We don't need to give Cav Hunting, let MS give them that.
I also have no problem giving them writing and AH on turn 1 in exchange for just Med and then getting PH next turn for nothing.
If we wait until Cav get Monarchy before giving them Alpha that will also delay us getting Poly back, but it's no use to us now anyway.
In my view anything that helps our allies now helps us, so I think we should just give our techs as soon as we get them. And they give us their techs as soon as they get theirs.
Well I think we should give them Hunting as this is in our treaty. Plus, the more stuff WE give them the more they are in OUR debt (the more leverage we have in any shape or form the better).
I'm alright with giving techs early as long as there is a specific agreement (like the current treaty) for us to get something of equal value in return down the road. Our communications with Cav and MS should constantly emphasize friendly relations and cooperation and fairness.
We aren't in a permanent alliance after all. Think Yalta.
Cav have finally passed on their correspondence with MS:
Here's our email conversations with MS:
Quote:
Team Cav said:
Dear Mad Ones,
we look forward to your reply to our proposal, and are eager to start
negotiating the details of our alliance. In the mean time, we bring
you word from our other friends, who wished to send their greetings.
Please find attached a papyrus scroll straight from the proud people
of Kazakhstan.
In friendship,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros
Spoiler:
Greetings Mad Scientists!
Our good friends the Cavaleiros have brought word to us of their
meeting with you. We look forward to the day when we can communicate
directly but for now our Cavaleiros friends have agreed to handle
communications between us. Please send any replies you have through
them.
We do hope to be friends with you and that you will be friends with
the Cavaleiros. There is much to be gained by the three of us
cooperating, especially in the area of knowledge and information. We
hope to be able to discuss specifics soon.
Principe Perfeito, we share your vision for the Future! We Mad Scientists are ready to join The Cause, enriching the Three Noble Nations: Mad Scientists, Kazakhstan, and Os Cavaleiros. We will do our part to bring a much-needed boost to our combined status in the world. Is there a formal document we should affix our seal to?... if so, please send it on over We are still discussing the utility of IW compared to Sailing - but we will certainly choose one or the other to research next. We'll let you know as soon as we've made a decision. One last thing: In order to speed exploration and contact, please describe best route for us to meet Kazakhstan - by sea or by land? Glad to be aboard! Peter Grimes, Diplomat The Mad Scientists
p.s. - please forward this postcard to Kazakhstan. Thanks!
Please accept our apologies for the delay in getting the suggested
formal treaty to you for signature, we certainly haven't forgotten our
northern cousins, but our carrier pigeons certainly do take their time
delivering these stone tablets. Maybe we need to train stronger
pigeons, you think? Though our friends in Kazakhstan tell us they have
a secret on how to make stone tablets that are much thinner and
lighter, sounds intriguing. If only they knew how to tell us this
secret, but they claim it will not be long now {turn 63 they get
Alphabet}.
Attached is the treaty we propose that our three people sign. If you
have any amendments to propose, we will be happy to hear them. Also
note that the same proposal has been sent to Kazakhstan, and suggested
amendments may come from that direction too. We hope there will not be
much need for changes though, and we are very happy with the proposal
we can now finally give you.
With friendship from your southern brothers,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros
Spoiler:
The Treaty of the True Triple Alliance (TTA):
§0. Treaty Duration and cancellation terms
* This treaty will last indefinitely, and can only be canceled by
written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the treaty can not be given before the year
500 AD (turn 135).
§1. Peace and Non-Aggression
* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to
take no hostile action of any kind towards members of the alliance.
§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to
open borders with each other, to allow the free passage of units and
merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on all
sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* This will be handled via a formal Open Borders agreement when
possible, once Writing is commonly known within the alliance. If
passage is needed before that time, it will be handled through a phony
state of war.
§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to
form an Exclusive Tech Alliance (ETA). No member of the ETA will buy,
sell or trade technologies with a civ/team outside the ETA without the
consent of the other two ETA members.
* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to
cooperate on the advancement of knowledge, initially to achieve the
following technology goals and trades as soon as possible:
- Team Mad Scientists to give Sailing, Iron Working and Polytheism
- Team Cavaleiros to give Meditation, Priesthood and Monarchy
- Team Kazakhstan to give Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Writing and Alphabet
* Members agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable
speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to
deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan at any point in time may be given
in a state of emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If any member of the alliance wishes to invoke such an exception, it
must notify the other two alliance members of its intent and reasons
for the deviation.
* Upon completion of any technology goal by any people, the technology
will be traded to the other two peoples as quickly as possible, after
Alphabet is common knowledge.
* All members agree that mutual technological advancement will
continue beyond the completion of the immediate technology goals, but
that plans for the future technology goals are to be negotiated
continuously at later points, as addendums to this treaty.
* All members agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in
such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.
§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree that
in the case that any alliance member has a spare resource to trade,
they will first try to negotiate a trade with the one of the other
peoples of this treaty.
