Msn

[Unconquered Sun]

I'm back and we had a long discussion online. Here it is (with minor edits).

Spoiler :

oyzar says:
just building those troops would also cost us a fair amount in terms of development
oyzar says:
not sure the extra beakers for upgrades are worth it considering how little gold/commerce we are making atm
oyzar says:
150 gold per mace -> rifle
oyzar says:
so 1800 for 12 maces
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
yeah - I don't think upgrades are the way to go, unless we can get a GM quickly
oyzar says:
1800 gold is about 30 turns worth of producing gold
Morgan says:
are we in that bad a shape?
Morgan says:
what if we built weath in all major cities?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
instead of maces?
oyzar says:
building wealth for upgrades? ugh
oyzar says:
that's using just every 1 hammer out of four

Morgan says:
whats the best whipping scenario for rilfes?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
are pikes obsoleted by rifling? (as opposed to maces which are with MilSci)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
if so, they would make good prebuilds
Morgan says:
i belive they are
oyzar says:
should be easy to check, but i belive so yes
oyzar says:
how does that work with traded for rifling though?

oyzar says:
do they still get turned into rifles?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I think so.
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
this should also be easy to test
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
at any rate, the builds will be changed to rifles (if it does work) before the production phase at the end of the turn, so it is possible to build/whip them on the same turn you get rifling
oyzar says:
USun: ZPV wants more workers, rusten wants OU, morgan wants to whip caravels and maces and then upgrade them to rifles, what do you think?
ryan says:
OU?
Unconquered Sun says:
workers
oyzar says:
oxford
Morgan says:
Pikes obs at Gunpower i think
oyzar says:
certainly not

oyzar says:
saturn got the same city razed again... by barb spears
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
but muskets obselete at rifling, so no need to mess with pikes.

Unconquered Sun says:
carracks will take a while to sail
Unconquered Sun says:
our capital is the closest production center
oyzar says:
nah, carracks are cheap, we can whip them in colina cavalos

Unconquered Sun says:
we can whip a few
Unconquered Sun says:
but if sancta have engineering by then
Unconquered Sun says:
it wont be easy to take a city, barring surprise
Unconquered Sun says:
if we count on surprise, we can build 1
oyzar says:
i don't think 1 will be enough for surprise
oyzar says:
but like 2-3 might be enough for surprise
Unconquered Sun says:
they are in representation
oyzar says:
they know carracks are comming
Unconquered Sun says:
they keep 1 warrior per city atm
oyzar says:
they just don't know when and where
Unconquered Sun says:
if they are prepared
Unconquered Sun says:
we can take down 1 city
Unconquered Sun says:
at considerable cost
Unconquered Sun says:
i.e. at a cost that is comparable to taking a land city
Unconquered Sun says:
however
Unconquered Sun says:
whats more important is making sancta spend for defense
oyzar says:
you think it will be comparable to taking a land city?
Unconquered Sun says:
block their coast
Unconquered Sun says:
sure
oyzar says:
just send unloaded carracks?
oyzar says:
like 2 of them?
Unconquered Sun says:
how would you react if you were memphus?
oyzar says:
thats a good idea actually
Nancy says:
haha
oyzar says:
they can't afford to ignore it
Nancy says:
on first sight, i kinda love it
Unconquered Sun says:
tbh if I were memphus Ill get optics myself and fight with caravels
Unconquered Sun says:
then turn the tables with my own UU
oyzar says:
well their UU obsolete colossus
oyzar says:
so with 120 hammers we can kill colossus?
Unconquered Sun says:
they got colossus ultra cheap
oyzar says:
sure, but they still get benefit from it
Unconquered Sun says:
not to mention the denial worth
Unconquered Sun says:
exactly
Unconquered Sun says:
it was a must have
Unconquered Sun says:
even if aiming for astro soonish
Unconquered Sun says:
all civs on this map are somewhat dependant on sea tiles
Unconquered Sun says:
so naval dominance will be a factor
Unconquered Sun says:
even ironclads might see use
Unconquered Sun says:
no sea > no seafood and other tiles, less traderoute income
Unconquered Sun says:
and perhaps most importantly
oyzar says:
i like this idea, though it will be hard for us to see the effects of it...
Unconquered Sun says:
no sea control = need to protect all coastal cities against invasion
oyzar says:
and if they have warriors defending, we will regret not sending a few maces...
Nancy says:
something in between maybe? four ships with four maces?
Nancy says:
just in case?
ryan says:
yes, i think haste is key
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
it's two units per ship, I think
Nancy says:
yeah i know
oyzar says:
one ship with maces
oyzar says:
then one without
oyzar says:
maybe
oyzar says:
though one mace cost as much as a mace...
Nancy says:
was suggesting we not fill them if we're going for a bit of subterfuge without full commitment
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
oh, ok
Unconquered Sun says:
capital and fog&cloud are the key coastal cities for sancta
Nancy says:
yeah
oyzar says:
2 maces obviously can't raze them
oyzar says:
if we want to try to raze them we likely have to send 4-6 carracks with rifles for example
Unconquered Sun says:
unlikely, as without amphib 1 lbow can defend
Unconquered Sun says:
imo the best path is to force SANCTA into huge defensive spending
Unconquered Sun says:
keep them on their toes with incursion from the sea and the land
Nancy says:
then we'd need to send another empty carrack over every few turns, force them to keep ramping up against what might be coming or already there
oyzar says:
if we want to force them to split resources, we have to attack from the west as well...
oyzar says:
but that might be unifiable with the carrack plan if we can just launch 3 or so MoM powered golden ages...
Unconquered Sun says:
which brings us back to xp 5 units
Nancy says:
if we tried something like this, we wouldn't actualy be taking any cities from them in the near term -- it'd all be bent toward making them easy prey later on ... does this give kaz too much of an advantage, given their shorter supply lines?
Nancy says:
yeah, were are we gettting those?
oyzar says:
so you want to stick in theology after optics or something?
Unconquered Sun says:
well, diplomacy is still the big thing
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
agree
oyzar says:
agree with what?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
diplo being the big thing
oyzar says:
are you unhappy with our diplo situation?
Unconquered Sun says:
losing 1 of our allies will hurt us more than sancta losing any city but it's capital
Unconquered Sun says:
no, it's awesome
oyzar says:
sure...
Unconquered Sun says:
general w is unhappy tho
oyzar says:
one ally is 8 cities...
Unconquered Sun says:
what we have now cant be taken for granted
oyzar says:
his fault for not realizing workboats are key
Morgan says:
Kaleb was moaning yesterday about Kaz doing all the work
oyzar says:
oh
oyzar says:
:/
Unconquered Sun says:
RL war weariness
Morgan says:
i think we should sent maces or rifles with the 1st 2 or 3 carracks, we'd kick oursleves if we found an oppertunity we couldn;t take
Unconquered Sun says:
i agree
oyzar says:
so 1 carrack with maces, 1 unloaded?
Morgan says:
2
ryan says:
i'd rather they be loaded
Morgan says:
2 loaded
Morgan says:
minimum
oyzar says:
how are two loaded better than 1?
Unconquered Sun says:
we ought to have enough to beat a longbow regardless of luck
oyzar says:
hmm ok
Morgan says:
agreed
Unconquered Sun says:
mind you they are creative/wonder heavy
oyzar says:
then we need 4
Nancy says:
and?
Unconquered Sun says:
high city defense
oyzar says:
60%
Nancy says:
oh yeah
oyzar says:
but we aren't going to find their 2 main cities with just one lbow are we?
Nancy says:
already being considered
oyzar says:
or you propse we go directly go there?
Unconquered Sun says:
well
Unconquered Sun says:
memphus can defend
oyzar says:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3858/civ4screenshot0577.jpg i want to found a city here but that would send the one mace we already have on a detour protecting that settler
Unconquered Sun says:
he has limited resources tho
Unconquered Sun says:
very limited resources to be exact
Unconquered Sun says:
sancta is allied with the weakest of all 4 other civs
oyzar says:
getting weaker by their fights with barbs
Unconquered Sun says:
Id leave that spot to MS btw
oyzar says:
8 cities for kaz/ms 6 for saturn atm
Unconquered Sun says:
or saturn
Unconquered Sun says:
best if they get into a fight about it
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
if we're talking about the possiblity of suiciding against one lbow, wouldn't horse archers work better for knocking off the first few HP due to their immunity to first strikes?
oyzar says:
just one first strike
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
or even our own lbows
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
still
oyzar says:
you can't withdraw onto a boat right?
Unconquered Sun says:
dont think so
Nancy says:
love your national park, oyzar! heh
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
no, you can't
Unconquered Sun says:
depends on the lbow promos
oyzar says:
lol nancy , but if we aren't going for that spot it won't happen tho
Nancy says:
no, just laughing at it
Unconquered Sun says:
we might use HAs for timing tho
Unconquered Sun says:
it's best to sail early
Unconquered Sun says:
not to wait for a mace to get to colina
oyzar says:
where to build the HA's?
oyzar says:
if we are just sending like 2-4 units it won't be that hard to get them together(thoguh getting promos on them would be hard)
Unconquered Sun says:
the other colina has barracks for instance
oyzar says:
yes, but no road there
Unconquered Sun says:
thats why zpv is right about workers
oyzar says:
(though the worker chopping for ohlo could road afterwards)
oyzar says:
i am building 3 workers atm :/
Unconquered Sun says:
i know, I built a ton of workers myself
Unconquered Sun says:
however the map is worker intensive
Unconquered Sun says:
while the tech pace and the caps are fairly high
Nancy says:
make them think we're waiting for rifles (based on our tech path, etc); show up earlier -- might shock 'em a bit, if not actualy catch them with their pants down
oyzar says:
how would we make them think that? say it straight out?
Unconquered Sun says:
assuming no optics or engineering sancta will have very hard time dealing with carracks
Nancy says:
well sure! lol


