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Muslim Shrine graphics error

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Bug Reports' started by Stacmon, Dec 11, 2006.

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Should Firaxis replace the Masjid Al-Haram's graphic?

  1. Yes, in the interest of accuracy, quality and religious sensitivity.

    40 vote(s)
    60.6%
  2. It doesn't matter.

    22 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. No, this doesn't affect gameplay.

    4 vote(s)
    6.1%
  1. Stacmon

    Stacmon Explorer

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    Those of you with some background knowledge in the areas of current affairs, history or Islam have probably noticed that the graphic for the Muslim Shrine, called "The Masjid Al-Haram," actually represents the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, rather than the correct structure in Mecca.

    I wasn't aware of any formal letter/e-mail sent to Firaxis to address the issue, so I decided to send one myself. I contacted a person responsible for Fan Concerns and eagerly await a reply.

    Because I think this is a serious oversight, I believe it warrants attention and should be remedied. Imagine if the Church of the Nativity had a graphic representing the Vatican, or that the Dome of the Rock was used for Judaism's Temple of Solomon instead of the Masjid Al-Haram. I hope that I have the community's support regarding the matter, and encourage people to post here if they agree (as well as vote in the poll). Attention to detail and quality in a game like this is very important, and I feel that movement on the part of the game's developers is only likely if others show the same concern that I do.

    The following is the exact e-mail that I sent to Firaxis, for those of you who are interested:

    Now the ball is in your court.
     
  2. Tristan daCunha

    Tristan daCunha Pacifist Aggressive

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    Stacmon, thank you for pointing this error out to us. Yes, it is important to get such details right. And Firaxis has already remedied a similar mix-up involving the leader portraits of Kublai Khan and Qin Shi Huang, so there is precedent for correcting their mistake in a patch or expansion.

    Do you think they will need to hear from more fans, or will your email stir them to action?
     
  3. SharpMango

    SharpMango If in doubt, just axe!

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    Good post,
    yes i noticed that error too,
    but i dont know how much i would want to see the Kabaa represented in a game...since that site is considered verrrrrrry holy...
    perhaps changing the name of the Masjid Al-haram to the Dome of the Rock would be more appropriate???
     
  4. Sadan01

    Sadan01 Conical Flask

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    Can anyone else smell a thread lock coming?

    Geez Mutineer, settle down. I don't think CivFanatics is the place to be discussing pro's and con's of Islam or religion in general. In fact, it is irrelevant when coming back to the original topic of this thread. The fact is this, a graphic is clearly incorrect when signifying a holy place. This does need to be corrected, or at the very least, it needs someone from Firaxis to advise the community that, for whatever reason, they cannot do it so it is up to the community to create/change it. Civilization has mostly prided itself on being as historically accurate as possible so I think this needs to be corrected. Your beliefs Mutineer are not needed, nor warranted in this case. And no, I am not a follower of Islam (or any religion in particular) however I still respect people for their own individual beliefs. Just as I would like anyone else to respect me for my individual beliefs.
     
  5. lost_civantares

    lost_civantares [Insert Title]

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    Personally it doesn't bother me much, but if they'll fix it it's good to have it correct I guess. :)
     
  6. Stylesjl

    Stylesjl SOS Brigade Member

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    I never knew that was an error

    Good thing you brought it to Firaxis's attention
     
  7. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Moderator Action: Chode and Mutineer warned for threadjacking and flaming. If you want to debate, take it to Off Topic. Remember, this is only a game. Don't get so worked up about it.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  8. Fire.Soul

    Fire.Soul Chieftain

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    I TRULY hope it is corrected in future patches by Firaxis, once it is important to the game's historical accuracy. The Civilopedia is one of the game's most interesting pluses, and the accuracy of its information is obviously important for interested players.

    Good job for having spotted the mistake. ;)
     
  9. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    although not in any way believer, I think having an error on something that easy to correct is not acceptable. It should be corrected.
     
  10. Stacmon

    Stacmon Explorer

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    Thanks to everyone for their responses and votes.

    It's a shame that this topic was moved from General Discussion to Bug Reports, as I was convinced more people would see the topic there than here.

    In fact, I'd go so far as to not consider this a bug at all. The Kublai Khan and Qin Shi Huang could be thought of as one, since both portraits exist in the game and it was likely a coding oversight that initially switched them. To me, a bug is an error in coding while this is a huge mistake regarding accuracy.

    In any case, I yield to the Moderators on this one, who are trying to do their best to organize the threads on these forums. This after all isn't the main topic.

    If it's possible, I hope that Civfanatics would consider making a news item, and linking to this thread on the main site. I feel that would get a huge portion of the community (at least those that use Civfanatics) to become aware of the problem and thread. If something like this was done, a grass roots attempt to show Firaxis that an issue like this is important to players, we'd see movement on the issue.

