Moving up indifficulty-advise? maps?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by splunge the 2nd, May 20, 2008.

  1. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Thanks for the encouragement!
    It's not a question of whether to road/improve, explore, build up defense, build the resources for a stronger military later (barracks) and expand, it's a question of when and which first!
    On a side note, I understand the AI likes to beat on you if you're milatarily weak and I read the article on how the AI decides how strong you are. Does anyone know if the regular/veteran/elite status of your forces matters when the AI decides to fear you or attack?
     
  2. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

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    Hold on to your 400BC start in games that you may post as sometimes it is more illustrative to parallel the game.

    Moving the capitol is not a killer, but you need a good reason to set yourself back. Moving to a river is a good reason. Even more the case as you could move onto a desert tile that would be low in value otherwise and save the plain tile.

    I am fine with minimal infrastructure, but you want to get some in key place, such as the capitol as soon as you can.

    To that end, if would be very careful about getting into a war so early. That is best done at emperor or better by experienced players. It can cripple you, even when you win. The main things are, do I gain from it and can I win it quickly? Win means either eliminate them or they give you peace for something.

    Granaries are fine, but you need to be careful about them IMO. If you are playing below Emperor, you can fude things a bit, more if you are familiar with the game.

    The thing is that you have to A) have Pottery, B) spend the time to build it.
    So does it makes sense in this town at this time? If so, go for it. I would be very cautious about making them in more than 2 or 3 towns early in the game.

    Barracks are the same, but can be more critical. So my first question is, will I be making troops here? If not, I do not need one. In a normal game, you probably do not need many. A few in the core for troops and in conflict locations, that is enough. If always war, then you need them nearly every place, that is not making cats.

    Do not worry about happiness. Up the lux, if you have to make a scientist. Pop out a worker is another way. Later get more lux and a market.

    Do be careful about getting too friendly with the AI. MPP and RoP and other deals need to be justified. otherwise they will come back to bite you.

    Understand that if you are growing and getting stronger, they will not be your friend for long. Good luck.
     
  3. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Here's my most current Dutch save, submitted for your review-I think I may be learning. View attachment 177851
     
  4. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    I had a look, it's always interesting to look at saves. I see way more positives than negatives. I would have put my cities different, but you're going very strong in this game.

    - You've expanded well, and pulled off a successful Republic slingshot. It's a bit more easy to pull off on an Archipelago anyway, because the AI is handicapped in early tech trading on those maps, but still: well done!

    - Excellent Curragh exploration!

    - Two lux already hooked up, Gems almost and one of your settlers is eyeing the Incence; going great on that front! Happiness should not be a problem. Remember that once you've got 3 lux, marketplaces are becoming a really interesting build in your bigger cities to strengthen the happiness effect of those luxuries.

    - Iron and Horses nearby, with no competion in sight. I think I would have made the same choice as you, and head for the Gems and Incence first. Those strategic resources will be yours anyway, but Scandanivia isn't too far away from those lux. I think you were realising that.

    You have no worries. It's basically an overpowered start position, this one. Ok, I'll do some nitpicking;

    - You've placed your cities carelessly, missing out on benefits. Look at Groningen and the Hague; their positioning illustrates best my point. You've got a strip of land there, with the big sea on one side and a sweet water lake on the other. The strip of land is 6 tiles wide. That means you can put both towns coastal and still be working every single land tile in between. Benefits: A coastal position for Groningen means it can work seatiles, and a coastal position for the Hague means it will not need an aquaduct to reach city size. Try to prevent putting your cities 1 tile from the coast, because that really sucks.

    - Settler factories need graneries. This goes for Amsterdam, and you will want to identify another settler factory somewhere east. You've still got a lot of land to settle on, some of that land is tundra; not very food rich. You'll want a few graneries in your food fich area to help your expansion.

    - Micro management. The higher the difficulty level, the more important micro management becomes. Especially in the early game; check your cities every single turn and swap production between tiles to prevent waste. And watch your lux slider; again a waste thing. Putting it higher than needed wastes money, money that you'll need for upgrading units and research.
     
  5. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Thanks for the critique. I really did luck out on my start position. It was my first map randomly picked!

    Guilty as charged! I'm regretting the placement you noted. How can you tell fresh from salt? I thought that inland lake was the sea shore (I was settling before I'd well explored)

    Is a granary an early priority? I was trying to expand quickly and postponed it indefinately.

    Add micromanagement to a skill I have yet to acquire. When facing a production overrun, do you switch citizens to different tiles, change production goal, switch citizens to scientists/taxmen, all of the above?

    Since posting that save, I've picked up the 2 luxes, put a city by the horsies and iron on the east side of the lake (I think I missed the coast again-drat), abandoned Amsterdam and resettled it for the palace jump, positioned some spears at the hills/mountains on the border with Vikings to kep settlers out of my eastern subcontinent, dealt some techs and am building up cash with single scientist reesearch (Whew)

    I'm toying with declaring on the zulus and getting the vikings to sign on and letting them knock each other down.
     
  6. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    The easy way is to right-click a water tile that does not contain a bonus. Fresh water gives 2 food. Salt gives 1.

    Depends on what I need. Some overrun is unavoidable. I don't usually switch citizens to specialists on the last turn of a build, but do sometimes try to pick up an extra food or coin here and there by switching tiles. Just depends on what I need at the moment. Then again, there are far better MM'ers than myself who may disagree.