oyzar says:
even with engineering, it is quite far between their various cities
Unconquered Sun says:
naval supremacy is another reason why Steel is crucial on this map
oyzar says:
steel for ironclads?
Unconquered Sun says:
engineering is more speed + castles
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
drydocks
Unconquered Sun says:
castles with lbows make pre Rifling attack very hard
Unconquered Sun says:
amphibious that is
Unconquered Sun says:
drydocks
Unconquered Sun says:
closer to ironclads
Unconquered Sun says:
or even destroyers
oyzar says:
we aren't very far from rifles though, do you think they will prioritize castles?
Unconquered Sun says:
curiously, the other tech for clads is the levee tech...
Unconquered Sun says:
no bets
oyzar says:
how do we prioritize after lib?
oyzar says:
optics is obviously good
oyzar says:
but after that?
oyzar says:
economics? nationalism? chem?
Unconquered Sun says:
so far sancta've made many unorthodox choices in teching
oyzar says:
music for the GA? edu before machinery?
oyzar says:
i've seen those numerous times before
Unconquered Sun says:
sancta have music?
Unconquered Sun says:
ah
oyzar says:
yes...
Unconquered Sun says:
ofc they do
Unconquered Sun says:
I didnt understand what you meant
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
@oyzar: I think chem->steam power
oyzar says:
before economics / nationalism?
Unconquered Sun says:
steam power is power to us
Unconquered Sun says:
so many riverside
oyzar says:
I agree, though levees aren't free
Unconquered Sun says:
economics is cheap enough to be worth it
Unconquered Sun says:
we dont need nationalism as much as Kaz tho
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
the worker moves are free though
oyzar says:
nationalism might help kaz
oyzar says:
so it would mostly be to help them
Nancy says:
I am currently idle.
oyzar says:
or if we pop a GE ofc...
oyzar says:
you want to chop levees too?
oyzar says:
GE is currently at 23% btw
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
me? I say keep chopping until you knock your own arms off
oyzar says:
31% prophet
oyzar says:
46% spy
Unconquered Sun says:
seconded on chop
oyzar says:
5 24 hammer chops potentially in serptente
Unconquered Sun says:
SoL, Kremlin
Unconquered Sun says:
one must be ours at the very least
oyzar says:
OU?
Unconquered Sun says:
sure
Unconquered Sun says:
regardless, we still have to build one of those somewhere
Unconquered Sun says:
without kremlin, we wont be able to convert gold to units favorably



Unconquered Sun says:
sol on pangea: nuff said
oyzar says:
kremlin helps a lot with whipping as well
Marcus says:
O hai
Unconquered Sun says:
we're a bit cottage heavy
oyzar says:
that's what rusten said as well :/
oyzar says:
should have complained before we built them all
Unconquered Sun says:
rusten's been honing his GP skills
Unconquered Sun says:
Id be careful with the pitboss, he's Peter
Marcus says:

oyzar says:
GP's who need them?
oyzar says:
`can't you see i am running a commerce economy?
Unconquered Sun says:
yeah
Unconquered Sun says:
and Dave
Marcus says:

Unconquered Sun says:
who's in charge of sancta's economy
oyzar says:
dave?
Unconquered Sun says:
yes
Unconquered Sun says:
davemcw
Unconquered Sun says:
the cottage lover
oyzar says:
dave isn't actually in the mtdg
Unconquered Sun says:
not according to memphus
Unconquered Sun says:
he's been telling me about detailed comments of dave's
oyzar says:
well he never signed up at least...


Nancy says:
hah. funny
Unconquered Sun says:
he did join some discussions on sancta's side
Unconquered Sun says:
he's informed
oyzar says:
and you don't need cottages to make commerce
Unconquered Sun says:
and he won mtgd 1 with memphus
oyzar says:
sanctas gnp is now at 384
oyzar says:
our is at 139 atm
Nancy says:
lol
Unconquered Sun says:
we lose a lot for maintenance
Unconquered Sun says:
they gain some from creative/wonders
oyzar says:
at 100% slider we are at 291 which is #2
oyzar says:
241 CY to their 190 atm
Unconquered Sun says:
how many villages do we have?
oyzar says:
16 atm
oyzar says:
actually 14 and 2 towns
oyzar says:
11 hamlets
oyzar says:
the barb axe went on flatland
oyzar says:
so next turn we have about 99% chance of unlocking HE
Nancy says:
odds?
Nancy says:
good
oyzar says:
i can't check atm
oyzar says:
since it is in the fog
Unconquered Sun says:
99ish
Unconquered Sun says:
and also re
Unconquered Sun says:
we can consider the HE unlocked
Unconquered Sun says:
is Ohlo building it?
oyzar says:
4.4 vs 2.22
oyzar says:
i was thinking vinheda should build the HE and ohlo the NE
oyzar says:
we don't have any other spot to make great people
Unconquered Sun says:
then we have to irrigate over the cottages there
Unconquered Sun says:
moreover
oyzar says:
in vinheda? sure
Unconquered Sun says:
vinheda is not on the sea
Unconquered Sun says:
which means
Unconquered Sun says:
no HE for ships
Unconquered Sun says:
ever
oyzar says:
you want HE for ships?
oyzar says:
drydocks makes HE way worse for ships than for other kinds of units
Unconquered Sun says:
what's your plan for dealing with sancta's UU?
Unconquered Sun says:
mathematically
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
ships will be harder to get though, since coastal cities will naturally have less production
Unconquered Sun says:
siege makes land units inferior to ships
oyzar says:
what do you mean?
Unconquered Sun says:
can we win with all our cities blockaded?
oyzar says:
chem is not that long away...
Unconquered Sun says:
chem only makes us at par with sancta
Unconquered Sun says:
they have better coastal cities
oyzar says:
cabo da cavalo is going to be a pretty good production city, as is porto cavalos(though that is further from the front)
Unconquered Sun says:
I agree on cabo
Unconquered Sun says:
however
Unconquered Sun says:
sancta already have 2 major on coast
Unconquered Sun says:
so it's 2v2 with cabo
Unconquered Sun says:
and they have a lot of coastline
oyzar says:
we got 4 whip cities shortly
oyzar says:
(coastal)
oyzar says:
colina cavalos , porto escravanto, the fish city and the clam city
oyzar says:
and also there is zhou
Unconquered Sun says:
whip becomes irrelevant for destroyers
Unconquered Sun says:
and there's sancta UB
oyzar says:
i admit i haven't tought about destroyers...
Nancy says:
should we send spies to sancta, or not worth it? it's a long walk
oyzar says:
that's why you are there, to come with good ideas / make sure i don't do anything stupid?

oyzar says:
kaz apparently got a spy or two wandering around

Unconquered Sun says:
I have that effect

oyzar says:
ZPV didn't bother catching up, he just jumped into thing

Unconquered Sun says:
about sentries: Id like to have 1 on each border
Unconquered Sun says:
spy or scout depends on the border
oyzar says:
sentries as in spies or naval units or what?
Unconquered Sun says:
i.e. scout next to Saturn: assuming no more barbs there, it's the best choice
Unconquered Sun says:
land units for now
Unconquered Sun says:
imo spy is better v MS
Unconquered Sun says:
we dont want them to consider why we're keeping a scout
Unconquered Sun says:
nearby
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I'd have thought a sentry HA on a hill covered by a couple of units would be best where hostilities are obvious

oyzar says:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5443/civ4screenshot0578.jpg why haven't MS settled a city there yet??? should we suggest that they do so?
Unconquered Sun says:
too expensive for the time being [to build HA sentries]
Unconquered Sun says:
a spy for MS (not in their borders), 1 scout for Saturn, 1 scout for sancta unless there's barb risk