    Lastly, I would have loved to see Chode and Mutineer's statements regarding my post. Other users' responses seemed to suggest they were fairly harsh. Since they've been erased, which I'm sure is warranted, I wonder if there's any way of seeing them (or anyone has them saved) and could please send me them as a PM.

    Thanks again for the interest.
     
  11. Phallus

    Phallus Freudian Slip

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    I agree with this proposal on grounds of accuracy and quality, but it would be a shame if 'religious sensitivity' ever had to encroach on a simple graphical misrepresentation such as this.

    This simply avoids the topic by censoring any reference to the holiest site in Islam. It doesn't solve anything.
     
  12. Stacmon

    Stacmon Explorer

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    When I mentioned religious insensitivity, I was referring to the possible unwillingness to make a necessary change. In my opinion, such unwillingness to fix a blatant error would be extremely unlikely if the error had been made to a prominent Christian building or holy site. That is not to say that Firaxis prefers one religion over another, but simply that the demographics of Civ players overwhelmingly favour those with Christian backgrounds. The risk of alienating such a large segment of their market would make it feasible to invest the time and money to create a suitable replacement for the out of place model.

    That's why I'm hoping people support this update regardless of religious affiliation or background. Those of us that value Civ IV for its Civilopedia and historical accuracy (especially within some mods and scenarios) can agree that an accurate Muslim shrine would add a lot to the game. Islam has had a tremendous impact on every culture that it has interacted with (no matter what you think of the religion), and is followed by about 1/5th of the world's population.

    Thanks for all of the replies and votes so far! Tell others and hopefully we'll see some movement from Firaxis.
     
  13. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I´m with you in this one, Stacmon. :)
     
  14. SharpMango

    SharpMango If in doubt, just axe!

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    i dont particularly see it as censorship, im no techie but i can imagine it would be considerably easier to change the name, then it is to change the graphic..
    and also to a large degree the holy places chosen do tend to be arbritary, because of course different sites have different importances to different people....

    and for your knowledge..the direction of the dome (which of course was just a rock at the time) was the FIRST direction towards which muslims prayed, before they started praying towards Makkah......
    so in a way it has similar importance to the church of the nativity...to use a poor analogy... so to use the dome would be perfectly acceptable from a muslim point of view, the name just needs changing.....and like i said before....it is easier to make the name change then it is to change the graphics....
     
  15. Stacmon

    Stacmon Explorer

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    I agree with you on a few points Mango, but I still prefer the Masjid Al-Haram as the choice for the Muslim Holy shrine. It is clear that this was the original intent of the game designers, as the shrine's name and Civilopedia description are for the Masjid Al-Haram.

    Personally I don't see the replacement of the model as that much work, they will just have to find someone willing to devote a bit of time to doing it. As I mentioned in the letter I sent them, I feel that members of the community would be willing to take on the work, if they knew that their contribution would make it into the game (assuming they won't have their employees do it).

    Personally I think renaming the shrine and changing the Civilopedia entry (to the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem) would be an absolute minimum. Leaving it as it is just ignores a glaring error.
     
  16. Underseer

    Underseer King

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    Any proper Civilization fan is fastidious and anally retentive to the point of comedy, so yes, this should be fixed in the name of accuracy. ;)

    It would probably be easier for the developers to change the text rather than to change the graphic.
     
  17. Phallus

    Phallus Freudian Slip

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    I realise the Dome of the Rock is and was significant, but it doesn't compare to Makkah which is easily recognisable as the holy city of Islam.

    I do see your point, but then I doubt Firaxis would have been any quicker to correct an inaccuracy in the Christian shrine as such attention to detail is rare in any game.
     
  18. Stacmon

    Stacmon Explorer

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    Well we're not really talking about attention to detail here. There's no dispute about the exact colour of the east wall of some obscure wonder, or its size relative to other buildings in a city. We're talking here about the holiest site of the world's second largest religion, depicted in countless pieces of artwork and photographs. They didn't make a minor error when trying to create the model for it (such as adding an additional minaret, forgetting one of the smaller domes, etc.), they created a representation of a completely different building :crazyeye:.
     
  19. Kizor

    Kizor Chieftain

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    I'm Christian and wouldn't really care if the Church of the Nativity did have the Vatican, but neither of them is half as important to us. Anyway, you mentioned the Civilopedia - is there a problem with that as well, or just with the image? I'm involved in a translation project and could fix the entry there independently.
     
  20. Stacmon

    Stacmon Explorer

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    Well, the problem with the Civilopedia is related to the name. Basically, everything aside from the actual model/graphic of the Masjid Al-Haram is consistent with the correct building.

    This is what suggests to me that this wasn't intentional, but rather a slip up that was never corrected.

    UPDATE: After about 4 days, I still haven't received any reply from Firaxis. I'm starting to think they just don't care :cry:.
     

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