3)-11=18. So monument wins with tremendous 18 turns margin.
edit: added a few more notes.
Medina apparently does not need barracks, it won't produce enough units to justify barracks. Usually barracks are not worth being built early without aggressive trait.
Mecca should not hire scientists. I would task Medina with it. Because 1) no gp pollution; 2) Mecca is free to work more cottages; 3) I believe Medina could do it earlier.