Unconquered Sun says:
mounted sentry is important (5 xp!)
Nancy says:
i agree with the need for sentries, not that that should be any surprise as i'm paranoid
Unconquered Sun says:
however hill makes it redundant
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
sentry on a hill can see 3 squares
oyzar says:
do sentries on hill seee 3 squares?
oyzar says:
that's what i was going to ask
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
yes
Unconquered Sun says:
really? well, that's CIV for you, learn a new thing every day
oyzar says:
on the saturn border, we'll get a mountain in range shortly, that should show their new city at least
Unconquered Sun says:
well, that makes indiansmoke even more deluded
Unconquered Sun says:
then we're covered there
oyzar says:
you've had all these convos with the other teams that you never told anyone else about
Unconquered Sun says:
I had only 2 brw
Unconquered Sun says:
btw
Unconquered Sun says:
1 with memphus (long)
Unconquered Sun says:
and 1 with indiansmoke, and it wasnt very long at all
oyzar says:
didn't you say that you talked with general w as well?
Unconquered Sun says:
it was like: get theo for xp 5 units!
Unconquered Sun says:
answer: nah
oyzar says:
what did you get out of the convo with memphus?

Unconquered Sun says:
that dave thinks they are slightly short on cottages
Unconquered Sun says:
it was a long time ago really
oyzar says:
we could have teched tho to force them to get 5 xp units if it was that important
Unconquered Sun says:
he does consider you and niklas very peaceful
Unconquered Sun says:
and thus no danger
oyzar says:
good thing there are 36 other people on this team
Unconquered Sun says:
eh, without PurpleTurtle it's like pigeons everywhere
oyzar says:
i need more people to tell me when and what to build of units(or even better take the turns to build those units) rather than people like zpv who suggests more workers less units...
Unconquered Sun says:
did he quit btw? or is he on vacation?
Unconquered Sun says:
more workers is more units: chop and road
oyzar says:
I am not sure, he quit the cav pitboss... so not sure if he just decided to spend less time on civ or got a bit too busy to handle it atm
Unconquered Sun says:
I want him back on the team
oyzar says:
send him a pm
Unconquered Sun says:
good idea
oyzar says:
so about playing turns? you want to starting playing again a bit when we get closer to carracks?
Unconquered Sun says:
if my RL occupation doesn't change
Unconquered Sun says:
yes
Unconquered Sun says:
Ill be able to
Unconquered Sun says:
generally I prefer this to be a team effort
Unconquered Sun says:
that's where the fun is
oyzar says:
yes...
oyzar says:
but moving the discussion from msn onto the forum would help a lot
oyzar says:
right now pretty much all discussion is happening on msn
Unconquered Sun says:
right
oyzar says:
which is a bit bad for those not on msn
Unconquered Sun says:
post transcripts?
Nancy says:
yeah
Unconquered Sun says:
I understand rusten is active on msn
oyzar says:
i could post logs, but as rusten say, reading logs is boring... making summaries require more effort than actually doing the convo though
Unconquered Sun says:
I'll try to get Munro more involved with the invasion plans
Unconquered Sun says:
he's a good general
oyzar says:
ZPV are you a good general?
oyzar says:
or you prefer planning to whip workers to chop more workers?
oyzar says:

ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
Well, I think I'm a good everything, but beyond that no, not particularly

Nancy says:
start with the log post; at least it's something
oyzar says:
I know i am certainly not best at modern era warfare
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
and me thinking I'm good at something doesn't neccesarily mean I actually am
Unconquered Sun says:
ZPV why not be a turnplayer for a while?
oyzar says:
ZPV haven't even read the whole played turns thread yet
Unconquered Sun says:
(assuming there are no plans in place already)
Unconquered Sun says:
neither have I...
oyzar says:
he just joined
oyzar says:
well i have plans(but sadly they are all in my head)
Unconquered Sun says:
I didnt read the old turns
Unconquered Sun says:
and when nancy quit
Unconquered Sun says:
noone told me sancta got forge on t66
Unconquered Sun says:
that caused some commotion
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I'm not sure I have the time/energy to plan everything properly. If I do, I'm happy to play awhile
oyzar says:
forge on turn 66? i don't even remember that
Unconquered Sun says:
yeah, that's why they got GE on t100
Unconquered Sun says:
in retrospect, I could have chopped the HG for t100 as well
Unconquered Sun says:
that would've been impressive
Unconquered Sun says:
henge, aqueduct, and HG in 5 turns
oyzar says:
in the end we waited a bit and got one extra pop i belive
oyzar says:
and we didn't miss out on it
Unconquered Sun says:
ah
Unconquered Sun says:
memphus told me
Unconquered Sun says:
at the time
oyzar says:
they built mids
Unconquered Sun says:
they had an argument
Unconquered Sun says:
krill wanting to steal the HG
Unconquered Sun says:
memphus wanting Mids
Unconquered Sun says:
finally Mids
Unconquered Sun says:
he kind of expected gratitude
Unconquered Sun says:
I told him it didnt matter
Unconquered Sun says:
but they still belive we got it ASAP
Unconquered Sun says:
on t103 or something
Unconquered Sun says:
*on
oyzar says:
we got it turn 102
Unconquered Sun says:
that's another thing
Unconquered Sun says:
sancta are slightly underestimating us
oyzar says:
bah, which thread was that discussion in?
Unconquered Sun says:
the internal affairs one?
oyzar says:
underestimating us how?
Nancy says:
that's ok
Unconquered Sun says:
by not believing that we can build aque-HG in 3-4 turns for instance
Unconquered Sun says:
by believing you and niklas are totally peaceful
Unconquered Sun says:
and other stuff
Unconquered Sun says:
on the other hand, we probably underestimate them too, I know I did
oyzar says:
probably
oyzar says:
how did you underestimate them?
Unconquered Sun says:
general economy output
Unconquered Sun says:
music
Unconquered Sun says:
I got right their military defense
Unconquered Sun says:
got the GE in time
oyzar says:
they have fast libraries, colossus, financial, glh and mids
oyzar says:
if they aren't teching faster than us they are doing something wrong
Unconquered Sun says:
they only had Fin and fast libraries at 4000 bc


oyzar says:
(they are doing something wrong by not sending a wb out earlier)
Unconquered Sun says:
oracle, colossus, mids, keeping up with us in cities for so long
Unconquered Sun says:
they got that themselves
Unconquered Sun says:
and also defending vs Kaz
Unconquered Sun says:
they made a mistake with the wb
Unconquered Sun says:
however, that's part of the reason they got oracle first
Unconquered Sun says:
very focused
Unconquered Sun says:
it's a good thing our diplo made it
oyzar says:
we had some bad luck with barbs in the early game actually
oyzar says:
we lost 3 fights with bears
Unconquered Sun says:
made the workboats worth it
oyzar says:
which cost us several turns for serpente
Unconquered Sun says:
luck begins at terrain
oyzar says:
did you realize you can see how much an enemy city have invested into whatever it is building through the espionage screen?
Unconquered Sun says:
no
oyzar says:
true
Unconquered Sun says:
cost?
oyzar says:
poor serpente
Unconquered Sun says:
for sabotage?
see, learn something new every day
oyzar says:
yes
Unconquered Sun says:
naturally
Unconquered Sun says:
couple of things today
oyzar says:
I learnt this from ZPV like 3 days ago i belive
Unconquered Sun says:
and I pass for a top CIV expert at that
Unconquered Sun says:
it's so logical
oyzar says:
was worried about sancta building MoM in fog and cloud, but it was moai instead, now they are either building MoM in one of their fog cities or not at all(and if they are building it shortly in one of the two fog cities, one of which is flatland the other gems, odds are they wont' finish it that soon due to the timing of the revolt)
oyzar says:
oh
Unconquered Sun says:
whats our estimate on their next GP?
oyzar says:
1322 in inner sanctum now
oyzar says:
might be building it there
oyzar says:
but they won't be able to beat us
oyzar says:
zpv you there?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
yeah
oyzar says:
or you have the formulas handy?
oyzar says:
438 for building
oyzar says:
likely a barracks
Unconquered Sun says:
we have to locate sancta's HE

ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
how much does incite revolt cost?
oyzar says:
949
oyzar says:
3 turns left until we have MoM
oyzar says:
so doubt they can beat us
Unconquered Sun says:
apart from GE
oyzar says:
yeah
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I think it's 151 hammers, but I'm not sure exactly - I'll have a look at the espionage thread and get back to you. Definitely somewhere around that range

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Part II (I did say long, didn't I)

Spoiler :

oyzar says:
could be HE i guess
oyzar says:
so you want HE in ohlo US?
oyzar says:
where would you put NE then?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
NP city
Unconquered Sun says:
in ohlo
oyzar says:
the one i linked earlier?
Unconquered Sun says:
dont ask
Unconquered Sun says:
thing is
oyzar says:
NE + HE in ohlo?
Unconquered Sun says:
if we fail navy
Unconquered Sun says:
NE in ohlo fails too
Unconquered Sun says:
well
Unconquered Sun says:
HE in cabo then?
Unconquered Sun says:
I havent logged in a while
oyzar says:
cabo is size 1
Unconquered Sun says:
Ohlo is very stressed
oyzar says:
better to build it in vinheda or porto cavalos
Unconquered Sun says:
being both production and gpp pillar
Unconquered Sun says:
vinheda isnt coastal
Unconquered Sun says:
porto seems rather low prod
Unconquered Sun says:
do we have moai yet?
oyzar says:
no
oyzar says:
i was thinking moai in colina cavalos, but it is expensive without stone
Unconquered Sun says:
MP games require a lot of prod
oyzar says:
what do we want to pop next for great person? GE? GP?
Unconquered Sun says:
at least 1 major military (excluding mass whips early)
Unconquered Sun says:
at least 1 wonder main city
Unconquered Sun says:
any will do
Unconquered Sun says:
we want more GPs, type doesnt matter that much
Unconquered Sun says:
even GAs will come handy
Unconquered Sun says:
3 out of our 4 core cities are cottaged
oyzar says:
if we get MoM and levees we just want to chain golden ages anyways
Unconquered Sun says:
hence we have this production problems
Unconquered Sun says:
that's the plan
Unconquered Sun says:
chain golden ages
Unconquered Sun says:
steam -> Assembly
Unconquered Sun says:
get kremlin and SoL on the way


ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
possible detour to biology?

ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
if we're teching SciMeth for the Kremlin
oyzar says:
physics would help our scouting problems



Unconquered Sun says:
true


Unconquered Sun says:
I place less importance on Bio
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
although if we keep up this line of thought, we'll detour to every tech
oyzar says:
we need to prioritize with tech path
Unconquered Sun says:
thing is
Unconquered Sun says:
some choices made a long time ago
Unconquered Sun says:
cant be unmade
oyzar says:
we have too many cottages
Unconquered Sun says:
if we get kremlin and cottage civics
Unconquered Sun says:
that'll win the game
Unconquered Sun says:
but if we dont
Unconquered Sun says:
now
Unconquered Sun says:
we have the option to move away from cottages
Unconquered Sun says:
still, that's wasting our investment in them
Unconquered Sun says:
it's rather large
Unconquered Sun says:
totally enormous in fact
Unconquered Sun says:
low yields, worker turns
Unconquered Sun says:
you name it
oyzar says:
seems like both you and rusten are unhappy that we have so many cottages
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
well, we don't have to throw good money after bad, if it is better to just bulldoze them when the time comes
Unconquered Sun says:
cant do that while worker-starved
Unconquered Sun says:
it amounts to stopping development
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
true
Unconquered Sun says:
we'll be working ~300 tiles soon
Unconquered Sun says:
and once again, nonfinancial cottages aren't bad
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
certainly not in the capital
Unconquered Sun says:
it's just that in MP, your opponents wont sleep as you get banks and kremlin
Unconquered Sun says:
and tac nukes
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
how does nuke warfare work out in MP? I've haven't played against actual humans enough to know.
Unconquered Sun says:
havent played BtS nuke MP
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I'd have thought that the first one there just nukes uranium, and that's the end of it
Unconquered Sun says:
Warlords: I subbed oyzar in a game with lots of nukes
Unconquered Sun says:
ICBMs tho
Unconquered Sun says:
nah
oyzar says:
I've only played with nukes in BTS cept aboria, and i was never in the run to get nukes or get nuked there...
Unconquered Sun says:
ICBMs are too expensive
Unconquered Sun says:
tac nukes however
Unconquered Sun says:
which bring us back to naval supremacy

oyzar says:
so basically you want HE in a coastal city
Unconquered Sun says:
eh, let me log first
Unconquered Sun says:
make some calcs


Unconquered Sun says:
we havent agreed on tech path, have we?

Unconquered Sun says:
post Lib that is
Unconquered Sun says:
including Libbed tech
oyzar says:
not really, just lib/pp/rp then compass optics while kaz heads for gunpowder rifling

Unconquered Sun says:
you are aware Im opposed to this tech path
oyzar says:
uh
oyzar says:
what do you want to do then?
Unconquered Sun says:
steel
Unconquered Sun says:
not rifling
oyzar says:
PP and RP helps our empire and rifling give kaz their UU, but no i wasn't aware
Unconquered Sun says:
my last rant-y post was about that
Unconquered Sun says:
PP and optics we agree on
Unconquered Sun says:
it's Rifling, RP that bother me
oyzar says:
so what do you want to take from lib then?
Unconquered Sun says:
chemistry?
Unconquered Sun says:
steel?
Unconquered Sun says:
anyhow
oyzar says:
steel isn't that good for sancta though, is it?
Unconquered Sun says:
I dont see how Kaz will produce their UU
Unconquered Sun says:
i expect sancta to get steel
oyzar says:
drafting



Unconquered Sun says:
they have like 1 city that is size 8
Unconquered Sun says:
so they can draft
Unconquered Sun says:
2 redcoats
Unconquered Sun says:
I can kill 2 redcoats with archers
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
lol
oyzar says:
they have 5 cities that can draft
Unconquered Sun says:
sancta's HE city alone is 1 unit per turn
Unconquered Sun says:
likely at 5 xp regardless of type (GG)
oyzar says:
yes i am aware of that...
oyzar says:
but it is better for us that they are able to build redcoats and us rifles than just us cannons no?
oyzar says:
rifling is just one tech further than the path to steam power anyways...
Unconquered Sun says:
1 cannon > 1 redcoat for MP defense
Unconquered Sun says:
so
Unconquered Sun says:
unless they are mass drafting
Unconquered Sun says:
cannons are better
Unconquered Sun says:
also a bit cheaper
Unconquered Sun says:
also prebuildable
Unconquered Sun says:
with trebs
oyzar says:
rifles are comparable on attack though
Unconquered Sun says:
that are nearly as expensive in hammer cost
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
not against large stacks
oyzar says:
how do you plan to hit those large stacks on the attack?
Unconquered Sun says:
I dont
Unconquered Sun says:
I plan defense
Unconquered Sun says:
for Kaz
Unconquered Sun says:
their attack window
Unconquered Sun says:
closes in 5 turns
Unconquered Sun says:
or so
oyzar says:
what happens in 5 turns?
Unconquered Sun says:
roads + catapults
Unconquered Sun says:
I dont really expect Kaz to be on the offensive anymore
Unconquered Sun says:
Im worried about them being destroyed
oyzar says:
so we need to find a diplomatic way to convince them to stay alive?
Unconquered Sun says:
well
Unconquered Sun says:
first off Id like to see all the arguments backing Rifling
Unconquered Sun says:
then convince team Cav
Unconquered Sun says:
then team Cav convince team Kaz
Unconquered Sun says:
it's a process
Unconquered Sun says:
my objection (posted) is
oyzar says:
well with rifling we can potentially draft to go on the offensive against sancta
Unconquered Sun says:
Rifling =/= redcoats
oyzar says:
and use them from ships
oyzar says:
cannons can't be used from ships
Unconquered Sun says:
thats true
Unconquered Sun says:
but I have a cheaper alternative
Unconquered Sun says:
longbows
Unconquered Sun says:
guerilla II longbows
oyzar says:
longbows from ships?
Unconquered Sun says:
yep
Unconquered Sun says:
taking positions
Unconquered Sun says:
on their hills
Unconquered Sun says:
making them waste hammers
Unconquered Sun says:
to kill them
Unconquered Sun says:
plus carracks
Unconquered Sun says:
making them waste hammers to destroy them
oyzar says:
hmm guerilla 2 rifles would be a hell to dislodge(though obviously more expensive)
Unconquered Sun says:
etc
Unconquered Sun says:
I agree
Unconquered Sun says:
but longbows now have a better advantage than rifles when sancta have steel
Unconquered Sun says:
and mil science
oyzar says:
guerilla 2 rifles can totally neteralize fog and cloud without actually killing the city(not take out colossus ofc) with the help of one carrack taking out the fish
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
yeah. We can't hope for an all-out naval war at this stage - we just can't protect a naval stack. Better to have just guerilla war and tactical raids - and that doesn't require rifling
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
how many G2 rifles are you talking about?
oyzar says:
it does require theocracy however
Unconquered Sun says:
indeed. moreover, it's still 5 civs game, we're not in total war v sancta
oyzar says:
going guerilla on sancta would make kaz happier though
Unconquered Sun says:
xp 5 units: guerilla 2, woodsman 2, sentry, medic, melee/archery/gunpowder +25
Unconquered Sun says:
for free
Unconquered Sun says:
all of it