Only if no such deal is possible will the people consider trading that
resource to another people.
§5. Religion
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Mad Scientists recognize the wishes
and needs of the people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree
to let Kazakhstan have priority for researching any technology that
leads to a religion, until they have managed to found one.
Greetings! The Mad Scientists have analyzed the possibilities this treaty enables, and we are very happy to announce that we agree to all points, as written. We are [7] turns from Iron Working, which we will send on as soon as possible. To The Future! Peter Grimes of The Mad Scientists
I think it's like Methos said, MS don't want to spill the beans just yet about being part of the TTA. They will want the techs soon enough. The fact that they passed on iron working shows their good intentions.
What could be MS's motivation for concealing the alliance? Are they fearing retaliation from another team? Or trying to broker another deal? The whole thing just seems a little strange...
SANCTA's score seems awfully high to not be tech trading with anyone... Is it possible that they got IW from MS through some brokering by Saturn (the same way we got IW) It is just a little wierd that everyone is getting IW at the same time.
I think MS is bluffing us, and the way they changed their ways, shows they are dealing right and left across. I expect Saturn to be the middle broker on their side, as we are the middle broker on our side, having alphabet. We need a way to handle MS, and how to maneuver around Saturn, who seems to bridge MS and Sancta the same way we try to do.
By the way, did MS say how they met SANCTA? Did SANCTA meet them via sea? Or was it a land based encounter. If by sea then SANCTA must have met Saturn already for sure.
I think we should go along Sailing for Writing, then we suddenly change our mind due to some technicality. As far as I know, no one in our alliance got sailing. This would keep the motivated to think cooperation, and disrupt their military planning.
I also was supporting this approach but then I thought. Dosen't it seem fishy to anyone that SANCTA has TWICE offered to trade us the EXACT SAME TECH as what MS are teching? If MS are giving SANCTA tech, asking them to tech Sailing for us would not delay them at all... because they are not teching it... MS are. I still think MS and SANCTA getting IW one turn apart was very suspicious. I know that folks are confident about their demographics reading skills so I am not trying to offend but you have to admit at least that these are two wierd coincidences...
This is the new proposed SANCTA treaty for reference:
The Path of Daytime Home Shopping
We agree to an Open Borders deal and a trade of knowledge. Along with you lopsided benefit from Open Borders, we also offer Sailing, Masonry and Monotheism, (447 ) and well trade these with you for only two easy payments of Writing (less than 100 value now) and Polytheism (149 )!
Wed exchange technology with you as follows: Sailing for Writing
Masonry for Polytheism
Monotheism for Free! (as soon as we discover it, coming up soon)
But you must act fast! All technologies are individually hand crafted and come with a beautiful certificate of authenticity. Unfortunately this is a limited time offer.
Neither SANCTA nor MS have Alphabet so the fact the got IW one turn apart indicate they are not cooperating on techs, as why would they go for the same tech?
By "stumbled across", they mean that a SANCTA goon squad came to their border and extorted them... "If you know what's good for you you will give us whatever tech you have... otherwise our 'wandering axes' will start 'chopping wood' in your territory"
Neither SANCTA nor MS have Alphabet so the fact the got IW one turn apart indicate they are not cooperating on techs, as why would they go for the same tech?
Yes of course you are right but what about Saturn? Are you saying that Saturn do not have Alpha either? If Saturn has Alpha then they and Sancta could extort MS for tech whether MS has Alpha or not right? SANCTA tells MS "Give up tech or die." MS says "But you dont have Alpha." SANCTA says "give the tech to Saturn" then Saturn gives to SANCTA... simple. If Saturn does not have Alpha, then I would agree that this is not possible.
Saturn also don't have Alphabet... I thought they might have been teching it now but they were teching CoL.
If MS gave IW to Saturn then SANCTA won't have been able to get it from Saturn until the turn after that. And Saturn's score would have had to go up on the same turn and it didn't.
Fair enough... So my suspicions were unfounded... that is actually a relief now that I think about it. I guess MS were really just trying to conceal alliance. Good for them.
One last question, how do we know that Saturn does not have Alpha? From SANCTA folks, Cavalieros, or MS?
From watching their score. CoL is the first Classical era tech they've researched. (classical era techs are +12 points, whereas ancient era are +6 points)
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![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
points from 3 civs all targetted against them
By "stumbled across", they mean that a SANCTA goon squad came to their border and extorted them... "If you know what's good for you you will give us whatever tech you have... otherwise our 'wandering axes' will start 'chopping wood' in your territory"
but what about Saturn? Are you saying that Saturn do not have Alpha either? If Saturn has Alpha then they and Sancta could extort MS for tech whether MS has Alpha or not right? SANCTA tells MS "Give up tech or die." MS says "But you dont have Alpha." SANCTA says "give the tech to Saturn" then Saturn gives to SANCTA... simple. If Saturn does not have Alpha, then I would agree that this is not possible.