    Sounds like you've been busy. :goodjob:
     
  7. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    Fresh/salt water: Any water less than 20 tiles big is fresh water. It can even have a sea tile with a Whale darting in it, if it's not 20 tiles big, it's not salt. But as soon as you see water, click on it, so that you know what you're dealing with.

    Early settlement plan: Survey your surroundings, acquire terrain knowledge, turn the grid on to see what the best spots for cities are. See a city as a big fat x. Make a little plan before sending out your settlers.

    Micro management: To minimise overrun, you will mainly swap citizens between tiles and adjust your worker actions. And plan ahead. Adjust your production between different types of military units if you wish, but stick to your basic build plans.

    Graneries: The bigger the terrain to settle, the more useful they are. Different ideas exist about what the best timing is to build them. Straight away, or after the first settler, or after a first core. It's all done, depending on the situation. I wouldn't go later than after having built a rudimentary first core.
     
  8. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    One of the builds I don't start is the granary. I wait until I see how big the city will get before I decide to build one.

    I used to always (need to) build the Pyramids but I have been letting that go. Since I was not in the habit of building granaries I tend to forget them altogether.

    Unless something very notable happens... my first four builds are : warrior, warrior, barracks and settler. The barracks timing alway seems to get my settler just at the right (growth of city) time.

    -> considering this order, where would you put a granary build?

    What about where you Capitol is not really going to be a great producer? (What you see when you place that first city is not always indicative of its value as you learn more about the land.)
     
  9. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    I often make a decision between a granery or a barracks. Mostly it'll be a granery. But after the first three warriors or so it's often a settler first with me.
    If there are a couple of nice city spots around, perhaps with some food, I tend to postpone the granery until I've got those settled.

    By the way, Darski, a city without a granery has just as much growing potential, but it'll just take longer. Recovering from a drop in population - you've just built a settler - will go quicker for a city with a granery, because it's only half a foodbox that needs to be filled up every time to regain a citizen.
    For a town below size 7 you need 20 food to gain a citizen.
    The same town will only need 10 food to gain a citizen when it has a granery.
    That's why players build a granery in towns they're planning to build a lot of workers and settlers. In towns where you plan to concentrate your unit building you will normally not build a granery.
     
  10. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    I think every Civ can build a Barracks from the beginning and I can't always build a granary at the start. I prefer to have stronger units to defend my empire while a granary/settlers are being built.

    I believe the Vet units are the defining condition in wars.
     
  11. MAS

    MAS Deity

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    Barracks -> settler, or
    barracks ->worker
    sounds like a bad barracks timing to me. I'd rather build:
    warrior(x3) -> setter, or
    warrior(x3) -> granary -> settler

    I know the power of vet units, but I'm not afraid to build a dozen of regular warriors at the start of the game, unless I'm really cramped and will go to war soon.

    I do often use barracks as prebuild while researching pottery.
     
  12. anaxagoras

    anaxagoras King

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    If you are going to build a granary, it is generally best to build it as soon as possible. A granary delays the production of settlers in a city, but after the delay, it makes the production of them faster. You generally don't reach the break-even point until you get 5 or 6 settlers down the road. Unless it is one of the earlier builds you do, it will be a close call whether or not the REX phase in a typical Emperor-or-better game lasts long enough for you to come out ahead. Othniel did a detailed analysis of the precise time lines, but I'm too lazy to look up the thread. The take-home message was pretty clear, though: From the point of view of expansion, if you don't build a granary early, it is not worth it.

    Sometimes, if there is a food-rich location nearby but no food bonus (or not much) in the capital, it is best to build the settler first, then build the granary as the first build in the second city. But anything past that, and a granary does not help you expand your empire.

    Of course, ganaries also help with producing workers, so you have to factor that in, as well. It is often helpful for quite some time to have a city who primary purpose is to crank out workers. Even considering the worker pump, however, it is usually a waste of shields building more than two or three granaries in a few food-rich locations in your entire empire. The Pyramids are nice to capture, but I don't even consider building them from scratch.
     
  13. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    I will build the Pyramids, but only with a Scientific Great Leader. Otherwise, some strategically located granaries for settler and worker pumps are the only granaries I build. If you can grab the Pyramids, your civ somewhat gains the Agricultural trait and you get rocket fuel growth. If you can grab the ToA, you get even more rocket fuel.
     
  14. anaxagoras

    anaxagoras King

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    Yes, that can be OK, but the SGL has to be really early, and even then has to be balanced against what else is available. On an archi map, for instance, my SGL gets saved for the Lighthouse. If you have literature, the GL can start you speeding towards a culture or space win. If you have ivory, math, and frisky neighbors, getting the SoZ instantly can really help (though I will grant you, things would have to be pretty tight for me to consider using a SGL to get what amounts to 5 or 6 extra AC).

    The Pyramids are useful if you can build them early and instantly, but for me, at least, even that is not a no-brainer.
     
  15. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    I did get an SGL in my game at the time I won the Philo slingshot (Republic) and before I had even considered building the pyramids.

    I finished my (1 turn) JT then switched immediately to the Pyramids. With Sumeria on my map I needed to keep it from them. But that just goes back to my wonder addiction. No Pyramids = no granaries for me. :lol:
     
  16. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    On a continents or pangea map, the Pyramids are huge. If I get an SGL and they're available, it is almost a no-brainer. If I were on an archipelago map, it'd be a different story. And darski's got a point: The Pyramids are not only very powerful in my favor, but I really hate it when an agri civ gets ahold of them.
     

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