Unconquered Sun says:
kinda free
Unconquered Sun says:
theo is the price
Unconquered Sun says:
theo is cheaper maintenance than OR
Unconquered Sun says:
no 25% bonus on buildings
Unconquered Sun says:
now
Unconquered Sun says:
kaz wasted 800 hammers on units
Unconquered Sun says:
I say
Unconquered Sun says:
if those units had upgrades
oyzar says:
shock/pinch etc isn't very good though...
Unconquered Sun says:
sentry and hill/forest control are great
oyzar says:
if you could post a summary of this convo in the forums at some point that would be nice
Unconquered Sun says:
i already posted my view on the forum
Unconquered Sun says:
like a week ago
oyzar says:
on all of these things?
Unconquered Sun says:
yes
Unconquered Sun says:
on the importance on xp 5
Unconquered Sun says:
on kaz being unable to produce redcoats
Unconquered Sun says:
in sufficient numbers
Unconquered Sun says:
on steel
Unconquered Sun says:
and on forges and courthouses if you remember
oyzar says:
steel is not in that post
oyzar says:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=307193&p=8358964
oyzar says:
we are building more courthouses now than we were
Unconquered Sun says:
courthouses were the least issue
Unconquered Sun says:
ultimately forges v courthouses is math
Unconquered Sun says:
based on prediction of the future
Unconquered Sun says:
the math is unquestionable
Unconquered Sun says:
the prediction, however
oyzar says:
well kaz is no longer teching guilds
Unconquered Sun says:
they will, for RP
Unconquered Sun says:
sooner or later
oyzar says:
you say that rifling is not the answer in point #2 but you don't actually present any alternatives though
Unconquered Sun says:
it's important you've made them realize Lib is in danger
Unconquered Sun says:
rifling is a stand alone, it gives nothing but rifles
Unconquered Sun says:
steel is a stepping stone to naval supremacy and better techs and wonder-building supercity with ironworks
oyzar says:
that i haven't seen outlined anywhere before, now i have
Unconquered Sun says:
err, which is why my post began with "this is the short version"
oyzar says:
you never posted the long one
Unconquered Sun says:
I really didnt have the time
Unconquered Sun says:
and it is much easier to answer questions instead of write on all possible questions
Unconquered Sun says:
like
Unconquered Sun says:
why is sentry imporant
oyzar says:
so you want our tech path to be lib(ideally for chem while sancta techs gp) -> pp -> optics -> theology while sancta techs steel?
Unconquered Sun says:
Im sure not everyone on the team realizes that, or guerilla, or woodsman, or production capacity, or Kaz wartime development, or steel, or naval supremacy, or golden ages and steam and worker turns and kremlin cottages and how everything is interconnected
Unconquered Sun says:
sancta or kaz?
oyzar says:
kaz
Unconquered Sun says:
i really have to look the map before making any such decisions
oyzar says:
so you agree with PT that naval supermancy is key to winning?
Unconquered Sun says:
what's kaz on atm?
Unconquered Sun says:
PT is back?
oyzar says:
edu
oyzar says:
no
oyzar says:
but he posted about that at the very start
Unconquered Sun says:
Ive played online games
Unconquered Sun says:
islands
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
well, I agree with him now
Unconquered Sun says:
what happens there
Unconquered Sun says:
is
Unconquered Sun says:
somebody has the upper hand in naval
Unconquered Sun says:
and the naval border shifts
Unconquered Sun says:
very quickly
Unconquered Sun says:
rapidly
Unconquered Sun says:
unlike land borders
Unconquered Sun says:
if we can win while blockaded, it's ok
Unconquered Sun says:
if we can't
Unconquered Sun says:
we have to be mindful
Unconquered Sun says:
IMO we cant
oyzar says:
we are working 3 soon 3 seafood
Unconquered Sun says:
right
oyzar says:
2 soon 3
Unconquered Sun says:
but our GP farm is working seafood
Unconquered Sun says:
moreover
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
it's not the loss of coastal tiles, but the neccesity to defend a very long front
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
(all of the coast)
Unconquered Sun says:
we cant protect our lands v troop transports wedged between ohlo peninsula and the new peninsula
Unconquered Sun says:
not without railroad at the very least
Unconquered Sun says:
does rifling lead to railroad
oyzar says:
lol
oyzar says:
so if steel is such a good idea, we should convince kaz to tech gunpowder while we do lib
Unconquered Sun says:
yeah
Unconquered Sun says:
we should do that
Unconquered Sun says:
they'll agree
Unconquered Sun says:
as gunpowder is on the way to rifling
Unconquered Sun says:
and then
Unconquered Sun says:
we have the big argument
oyzar says:
that way going cold after getting lib and then get chem would be much easier(how expensive is chem vs steel, if it is big enough diff we could go cold from we get lib until they finish chem)
Unconquered Sun says:
we'll have a very hard time convincing them away from Rifling
Unconquered Sun says:
chem is ~67%
oyzar says:
how many beakers?
Unconquered Sun says:
maybe a bit less
oyzar says:
well guilds is a prereq for gunpowder(saving beakers)
Unconquered Sun says:
on deity its 3048 and 4732 I think
Unconquered Sun says:
might be off with a few hundred
oyzar says:
multiplier is 1.495
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
regardless, those numbers aren't far off
Unconquered Sun says:
guilds is expensive...on the other hand we need bank in serpente
oyzar says:
chem is 1800 base
Unconquered Sun says:
and economics with GM is always a deal
oyzar says:
steel 2800
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
can we get a 2nd GS from kaz in time to lightbulb chem?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
to take steel from lib?
oyzar says:
when is in time?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
before someone else gets lib
oyzar says:
you know we can go cold after getting lib right?

oyzar says:
(not log in and wait for kaz to finish tech X then log in get tech X and then take a tech with tech X as prereq)
Unconquered Sun says:
ah
Unconquered Sun says:
yes
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I'm still lost on this
Unconquered Sun says:
that gives us 1-2 extra turns
Unconquered Sun says:
we dont log
Unconquered Sun says:
and Kaz diplo screen has priority over Lib
Unconquered Sun says:
am I correct
oyzar says:
you don't chose a tech from lib until you log in
oyzar says:
diplo screen comes before you chose tech
oyzar says:
so you can recive techs
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I see now
oyzar says:
so you want steel optics and theocracy?
oyzar says:
that way we can build 2 promo carracks even
oyzar says:
5 move carracks
oyzar says:
6 more galleons


oyzar says:
sentry boats
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
can carracks pillage?
Unconquered Sun says:
good question
oyzar says:
sure?
Unconquered Sun says:
caravels cant
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
caravels can't
oyzar says:
they can't?
oyzar says:
O_o
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
no
oyzar says:
i didn't know that
Unconquered Sun says:
not anymore
Unconquered Sun says:
they used to a long time ago
Unconquered Sun says:
maybe pre-bts
oyzar says:
see, we learn so many things today
Unconquered Sun says:
we need to check carracks, caravels cant even blockade



Unconquered Sun says:
I think carracks can tho
Spr|g says:
very powerful if they can.


Unconquered Sun says:
sancta's UU can pillage/blockade and btw hold well v frigates

ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
carracks can't pillage. I've just checked the xml
Unconquered Sun says:
blockade?
Unconquered Sun says:
interfere with tiles worked?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I'll have a look
Unconquered Sun says:
normal caravels can only block workboats from improving seafood
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I can't find anything on it
Unconquered Sun says:
will test in a game
Unconquered Sun says:
3.19 tomorrow
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
ok

 

[Unconquered Sun]

World builder tests indicate Carracks cannot pillage or interfere with trade routes. However, the very tile the carrack is on cannot be worked; so we can block all of SANCTA's seafood. Caravels work the same way.

All known SANCTA coastal cities are on hills, making defending them with lbows easy.

 

[Rusten]

Sitting on the seafood with a carrack won't stop them from getting the resource itself though. We can stop them from getting some food, but they'd still get their health.

 

[oyzar]

Inner sanctum is not on a hill. That is their best coastal city...

 

[oyzar]

More long chats on msn. We discuss how to get more workers faster. That markets should be built before unis (and hence oxford). We are left with some unanswered questions however.

HE where? Coastal or vinheda? Where coastal if so? NE in ohlo? If not where? Moai in colina cavalos(or drop it)? Build order in colina cavalos(what priority do courthouse/workers/moai/library/uni have)? Budhism in colina cavalos or porto escravos? and the big one about getting kaz to agree with us that steel > rifling

Spoiler :

oyzar sier:
kaz got edu
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
great
oyzar sier :
i think to (2 pop) whip in paraiso this turn
not sure what to build next though(market or uni)
or maybe even workers
oyzar sier :
I guess it can start on a uni and whip it when needed(or whip workers in between)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier :
can we have a screenshot?
oyzar sier :
I guess
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
if you are logged in
oyzar sier:
I am not
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
then nvm
oyzar sier:
61 hammers into the courthouse now
grows next turn
to size 11
there isn't really any reason to not whip
oyzar sier:
sombra can start on another worker, or a uni after it's current worker(finish at end of turn)
oyzar sier:
or it could build a courthouse
oyzar sier:
ohlo grows in 5 and wants to steal another tile from sombra(sombra can start growing onto the farms that are there shortly)
oyzar sier:
likewise in cimera(though that is one turn behind in building a worker i belive) can build a worker or uni or market next
oyzar sier:
colina cavalos can start on library soon(can even work the grassland forest hill) and then two pop whip it, or it can just whip the courthouse and then workers and keep on whipping workers(overflow into moai) for a while...
oyzar sier:
the reason to work the grassland forest hill is to get exactly 14 hammers instead of 10 hammers into the library, if that wasn't obvious
oyzar sier:
and in porto cavalos the idea was to put another turn into the lbow then 3 pop whip the courthouse,but you should already know that if you read the update
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
Paraiso: yes, whip it. Overflow will be minimal, but I'd build a market next. That will give more bang for your buck than a uni since we can't afford to do any research. Building workers with excess food is inefficient (especially with expansive), so this city won't be building workers.
oyzar sier:
it can whip workers tho
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
yes. when there are excess pop to be whipped, it can whip workers
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
and overflow back to market/uni
oyzar sier:
so you don't like the idea of speeding unis everywhere for oxford then?
rune wanted to prioritize that compared to other infrastructure
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
it is good, but it doesn't pay off compared to saving more gold at 0%, and then getting Oxford a little later once those cottages at Serpente have matured a little
oyzar sier:
that was my "hunch" too, but i haven't calced it, have you?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
no
oyzar sier:
rusten's hunch was the other way(unis then oxford in serpente)
oyzar sier:
the unis themselves are obviously worse than the markets
but oxford is pretty strong
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
it's close. Markets before Unis has the advantage that Serpente has plenty of time to build its uni, and then go onto Wealth to save chops (while chopping for Oxford, without having to have many workers all chopping at Serpente at the same time)
oyzar sier:
wealth better than just building workers?
oyzar sier:
it is making 24+ hammers per turn
+100 for 400 hammers
same as +25 for 100
but with a slider at ~30 market is actually better
(or grocer)
oyzar sier:
though we are doing discrete teching so we just have to time it correctly
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
fair enough. That way I guess we'll actually have enough workers to do it
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
I think, which one is better depends on how far away our next 100% phase is
oyzar sier:
at 33% 75 hammers per +25% would be worth it compared to a market
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
if it is soon, we build unis, go to 100%, build markets, go back to 0%, build Observatories, back to 100%, build banks, back to 0%, etc.
oyzar sier:
our next 100% phase is so we can get compass and optics i belive, they aren't too expensive, 3 turns of teching i belive(and we will get gold for that), that is after PP ofc
and our slider will be higher then too(due to pp)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
how many turns away is that?
oyzar sier:
well this turn we likely go 0%
oyzar sier:
afterwards it is 100% until we get lib(maybe with PP in between depends on what other things happen)
oyzar sier:
(other things are diplo with kaz and what SANCTA do)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier:
we're unlikely to be able to get Oxford before we finish that phase, so I'd go for markets firs
oyzar sier:
finish what phase? optics?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:51):
to improve the gold rate during the next 0% phase. Liberalism
oyzar sier (18:51):
ah yeah
we are not going to make oxford in time for that certainly
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:52):
so I'd go with markets (assuming we won't get gold from others to pay for our cities)
oyzar sier (18:52):
so this brings us back to what next in sombra?
a worker? courthouse? market(might get shrine here with a GP)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:52):
I'd whip it right now, build a 1-turn worker next turn, and then market
oyzar sier (18:52):
and we do get what gold MS have left over after paying kaz
you want to whip cimera this turn?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:54):
I'll take another quick look at it
oyzar sier (18:54):
or sombra?
or both?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:55):
both. Both can get a 1-turn worker next turn if we whip now
oyzar sier (18:56):
they can?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:56):
yeah
oyzar sier (18:56):
you cacled that right?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:56):
I'm pretty sure
sombra isn't even close
oyzar sier (18:56):
isn't even close to what?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:56):
as the worker is almost done anyway
oyzar sier (18:57):
it is just one pop tho, not two
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:57):
so we get 37h + 2 turns of production on the next one next turn
it makes 24h right now IIRC
oyzar sier (18:57):
21
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:58):
yeah, 21
In cimera, we have 27/60 and a forge. It makes 24h+3f
oyzar sier (18:58):
how many hammers into the worker right now?
oyzar sier (18:59):
in sombra i mean
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (18:59):
53
oyzar sier (19:00):
53+37=90+21=111-60=51/1.25=40 55*1.25=68+1=69
bah, lose 1.6 hammers to rounding
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:01):
there's not an awful lot that can be done about that
oyzar sier (19:01):
at least 9 rounds to 6
what base hammers in cimera?
19?
oh
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:01):
16
oyzar sier (19:01):
sorry
14*1.4=21
oyzar sier (19:03):
27+45=72+21=93+4=97-60=37/1.5=24
(24+14)*1.5=57+4=60
so it works exactly
oyzar sier (19:04):
we want to wait to get philo and edu until we actually get the next turn(not this one) due to civknow mods
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:04):
yeah
oyzar sier (19:04):
57+4=61 btw
but no overflow
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:04):
yeah
oyzar sier (19:04):
nice eyeballing that one
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:05):
well, I did the calcs, except without working out the rounding errors
just using the rule of thumb that we will lose one hammer of overflow
oyzar sier (19:05):
so whipping those 3 cities sounds like a plan
oyzar sier (19:06):
when and what do we want to whip in colina cavalos
any idea about that?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:06):
I'll take a look
oyzar sier (19:06):
and we want to 3 pop whip courthouse not this turn but the next in porto cavalos
options include but are not limited to, worker, courthouse, library
bbl
oyzar sier (19:07):
brb maybe
it isn't more than like 5 min
hoplo, you caught up with the game yet?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:07):
ok, bye for now
oyzar sier (19:08):
i'll read what you say when i come back
so don't stop commenting just cause i am gone
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:10):
OK, Colina Cavalos - I think a worker to be whipped for 2 pop, with overflow going into the courthouse in progress. It needs a second worker more than it needs to work those grassland farms to grow ever-more-expensive whipping population
oyzar sier (19:13):
back
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:14):
I'm trying to find the Porto Cavalos discussion
oyzar sier (19:14):
overflow into courthouse and not into moai?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:14):
where is it?
oyzar sier (19:14):
on msn
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:14):
it's building moai?
oyzar sier (19:14):
or in played turns thread
it is the best place to build moai
but if it is also building university at some point there might be better options
and growing onto farms is better than not doing so i thought?
oyzar sier (19:15):
why does it need a second worker? It got litterally no tiles to improve
oyzar sier (19:16):
but i guess there are workers needed for the southern cities too...
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:16):
that's true. Unfortunately, I have to go to dinner - I'll be back in ~25min. I'll log out but leave messenger on
oyzar sier (19:16):
so 2 pop whipping a worker might be better than whipping the courthouse for example
oyzar sier (19:18):
a courthouse there saves us something like 6 gold per turn and also give 2 ep, is a worker now(rather than a worker once it grows back) better?
oyzar sier (19:19):
Obviously it isn't going to grow much onto those water tiles(at least not before moai) and as such should whip worker every time it aproaches them, but I was under the impression that growing onto a farm and then working it was better for food rather than whipping earlier
I should go make dinner too
oyzar sier (19:22):
growing one more size only cost one more food, but a farm gives 2 extra food(for two turns worked) growing to size 6 cost 16 food(32 food and you imeadiatly get 16 back) while growing to size 7 cost 17(34 food and you get 17 back)
oyzar sier (19:24):
problem with working the farms is ofc that it is "stealing" them from paraiso
oyzar sier (19:30):
Cimera will actually build worker -> worker -> worker 1 turn each
due to the chop
oyzar sier (19:36):
there is a worker chopping there i belive
oyzar sier (19:39):
Zhou is actually a great spot for globe, but we need drama first...
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:40):
back now
oyzar sier (19:41):
the forest shared by porto escravos and paraiso, where should it go?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:41):
what is porto escravos working on/planning?
oyzar sier (19:41):
courthouse -> FP
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:41):
is it still FP city?
ok
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:42):
then it should go to porto escravos
oyzar sier (19:42):
do you have any better ideas for FP?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:42):
that is more important than a market in paraiso
not off the top of my head
oyzar sier (19:42):
we want biggest short term effect from it
due to SP being the civic of choice in the future
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:42):
yeah
oyzar sier (19:43):
6 sushi
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:43):
which means we want to place it quickly near large cities which are a long way away from the capital
oyzar sier (19:43):
4 mining
size doesn't actually have anything to say for distance maitenance
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:43):
yeah, definitely a SP map
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:44):
doesn't it? I'm sure it does
maybe I just observe the total, when it is only #cities maintenance which increases with size
oyzar sier (19:44):
hmm it might actually
nm
oyzar sier (19:45):
much higher in paraiso than porto
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:45):
they are 3 tiles apart?
if so, distance maintenance will be minimal either way
and porto has more forests to chop IIRC
oyzar sier (19:46):
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/764/civ4screenshot0588.jpg given this i think we should build a road E of colina cavalos
or do you rather want budhism in one of the others
all 3 of those want budhism bad...
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:47):
it depends how quickly we want to get moai there
oyzar sier (19:47):
you saw the part about growing one size further rather than whipping earlier right?
oyzar sier (19:48):
(as long as it grows onto a farm)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:48):
yeah. I need to do the calcs myself to fully understand it, but what you say looks right.
oyzar sier (19:48):
however whipping a worker / courthouse gets the benefit of those things earlier instead
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:48):
I think porto wants Buddhism more than colina
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:49):
yes
oyzar sier (19:49):
Porto? just for FP?
oyzar sier (19:50):
oh and courthouse vs market in sombra?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:51):
with all those forests going to be chopped soon (how soon are we thinking? Is 10 turns reasonable?), they want the OrgRel bonus (in porto) more than any of the other things, since that is the main source of production outside the whip in that city
Do we already have enough courthouses for FP?
If so, I'd say almost certainly market in sombra
otherwise
oyzar sier (19:52):
we have 0 courthouses atm
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:52):
That... changes things a little
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:53):
then porto doesn't need buddhism just yet
oyzar sier (19:53):
um
paraiso, vinheda, zhou, porto cavalos, colina cavalos, porto escravos all get courthouses shortly
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:54):
so we need 2 more
oyzar sier (19:54):
this is standard map
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:54):
oh yeah. 6 courts, 8 cities
my bad
then market
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:55):
in sombra
oyzar sier (19:56):
it's only making like 22 commerce(though it might get shrine)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:58):
well, it has a couple of trade routes as well, but how much is maintenance for that city? I can't imagine it is more than 5 or 6 gpt. And the commerce will increase with the immenent PP bulb
oyzar sier (19:58):
~8
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:58):
ok
oyzar sier (19:59):
courthouse is +4 gold +2 ep
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (19:59):
is there a way to speed up the GP in ohlo so that we know what the GP is before we have to decide?
oyzar sier (19:59):
market +5(soon 6, 8 after shrine, if we get a prophet)
oyzar sier (20:00):
the GP pops in 2 turns, or 2 if MoM gives points on the first turn it is built(I think it does actually, since NE do double at least, not 100% sure though)
oyzar sier (20:01):
in 3 turns*
Rune sier (20:02):
hi peeps
just played my first ladder cton
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:02):
ok, so we know in 2 turns. It's doing 2 turns of workers, right? If it pops a prophet then we definitely want a market. Otherwise, I still prefer the market (out of disregard for the EPs), but not by that much
hi Rusten
how'd it go?
Rune sier (20:03):
won
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:03):
blazing turn timer is certainly something to get used to. Well done!
Rune sier (20:03):
it's a pain -- especially with a slow comp
but I'm used to RTS so no biggie
Rune sier (20:04):
will read up on the conversation in a moment
oyzar sier (20:04):
we might know in 3
if MoM doesn't give GPP first turn
but it is doing 2 turns of workers yes
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:04):
ok. I played one earlier today, had gold in the cap! - no copper or horses in sight, iron in an indefensible desert location with no food hills or forests
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:05):
I think it does, but I'm not sure
Either it did in vanilla, but doesn't now, or the other way around
oyzar sier (20:09):
who said wonderspamming didn't work in MP? we are clearly wonderspamming
Rune sier (20:09):
btw, I fully support markets before universities
our economy is in shambles
no use getting OU if we have a 20% slider
Rune sier (20:10):
this isn't "MP"
Rune sier (20:12):
is there a team in our alliance focusing on wealth multipliers?
that's much better than everyone doing all of them
oyzar sier (20:12):
MS should do so
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:12):
mad scientists
oyzar sier (20:13):
i think they haven't built any multipliers so far though(maybe a library or two, to run scientists)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:13):
but they aren't enough to pay for both kaz and us
to research, and kaz have higher science multipliers
Rune sier (20:13):
Kaz has beefed up banks later on
but it's a while to go still
oyzar sier (20:24):
um i am not sure kaz will get to those banks
or if they will they will build units instead...
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:25):
that's what 10 turn peace treaties are for
oyzar sier (20:25):
why did you say you wanted OU before markets earlier then(at least that was my impression) our slider is at about 25% right now, but will go higher as we get 6-8 courthouses 3 more markets a shrine and PP
Rune sier (20:25):
never said that
Rune sier (20:26):
I said it was a priority
oyzar sier (20:26):
lol
Rune sier (20:26):
needed to single out 6 cities
Rune sier (20:27):
but markets are 150 hammers so I wouldn't get too many
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:27):
just in the commerce cities
Rune sier (20:27):
yes, the top ones
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:27):
they don't pay elsewhere
oyzar sier (20:28):
well we only have ~4 commerce cities(I guess joias could get a market or at least a bank at some point too)
oyzar sier (20:35):
so
in colina cavalos
worker, courthouse, moai, uni, what priorities?
oh
and the mace
since we aren't sending settler north
send him east?
oyzar sier (20:36):
or west and wait for carracks?
I was mistaken when i said we don't have dye, we get from kaz
oyzar sier (20:37):
though we don't really have happiness problems atm
oyzar sier (20:38):
I've gotten over 100 turns from drafting before, I wonder if I can do the same for the whip in zhou
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:39):
I presume that in building moai, we want to create an auxillary naval production city. We want it to be done in time for our extended golden age, when the tiles will be at their best
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:40):
so perhaps we could pair it with HE at Ohlo, and build NE at Colina
oyzar sier (20:40):
what do you mean auxilliary naval production city?
NE at colina??
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:41):
a city capable of producing ships in reasonable time, but not neccesarily at the pace of our best production cities.
For other uses, it just doesn't pay off without stone
oyzar sier (20:41):
oh rusten did you read about US wanting HE in a coastal city
oyzar sier (20:42):
did you mix up HE and NE?
Colina cavalos doesn't really have much in the way of food
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:43):
me? no. Colina has fish, lighthouse lakes and a couple of farms. I suggested it, because it is the most appropriate city in the screenshot.
oyzar sier (20:44):
well colina cavalos is not going to make much in the way of gpp or commerce, so it is best for whipping, it can also work coast however...
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:44):
If we have some other location, then it can go there, but I thought we didn't have anywhere with several food bonuses.
oyzar sier (20:44):
ohlo have enough food to run 7 specialists and got 4 wonders
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:44):
but yeah, it's not an ideal GP farm
oyzar sier (20:44):
colina cavalos got enough foor to run 4 specialists...
oyzar sier (20:45):
food*
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:45):
we can run specialists or work mines to build units
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:46):
but ok, I see your point about it as a GP farm in the short term, and then units later
oyzar sier (20:47):
you want moai in ohlo?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:47):
not sure.
oyzar sier (20:48):
I don't think it will ever pay off there, in colina cavalos it will pay off eventually(it always want to work the lakes + the fish, and it doesn't have a lot of land tiles)
oyzar sier (20:49):
I still like HE in vinheda...
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:49):
There are good arguments for HE+NE, but in an ideal world we could put three NW in Ohlo
I agree with USun about HE in a coastal city
oyzar sier (20:50):
HE + globe in zhou
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:50):
how much food does zhou have?
oyzar sier (20:50):
cows and wheat
oyzar sier (20:50):
and some grass tiles
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:51):
the globe is for an infinite whipping/drafting farm?
oyzar sier (20:51):
yes(most useful for drafting obviously)
Rune sier (20:51):
HE+Globe sucks
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:51):
but that requires us not to be in bureaucracu
Rune sier (20:51):
unless we're not going to use nationalism
oyzar sier (20:52):
with the empire we are looking at mid to late game nationhood beats out nationhood on upkeep alone
um burrecracy
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:52):
hehe
Rune sier (20:52):
I don't have a strong opinion on where to put the HE (coastal or not)
oyzar sier (20:52):
but yes, before that period of time I don't imagine we will stay in nationhood for too long
Rune sier (20:52):
can see the argument for coastal
Rune sier (20:53):
but there are drydocks to help with naval production
land troops have no equivalent
oyzar sier (20:53):
extra useful tiles?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:54):
like mountains and desert?
Rune sier (20:54):
no need for tiles if you're whipping
oyzar sier (20:54):
you going to whip away those extra 2f4h tiles?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:54):
presumably we will be in caste for the workshop bonus
oyzar sier (20:55):
so you don't want moai in colina cavalos?
Rune sier (20:55):
as long as we get circumnavigation we're good until destroyers
ironclads can handle the early ships
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:56):
I don't think it will ever pay off, unless we use it to produce more ships than we could otherwise
Rune sier (20:56):
but it gets tricky at that point
oyzar sier (20:56):
aha
Rune sier (20:56):
but tbh I don't have much experience with naval MP war
oyzar sier (20:56):
it is 7 hammers
Rune sier (20:56):
only play inland sea
oyzar sier (20:56):
it cost 200 hammers
oyzar sier (20:57):
so pay off after ~30 turns
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:57):
we will work the 7 coastal tiles?
oyzar sier (20:57):
even more if we work 2f1h1c ocean
it has 3 land tiles
Rune sier (20:57):
pays off faster if we play to launch GAs
that's the main benefit of Moai
Rune sier (20:58):
you suddenly find yourself with 2H
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:58):
yeah - from what I understand, we will be having our GAs before we can complete Moai there
Rune sier (20:58):
in that case I don't see it ever paying off
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (20:58):
which was my point
oyzar sier (20:59):
hmm, does it take that long to get moai?
Rune sier (20:59):
yes, I agree with you
oyzar sier (20:59):
or are we launching the GA's so soon?
I haven't actually calced it, but with overflow from whips it shouldn't take centuries to get it
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:01):
Well, with OR it can manage 10hpt
once the hill is mined
oyzar sier (21:01):
that's only 20 turns, much less with overflow from whips
a worker gives almost full overflow
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:04):
a worker gives a lot of overflow, but it only gives us 2F1H tiles (+commerce), and for production we would whip those away rather than work them
*it=Moai
except during the GAs
hmm
Perhaps I'll come around tomorrow
*shrug*
oyzar sier (21:04):
um
oyzar sier (21:05):
if we are going to whip only every ~10 turns we can't whip away all those tiles
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:06):
well, our happiness cap is quite large, and we can whip 3 or more pop at once
oyzar sier (21:06):
I was just thinking that building Moai there was better than not building Moai at all...
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:06):
but I'm just being argumentative now
oyzar sier (21:07):
ofc without OR it will take a bit longer to build moai there
oyzar sier (21:08):
but that was part of the discussion, wether to spread budhism there or in porto escravos
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:08):
well, IMO it is more important in escravos
which has forests to chop for FP
oyzar sier (21:09):
how does missionaries match up vs courthouse vs market in sombra/cimera?
40 hammer forges are kinda nice
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:09):
40 hammer forges? We're not Industrious
oyzar sier (21:10):
missionaries cost 40 hammers
as long as we are in Or they are pseudo forges
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:10):
Oh, ok
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:11):
esp when you can invest the hammers somewhere else
Rune sier (21:11):
builder forges
did we get our GP yet btw?
oyzar sier (21:11):
2 turns left
Rune sier (21:11):
didn't read the played turns
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:11):
3 turns
oyzar sier (21:12):
2 turns if gpp works as i think
we discussed it above
Rune sier (21:12):
would really love to get a prophet
oyzar sier (21:12):
34% chance to get a prophet
Pinman sier (21:12):
I am currently idle.
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:12):
if a GSpy, will you bomb SANCTA?
would be nice to see into their cities
oyzar sier (21:13):
i think going GA is better, but we can send it that way while we wait to start it
visibility is rather good if/when we are going to war them though
more like when
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:13):
lets us know whether there is a chance to do a sneak carrack attack
or else we should just bluff and send empty carracks
oyzar sier (21:13):
well, just by staying over there he can reveal the chance for carrack attack
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:13):
yes
oyzar sier (21:14):
a gspy can't ever die right?
so there is no reason not to send it over there
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:14):
only if it gets nuked
or other wierd circumstances
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:15):
it could be intercepted on an airlift
oyzar sier (21:15):
and it isn't realistic that it will get nuked
oyzar sier (21:16):
is it possible to intercept airlifts???
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:16):
I think so. I haven't used airlifting extensively, though
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:17):
I think if there is an enemy fighter running intercept over the target city, there is a chance the unit dies instead of moves
oyzar sier (21:17):
an enemy fighter have 100% chance of intercept
so that would be pretty hefty
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:18):
like paratroopers being intercepted - that's just feeding (insert metaphor here)
oyzar sier (21:18):
i didn't know paratroopers could be intercepted either
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:18):
they definitely can - I've seen it on the forums
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:19):
and paras have no air combat ability
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:20):
so they have 0% combat odds in the air
oyzar sier (21:21):
So what unanswered questions do we have atm? HE where? Coastal or vinheda? Where coastal if so? NE in ohlo? If not where? Moai in colina cavalos(or drop it)? Build order in colina cavalos(what priority do courthouse/workers/moai/library/uni have)? Budhism in colina cavalos or porto escravos?
oh and the big one about getting kaz to agree with us that steel > rifling
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:22):
tell them Ironworks. Steel works better.
oyzar sier (21:22):
Ironworks? with their civ?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:23):
do they have any production cities?
oyzar sier (21:23):
they are trying to produce stuff everywhere at least
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:23):
ok, any city with several mines, and enough food to run them
oyzar sier (21:23):
What are your answers atm on those questions? Rune? ZPV?
oyzar sier (21:26):
hmm i should get an overview screenie of kaz this turn i guess
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:26):
HE not sure. NE Ohlo. Moai not sure. It's 250h btw. Build order in colina cavalos - not sure. Buddhism in escravos. There's a reason they're called unanswered questions
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:27):
For Moai I'd say no way in SP. Not sure if that applies here
oyzar sier (21:27):
we need to answer them if we are to play on(at least at some point, preferably asap), and yes 250 normally, 200 with OR
what do you mean no way in SP? what does SP have to do with it? that city is not going to work more than 3 land tiles(and at some point we will leave slavery)
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:28):
single player
not state property
oyzar sier (21:28):
why wouldn't you build it in SP?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:28):
the game would be over before it pays back
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:29):
the opportunity cost of building workers, etc
oyzar sier (21:29):
it pays off after 50 turns from this point
Rune sier (21:29):
that's misleading
because hammers are worth more now than later
oyzar sier (21:29):
yes
oyzar sier (21:30):
sooner if we launch 3 consecutive GA's after 30 turns from now though
oyzar sier (21:31):
but i can definatly agree with that there is a rather large opportunity cost of not building workers instead
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:31):
I wonder if the balance between now and later is different from this sort of game than single player
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (21:32):
because it is harder to roll over an enemy with land troops here
oyzar sier (21:32):
well once you are in combat now is worth a lot more than later, but if you are not....
oyzar sier (21:33):
so yes it might be different
oyzar sier (21:34):
rune you got any enlightening answers to those questions?
Rune sier (21:34):
not really
oyzar sier (21:34):
we could build HE in cabo cavalos
Rune sier (21:35):
only one I'm sure about is NE in Ohlo